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Thread: What do you think of Switzerland as example of a Delta culture

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    Default What do you think of Switzerland as example of a Delta culture

    Please ignore the question if you know little to nothing about the country. I want to listen opinions from those who actually know something about it.

    Switzerland is the only modern example of a Delta culture that comes to my mind. It's peaceful, stable and highly developed, both economically and socially. It's the birth place of some of the most important organizations of the entire world (like the red cross, for example). Yet the country seems to suffer from stagnation. Also, a lot of foreigners complain that the Swiss are conservative and xenophobic/elitist.

    I can explain the last part through the aristocratic nature of the quadra. Yet I can't really explain the stagnation. Is it the end of the socion cycle? When everything works fine, then there is no need to change anything and one stops looking for new things. Eventually it becomes a routine to keep the system working, but it doesn't produce anything.
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    Makes sense to me, from what I've read (which isn't a lot, so I can't really add anything). I'm going there at the end of the year to see some family

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    I've never been to Switzerland, but I've been fascinated by its political system. It's possibly the closest country to a true direct democracy, like ancient Athens. There's lots of referendums - people often get to vote on individual bills, rather than electing some clown to do it for them who they probably disagree with most of the time anyway.

    It's also kind of interesting how they've had this habit of being neutral all the time. WW1, WW2...they're not even in the EU are they? But as to what quadra it's from, I'm afraid I wouldn't have a clue.
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    I know Switzerland somewhat, I've been there several times, but never lived or worked there.

    Quote Originally Posted by akeaneau View Post
    It's also kind of interesting how they've had this habit of being neutral all the time. WW1, WW2...they're not even in the EU are they?
    They're not in the EU, and they only joined the United Nations in 2002.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I can explain the last part through the aristocratic nature of the quadra. Yet I can't really explain the stagnation. Is it the end of the socion cycle? When everything works fine, then there is no need to change anything and one stops looking for new things. Eventually it becomes a routine to keep the system working, but it doesn't produce anything.
    It's not that they "don't produce anything". It's more like, there is indeed a feeling, as far as I know, that things are fine as they are and the best thing is to keep it working as it is.
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    They have Ikea and hot chicks. And wicked meatballs! I will be their friend!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    They have Ikea and hot chicks. And wicked meatballs! I will be their friend!
    That's Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I know Switzerland somewhat, I've been there several times, but never lived or worked there.



    They're not in the EU, and they only joined the United Nations in 2002.




    It's not that they "don't produce anything". It's more like, there is indeed a feeling, as far as I know, that things are fine as they are and the best thing is to keep it working as it is.
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    From what I read about this interesting country, the stagnation is caused because they think there's no need to change things. They prefer to work developing theses things rather than changing completly. I think its part from their idiosyncrasy, they feel the best for being a country well-developed with more than a 700 years¿? (actually don't know the exactly years). When you feel you are working your political ideal for a 500 years, did you want to change it? I don't think so. Anyway, this is what I think.
    BTW, I think Switzerland its a very E6 country.

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    From a very personal perspective, I always admired the Swiss political system, and pretty much adopted it as my 'utopian' model when I had to write a good society paper. Then when I visited, I completely fell in love with the place. I was only in Lucerne for a few days, and drove through some other parts, but it probably made the biggest impression on me out of all the European countries I went to. It was just so beautiful. I was walking around by myself one morning, and it just started snowing, and you could look across the lake to the mountains beyond, and it was so magical. I felt completely safe there (it was the only place I ventured out alone in Europe), the people were gorgeous, and well, I wouldn't be able to tell you anything wrong with the place in terms of actually being there.

    And it's not like you walk around there and go 'oh, all they have is the cuckoo clock' (though Patek Phillipe? I'll take that, thanks). Sure, it's calmer and quieter than some other cities, but it is not like it has no life in it. We went out to celebrate a birthday while there, and were drinking all night long in a packed bar. And I mean, comparing it with Italy...I went to Europe expecting to love Italy. And I did. The cities are architectually beautiful, if a little scruffy (but that just added to it really) and the art there would make you weep. But I was stunned, completely and utterly captured instead by Switzerland. I can't even really explain why - I expected to like Italy best. Yet...well. Switzerland stole my heart.

