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  1. #1
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    My most recent wrestling match with the concepts of socionics has driven me to this.

    What socionics type am I? Why do you think that?

    I would like you to tell me what type, or possible types, you think I am. Don't say I'm obviously INFj because it's just so obvious, duh - that it's just crazy to think I'm not. Or say, "I believe you're whatever type you say you are" or "So-and-so says your EII, so I think so, too." Or even that I give you a certain "vibe" therefore I must be XXXx.

    In other words, give concrete socionic reasons for the type I appear to be. Tie your observations of my behavior/words to socionic concepts, definitions, etc. I want good, solid rationales and justifications for your opinions or guesses.


    I've made this thread partly because there are doubts from certain quarters on the accuracy of my current typing, plus I think it could be educational for me and others.

    If you need material of mine to judge, search the forum - I appear all over the place - or ask me a question. It might help to approach this thread as if I'm a brand new person, too, wiping clean any preconceptions you have of me. I'll even wipe my sig clean of any type indicators.

    So, type me, please.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Hi Minde

    Do you have a video..? I'm not the best at typing from words alone.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    I have not made a video. I'd... rather not. That's not something I'm currently comfortable with.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Did you write that paragraph?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Did you write that paragraph?
    You're funny. That doesn't count as a question you can ask me. I will reveal the author's identity when I decide that the anonymity is no longer useful.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    As I have said to you, I seriously doubt you have Ne in your ego. From our interaction you seem to be actively suppressing Ne. IMO.

    My impression of your interaction was of you trying to keep me in a state of justifying myself to you, that is, making assumptions about myself, relating to myself, and holding them to be true for myself (If at least for the time being). And you do this with shallow impressions of me, with nothing really to go on, basically making stuff up along the way.

    One might say this was the Fi dominance, but IMO it's a clear sign of Ne suppression. Basically, through making these proclamations, assertions, assumptions and treating them as valid you were removing elaboration from the whole thing. It became a matter of justification, of disproving them, it became a struggle in trying to set things straight. What I view you doing is basically a very good way of completely eliminating Ne from it all, of removing elaboration. It's in essence an act of Se > Ne. You can see this often on the forum in for example phaedrus', hitta's, and the like's approach. With them it's not a matter of free contextual and abstract exploration, it's a matter of defending and shooting down, it's a fight, struggle to come out on top, as "victorious".

    However, there is another possibility, one I did bring up, perhaps it was inhibition. With inhibition there is a natural struggle between the IME-s. So what I perceive as you deliberately causing a struggle could simple be our IME-s being incompatible.

    In any case, I though you were LSI, but that made no sense. For starters, it would mean you have Fe as dual seeking, which seems absurd from your behavior.

    And then in our recent interaction I started to consider a beta NF. During the interaction whenever I read you responses I kept getting annoyed and felt really defensive. I though it was you being LSI again and trying to impose your assumptions about me, but then I realized that what I was really annoyed was your focus on my motivation, my disposition.

    Here is my account of the events.

    I sent you a message that I had no time right now to address an issue and will do it at a later time when I get the time. You responded by asking me did I take what you said as an insult. Baffled was an understatement.

    We continued the interaction, try to explain things. I tried to explain why I couldn't, that I'm busy and that the addressing of the issue right now, as I felt was you intention, was too much for me, trying to do it right now would be inappropriate, it would be placing needless presume on myself. You responded by telling me not to take out my stress out on you. Again, baffled was an understatement. I was wondering from where and how were you picking all of this up. Were you doing it deliberately, just making stuff up like that, or something else.

    And also, I addressed the issue of my expressed doubts about your type, that I felt I was being unfair to you because I was basically just proclaiming my self with little backing up of what I say, with improper backing up of myself. You responded by asking me was I upset because I used the term "too hard on you" to describe my approach to you. Again I was baffled. I did not understand how you were reading that. And more importantly why. It seemed to me like you were randomly focusing on things that don't exist. That is, for some reason you were reading emotional content where there was none, as was my intention, that is, I wrote it like that, it's no more and no less what I wrote, there is no hidden emotional content behind my words and actions.

    And we continued, I tried to explain myself further, and to try to somehow possibly make sense of your strange actions. And I addressed some other things you said. I primarily found bizzare your self sacrificing actions you described. You proclaimed your intent of adapting to me to make me more comfortable to better our interaction. I found this self degrading, I addressed that there was no need for you to adapt to me, that why should you try to adapt to me. I found it unfair that I was basically be asserted upon you and tried to convey this to you, that you are basically telling me to assert myself upon you. You responded that this was you natural inclination, to facilitate others, to make them happy, to see them happy.

    Now, looking back at this it seems pretty obvious that a beta NF type would have been the explanation for this, but it wasn't until your last response that I actually realized this.

    What made me look in this direction was your claims of necessity of unfounded speculation about reality when we have little to no information to go on. This clashed with me on a fundamental level. I was all set out to rebut it but in the process I found myself describing you and your actions as that of a Ni type. And then I started to think that perhaps you are a Ni type. And then I looked at our interaction and it because pretty clear that my aggravation was caused by you asserting Fe on me. In essence your interaction with me was exploring, questioning my disposition.

    In conclusion, I made this description of you that I found nicely captured your interaction with me.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, basically you are naturally inclined to spot, sense when somebody might be offended. Your first response to my PM. In this instance you were basically just being naturally attentive to my emotional state, you sensed my state and wanted to address it. To kind of help me, you were showing good will towards me in that you wanted to discuss the feeling that arose from our interaction, to make amends in a way.

