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Thread: videos of alpha's perception of other quadras

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    xerx's Avatar
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    Last edited by xerx; 10-12-2008 at 06:18 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    It doesn't seem like the character is being made fun of; the video is serious, and definitely has an FiSe theme. A better example of an exaggerated Gamma might be Judge Dredd:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=itmNiTwHOsM

    It has some Beta themes, but it's probably made by Gammas, and definitely hilarious from an Alpha POV.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Really? I thought the contrast between the girl's expressions and the emperor's seriousness was something of a parody. The girl's merry demeanor vs. the emperor's serious tone of voice.
    I mean, just listening to the music you can tell that it's not supposed to be a fun song. It's a little sinister.

    Also the randomness of the emperor's court... the female whose role is a mystery, and the fact that the emperor sits on a swing by the end of the video, among other things. All these contrast with the supposed serious role of the emperor.

    The overall tone of the video was really over the top and random, not noble and serious.
    Over the top, maybe, but it's still dark. And there is a big difference between Ni mystery (as in intrigue) and Ne randomness.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I didn't think it was that intriguing and mysterious. I thought the role of the emperor vs. the role of the girl were clearly defined from the start... only that the emperor's character was placed in chaotic situations which parodied that role, whereas the girl remained smiling throughout the video, and the crux of who they were remained constant throughout.
    Hm, this has something to do with Fi focus.

    -Ne understands phenomena as whole and connected (such that it only concerns itself with persisting phenomena) but allows variations of the structure within the overall context (the context is determined by Si, Fi or Ti ??)

    -Ni breaks apart phenomena into multiple, distinct pieces and maps the path of individual pieces as seperate from the original unified body of intuitions (this is where Se, Te or Fe come in to provide the context so that individual sub-pieces of Ni can be substantiated without recourse to the overall or collective intuitive perception).
    I think this would actually be the other way around in some ways. Ne is static, hence discrete. Ti or Fi define relations between Ne phenomena.

    But is the video dark? yes... I suppose it does have that element to it and you are astute in that observation. The video certainly is layered with Ni themes.

    So I think we could just be observing two different sides of the same coin. Perhaps the video is just too complex for either interpretation to stand on its own... and any singular interpretation would be too subjective.
    Yeah, it sounds like you're taking more of an Ni viewpoint on it...

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Are you talking about the video itself or alpha's perception of it?
    The video itself - it really has nothing to do with Alpha's perception of it.

    Yes I see that. When Ne finds a node it can't connect to the big picture, it uses Ti to generate a hypothesis to connect the two nodes together. That's my own experience anyway.

    What do you mean?
    Ni ego types tend to espouse the idea that a single interpretation is too limited to capture all of a phenomenon, to the point of never settling on one. Ne ego types are more willing to make vague generalizations, like for the sake of getting an idea across, without being worried that some important but subtle detail is being overlooked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    The only way I even settled on my explanation is by accepting that there is a dichotmous interaction between Ni and Ne... such that they produce completely opposite results more or less.

    From this I generalized that if I am using Ne, I must be using Ni less than efficiently... and this is the only reason I was able to make the claim that I was being subjective and limitted in thought... having a fuller picture would have meant embracing both informational aspects, and the whole range of possibilities.

    That said, its not as if the intrigue of Ni didn't make any impression on me at all... I just chose to emphasize the aspects of the video that I deemed salient or worthwhile, while the intrigue took on a secondary characteristic.

    I can make loose generalizations... but I think INTjs prefer making these and then establishing a larger more accurate logical framework from them. I think this fits the bill of INTjs being result types more or less, from the reinin dichotomies.

    I preffer my intuitions to completely encapsulate the objects of thought before I start to assemble any logical system from them. Hence a process type. When I understand how they connect intuitively, then the logical part becomes obvious. But in general, I always know that my perception of the object is haphazard and incomplete unless I acquire a full intuitive perception. How the "fullness" is achieved happens automatically during active information intake... often like a bolt of inspiration which places my thoughts in order as I read or observe.
    This kind of idea of a perceptual gestalt is, again, an Ni concept.