    (And I think the story about the Swiss Guards is incredible and powerful and beautiful too.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by electric View Post
    That's Sweden.
    Oh yeah (moron)

    They make good knives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Oh yeah (moron)
    OK, IT CAN BE WHERE EVER YOU WANT IT TO BE!!

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    Playing a bit of devil's advocate: I think that a lot that drives the "Swiss psyche" is a feeling of isolation, not only of themselves from the outside world, but also within, precisely because the individual cantons are so independent. I think this is driven by a sense of "finding security in isolation", but also some arrogance, as in, why should Switzerland need the rest of the world? But perhaps this is unfair.

    Also, it sounds like a cliche but it's largely true: what allowed them to build up their economy was not only their neutrality - so they not only survived the two world wars but actually profited from them, by trading with everyone - but the famous Swiss banking system, which was, and to a large extent still is, a magnet for all kinds of money, whether legal, shady, illegal, or downright criminal. That they have invested that money wisely, and developed their economy, industry, etc, does not change the origins of the money.

    And yes, the country is beautiful, because of the Alps and the lakes. But you get that in Austria and Northern Italy as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    That's Sweden.
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Playing a bit of devil's advocate: I think that a lot that drives the "Swiss psyche" is a feeling of isolation, not only of themselves from the outside world, but also within, precisely because the individual cantons are so independent. I think this is driven by a sense of "finding security in isolation", but also some arrogance, as in, why should Switzerland need the rest of the world? But perhaps this is unfair.

    Also, it sounds like a cliche but it's largely true: what allowed them to build up their economy was not only their neutrality - so they not only survived the two world wars but actually profited from them, by trading with everyone - but the famous Swiss banking system, which was, and to a large extent still is, a magnet for all kinds of money, whether legal, shady, illegal, or downright criminal. That they have invested that money wisely, and developed their economy, industry, etc, does not change the origins of the money.

    And yes, the country is beautiful, because of the Alps and the lakes. But you get that in Austria and Northern Italy as well.
    The interesting thing about how ENTjs speak is that they present a very clear and very factually based argument. I read this post by expat and was impressed, and I also don't suspect him of skewing information or any such thing.

    Still, I can't help but feel that when I observe ENTj writing or words, it is very much information channeled specifically at something - and I suspect this is related to Te-Ni. To me, at its core, it seems not objective.

    Other side notes:


    • Te-Si is much more simply looking at "what is". This is actually less "speed-conducive" or "streamlined" towards a certain end or viewpoint.
    • Te-Si, to me, seems much more natural. And perhaps that is why the delta NFs are significantly more open to things - as in valuing Ne.
    • All of this, really, at its core.... it is something very in depth that tweaks me a little bit. And it's something I feel as a "competition" between gammas and deltas: deltas seem to be the only people really looking at 'the truth'. The gamma way is much more streamlined towards objectives, towards some sort of Ni vision or some sort of pattern. To me this seems arbitrary and fake, and somehow not looking at everything.

    So in one sense - what I've been thinking about recently - I feel a 'battle' or competition, going on between delta and gamma. It has to do with "te" or "reality and its interpretation" if you will. Gamma NTs seem much more focused with getting somewhere as opposed to seeing where they are. I understand that the Se egos are to counterbalance the NTs, but still.... it strikes me more like a simple "MORE" or "LESS" command. I seem to be losing trust in gammas ability to actually accurately interpret things - though this concern arises more when there is unhealthiness about.

    Other points

    • In this way, I generally only see deltas as actually concerned with looking at what is true and what is real, and what is the case. (I am also aware that my whole way of thinking in this post may very well be a result of my functional perspective on reality). However, this is how I feel. And this feeling is so strong that it makes me very much want to be around deltas. Alphas are nice, but they don't seem to care as much, they don't have this feeling of responsibiltiy that (some) deltas do; it's just not the same. Betas seem to blatantly don't care, but I sort of "get that" and because they don't challenge me in the way that I'm describing in this thread -- they just don't care -- it seems... more harmless. So again, in this way, gammas are more of a 'threat' because they approach Te from a more biased perspective - that's what it feels like.