    What do you think of the possibility of me being an Ni type? Also bear in my mind that I have strong Ni in my id somewhere if I am an Ne type... and vice versa if I am an Ni type.
    It definitely seems likely, not based on strengths but ego characteristics.

    Do you think that it was not alpha portrayal?
    Generally I find that quadras tend to stay within their own worldview (based primarily on their 4 valued aspects of reality), mainly out of lack of interest in the opposite quadra's. Take They Might Be Giants. It's a clearly Alpha NT band, and most of their songs are playful, with lots of double meanings - with one recent exception that's mostly about Se:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=3CccPPDe2JU

    but you get the feeling that he has a distant respect for Se, and is ultimately a slave to it. I mean, it's called "I'm Impressed".

    Also, can alpha not be dark and sardonic? Why do you associate that with Ni?
    Alpha values Ne and Fe, so it's all about getting personal feelings and motivations "out there"; FeSi means a kind of feel-good mood. The double meanings in TMBG songs are always obvious (either you get it or you don't), but Tainted Love lets you drift in any number of possible directions; you can make up whatever story you want. Ni >> Ne.

    Getting away from the emperor, I thought the video itself was quite playfull actually. Perhaps that makes me a kind of Ni psychopath.
    Yeah...

    I heard it mentioned that you use classical socionics... so I'm interested in your views about this.
    Personally I think "classical socionics" is a ridiculous term. New ideas are always being incorporated into socionics, even if most are crackpotty and incoherent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    What do you mean by perceptual gestalt? I don't like to have concepts or ideas that are contradictory. I see things holistically and identify discrepencies, but I never accept discrepencies in a system as somehow indicative of the general truth. At most, I hypothesize or imagine a possible explanation that can correct these deficiencies in a new and more encompassing system.

    What I meant was that I always have a nagging feeling that the system can become more refined and elaborate. That is, I recognize that my systems works at a certain specific level of abstraction... but to make deeper claims would denature the system I'm currently working with... unless there's a way to probe deeper, I tend to make generalized claims.

    I think the idea of entire levels abstraction is more of an Ne concept. Particularly as I see Ne as a kind of vector field of possibilities (where Se is individual vectors). Adding further dimensions to the field increases it's complexity, and creates a deeper level of thought.

    I tend to look at systems holistically... from top to bottom. But my experience often suggests that the system can change or doesn't have appropriate refinement, and more research is usually needed. I think this could be consistent with having Te as an 8th function.
    Most of this sounds consistent with ILE, but I would also consider Gamma NT.

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing of course... I'd like to know my true type naturally. But I am playing devil's advocate and trying to be as accurate as possible to how I think in order to see if my initial typing can be sufficiently disproved.
    This statement definitely sounds ILI.

    Then the double meaning in the video is negated from being alpha on the basis of its distrubing quality?
    If you're referring to the first video: it's not a double meaning. There is no discrete choice between alternatives, so it's not static intuition. As for I'm Impressed, it's definitely about Se, but weak Se. Music generally has to be interpreted within the creator's type.

    Anyway, are you sure about alpha having only these quadra values? What about dry wit for instance... or mimicry of other quadras. I tend to do this a lot of the time. I particularly enjoy acting aristocratic around betas as a sort of satire (I question their perception of their social status from my "allegedly" superior fake social status). What I value most is the dynamic interaction itself... and the ability to be witty against changing circumstances. Being dry is just a more elaborate system of being witty, and requires more skill to master. Though I do indulge in the occasional vulgarity and shit jokes (actually I do this quite a lot).
    It depends.

    Even pretending to be gamma requires the mastery of some system of social interaction that involves a kind of institutional exchange of ideas
    I have no idea what you mean by this.

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