      And I tend to feel like that, comparatively, when a gamma looks at what I say in comparisson to how they feel things, my way of presenting things is "disadvantagous". This fits in somewhat with 'not valuing Se" and also "not being concerned with an Ni vision". So I feel like they think "Yeah that may be the case, but why do you care? It's not fitting in with where we are going. Thinking about everything (Ne) is a waste of time and not going to mobilize us towards the specific goal we are hoping to attain here."

      Something like that.
    • Finally, I realize that not all deltas, really, are able to see things clearly. But to it seems deltas, overall, have seen things the most clearly, or have the general potential to see things most clearly. ESTjs and ISTps can get sort of lethargic in their Si views on things, constrained and contained (especially if they don't have Ne from their duals). The NFs can be so scattered that they don't get anywhere or really address anything in a productive fasion.
    • And still finally, what I did in the last paragraph seems to be a very important part of delta, and if you will, a difference between gamma and delta: a sense of self criticism or ability to admit multiple perspective; or perhaps in more Ni/Se vs Ne/Si terms, gammas strike me as being averse to point out the limitedness of their own perspectives and views (related to unvalued Ne, valued Ni and Se, perhaps). But to me, this is a very clear desire to dellude yourself, and it's something that does 'bother me' at times, in how certain gammas I know go about things.

      Gammas seem to feel like if they present a weakness or multiple perspectives, that they suddenly make themselves weaker, or it is somehow negative. (I realize that my wording of things might not convey what I'm trying to convey but I'm trying to select the best words). But it is this resistance, this insecurity, or this aversion to these other ways of looking at things (or related to me, other ways of seeing reality), that is problematic to me.

      This is particularly so, in some cases, where ENTjs are trying to direct reality and interpretation of reality in a certain way, particularly towards their own vision of things. In this way, (and thus some of the motivation for this post), I feel like somewhat of a counter to ENTjs trying to implement such things. I see them as being useful and can learn things from them, but lately, I've felt a sense of having to coutnerbalance them or even protect people from the process/consequences of ENTjs seeking to implement their vision.


    There are some other things related to this, but, I believe this to be enough for this post.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    ...wow.

    T16T, meet left field.

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    Holy Emperor of Mankind, that came out of nowhere.

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    I believe this is what is called a "kindred fite".

    Kindred is for fite.

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    I didn't like the Berne bear pit. The bears were emaciated and sad. I also stood in Berne awaiting for this cuckoo clock to strike noon and it happened at it was possibly the most non eventful moment of my life.

    They do have nice chocolate, watches and cheese and i always think of a blonde girl called heidi with pig tails when i think of Switzerland.

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    Damn you, meatburger!

    *goes off to find chocolate*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    ...wow.

    T16T, meet left field.
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant View Post
    Holy Emperor of Mankind, that came out of nowhere.
    Actually, it doesn't come out of nowhere. It addresses some specific things that were well before your time, and some issues I talked about with other people.

    I don't have anything against Expat - I've said that I missed his presence on the forum before, and I still feel that way. What I'm getting at is something, yes, unrelated to the general nature of this thread. I wrote more about it in blog entries.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    @Ryu:

    I like the way you developed your commentary but unfortunately it says nothing new. What you say about LIEs is the typical perception of a comparative. Just as you find the lack of Si distasteful, I find the lack of Fi on ILEs distasteful too. But it doesn't mean that they are wrong; simply that they fulfill a different social role.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    @Ryu:

    I like the way you developed your commentary but unfortunately it says nothing new. What you say about LIEs is the typical perception of a comparative. Just as you find the lack of Si distasteful, I find the lack of Fi on ILEs distasteful too. But it doesn't mean that they are wrong; simply that they fulfill a different social role.
    I see nothing unfortunate about it; I didn't write it to impress with a new understanding - if anything it was more of going in depth. I wrote it because it was very apparent and something I wanted to go over at length.

    It does make a lot of sense for comparatives and other interquadra relational aspects.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G. Adolphus View Post
    Indeed.
    lol. thank god this thread was resurrected so that i could read this missed post.
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    Generally I like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Switzerland is the only modern example of a Delta culture that comes to my mind. It's peaceful, stable and highly developed, both economically and socially. It's the birth place of some of the most important organizations of the entire world (like the red cross, for example). Yet the country seems to suffer from stagnation. Also, a lot of foreigners complain that the Swiss are conservative and xenophobic/elitist.
    besides Switzerland are there any other regions in the world that can be described as Delta and are do they have the same kind of problems?

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    ... in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    ... in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
    + 1000 for beta

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    + 1000 for beta
    We need someone to fuck shit up.
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    I live there and I think you're right that Switzerland has Gamma/Delta vibes even though I don't like the idea to assign a Quadra to a country. Because even though Switzerland is small it has lots of different regions with very different views.
    I don't know if you know about the votes who are often taking place. There you can see how splitted(not in a bad way the regions still want to be together) the nation is. Historically Switzerland is a good example for a nation of will. That means the regions wanted to form a common state even though they were aware of how different they actually are. The souvereignty of the cantons (federalism) is very important and takes a lot of place in the constitution. That's also the reason we don't share the same problems with e. g. Belgium about seperation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    I live there and I think you're right that Switzerland has Gamma/Delta vibes even though I don't like the idea to assign a Quadra to a country. Because even though Switzerland is small it has lots of different regions with very different views.
    I don't know if you know about the votes who are often taking place. There you can see how splitted(not in a bad way the regions still want to be together) the nation is. Historically Switzerland is a good example for a nation of will. That means the regions wanted to form a common state even though they were aware of how different they actually are. The souvereignty of the cantons (federalism) is very important and takes a lot of place in the constitution. That's also the reason we don't share the same problems with e. g. Belgium about seperation.
    So which quadra is Ticino?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So which quadra is Ticino?


    urban areas: gamma

    countryside: delta

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    Depends where in Switzerland.
    Geneva can be everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    That's Sweden.
    I visited Sweden in the coldest winter for year. It was quite alpha, from what I can remember.

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    Considerations I would consider when placing Switzerland in a Quadra are:

    1) It's neutrality. The country hasn't been in at war since the Sonderbund War in 1847.
    2) It's governance. The country partially embraced Direct Democracy.
    3) It's multiculturalism. The country lies at the confluence of linguistic, architectural, culinary and musical traditions.

    I see no real reason to suggest anything other than Delta.

    EDIT: 200th post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zap View Post
    2) fuck yeah direct democracy. I think other countries don't have it cuz a bunch of power-hungry, greedy, manipulative shitass laywers, bureaucrats & politicians manipulated ppl into thinking they're necessary.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by zap View Post
    3) yup, it's pretty insane... I've read many swiss know as much as 3 or 4 languages.
    They probably need to as Switzerland has 4 official languages: German, French, Italian and Romansh.

    Quote Originally Posted by zap View Post
    Re bolded: Meh, this topic is a good example of why one should be careful not to over-apply socionics; there are tons of non-socionics factors! For example, NPA theory's habitancy map has Switzerland as narcissistic-perfectionist type. Also Hofstede's cultural dimensions which may or may not correlate to quadras. And shame vs guilt culture. And Inglehart-Welzel map. & "Cultural Mandala" which interestingly uses greek elements (which Gulenko associated to quadras!!!) for 16 (!!) combinations total.
    This is all great stuff. Thanks for sharing. I'm already familiar with shame and guilt cultures, but it's interesting to find out I live in an Introspective Habitancy.
    Last edited by The Martrix; 05-25-2014 at 04:39 PM.

  37. #37
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    I don't think Switerzland is really that multi-cultural the way say the US may be, I mean, you basically have three variations of the "alpine" culture living there (the french variation, the german variation and the italian variation) but they are fundamentally not EXTREMELY different from each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't think Switerzland is really that multi-cultural the way say the US may be, I mean, you basically have three variations of the "alpine" culture living there (the french variation, the german variation and the italian variation) but they are fundamentally not EXTREMELY different from each other.
    I know what you mean, by US and also UK standard, Switzerland's culture seems almost homogeneous. In the case of my country (UK), I like the idea of having many cultures. It makes a society more diverse, enriched and interesting.

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