    Now in our following interaction you proceeded to gather information about me, draw conclusion about me. From the information presented to you. However this information was scarce and you lacked the prerequisite experience to rightfully make these claims, but like you state, when one does not have the necessary information one must go by what one knows, extrapolate based on current trends, past experiences. This is what you were doing, in an environment scarce of information you were extrapolating things about me. You were adapting to the current situation to the best of your abilities, you were guessing about my actions, emotional states, personality traits and the like. In order to have an idea of me, to have a picture of me, so that you would know how to properly deal with me. Like you said, you want to know because it makes it easier to interact with me.

    And you do this because you desire peace and harmony of your environment. You like it when other people are happy and you freely give up your comfort for the sake of securing a nice environment, like you say it's a nice thing to do and it facilitates communication. Basically you are sensitive to the environment around you, a positive emotional atmosphere is essential for your sense of well being and inner peace, like you say, when you give of yourself you feel fuller and more satisfied than before and if you have happiness, why shouldn't you share it. Basically you aim to spread, promote this positive emotional atmosphere by directly influencing it around yourself. You give candy to kids to make them happy and stuff.

    And you were acting out of this motivation when you told me not to take my stress out on you. You were trying to maintain a positive environment. Basically you were being preventive, you were preventively "attacking" me for being emotionally hostile to you.

    And when you approach me in other ways, you were doing it from this perspective as well, trying to determine the general state of affairs, my disposition towards you, towards things. Like you say, you aim to have me be happy and comfortable. And for you to do this you need to know what I am thinking and feeling.

    So you question me on what I am thinking and feeling. You responses have been primarily centered on my states of mind, on my disposition.

    But again because there is not much to go on so you get information on my state of mind by extrapolating my current mental state. Or in essence by guessing what it is, as there was not enough information to be conclusive in your estimates. You were basically not really dealing with me at all, but with a model of me you constructed. And based on this model you would determine my current emotional states, and tried to prevent unfavorable ones. And this, like you state, requires constant adaptation to the changing conditions. It also requires you to be up to date, to constantly be inquiring about my state. And this is what you did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    You're funny. That doesn't count as a question you can ask me. I will reveal the author's identity when I decide that the anonymity is no longer useful.
    You're an EII who doesn't feel comfortable in her ability to find dualization content for herself, so she tries to make others do it for her. Please, never, ever teach. Anywhere. Students are not your dualization slaves. (I'm saying this because it is simply unfair to demand people act as a different type than they are comfortable with. It is unreasonable and nerve wracking to those asked). Unless you're going to teach a class chock full of LSEs.

    This post brought to you by the latest advances in supersocion theory.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Excellent, glamourama, thank you! That was a great response. You tied what you know of me into your understanding of socionics concepts. Perfect.


    @ sneg - So I don't make another mistake of assuming something wrongly about you, did it take you awhile to process and write down those thoughts? If so, thank you, I appreciate it.

    I find your reactions to me very interesting. What you think is not something I come across at all, really. At least, if people do think that way about me they don't express it.

    You're very right about something, though - I tend to focus on your (and others') motivations and dispositions. Now, I suppose, the question is - why is that focus? What function or type does it indicate? Fe, as you seem to think? Or something else?

    I would also like to say that I don't think I'm quite as in need of a peaceful, emotionally pleasant environment as you seem to think. There are definitely times when I get stubborn or upset about something and/or grow porcupine quills. There are several people even here, I believe, who can attest to that.

    In general, though, your quote of yourself (from the PM) seems fairly accurate.


    Tcaud... I'm a bit unsure as to how to respond to you. Perhaps you do not know me as well as you think. (Or perhaps there are some... flaws... in your supersocion theory.) What would you think or say if you knew that this past year I earned much of my living teaching? Or that I have been teaching in some form or another since I was 16? That I enjoy teaching subjects that I know and love? Do you know that one of the things I get most excited about is when someone learns and grows, bettering themselves? And that I like being able to help that process along? Have you talked with any of those I have taught? Did they tell you what they think of me? Do you really think they'd agree with you that I should never teach?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    I was going to stay out of this topic, but tcaud's post just kinda really pissed me off.

    I'm not saying I know Minde, but she seems like she honestly loves to teach. She does it in her free time even! I think that's at the core of a good teacher, one who just honestly loves to see people grow.
    I don't know what mysterious evidence tcaud has that proves minde shouldn't teach, or that she's "an EII who doesn't feel comfortable in her ability to find dualization content for herself". I don't hate or dislike tcaud, but I do think his post up there is complete and utter horseshit.

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    looking at motivations i think is ethical. when i think of motivations i often think of "reading between the lines" which I think I associate more with Fe than Fi, but I think Fi people do that just as much, but maybe not as much with words. I think they might "read between the actions" more.

    Btw, of course logical persons can also focus on motivations, but for me personally it's not the first thing i think about. It's a puzzled reaction, then i think "why", then i think "can this be explained by motivation".
    Last edited by Ms. Kensington; 05-30-2008 at 10:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You're an EII who doesn't feel comfortable in her ability to find dualization content for herself, so she tries to make others do it for her. Please, never, ever teach. Anywhere. Students are not your dualization slaves. (I'm saying this because it is simply unfair to demand people act as a different type than they are comfortable with. It is unreasonable and nerve wracking to those asked). Unless you're going to teach a class chock full of LSEs.

    This post brought to you by the latest advances in supersocion theory.
    WTF?
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Holy mud-wrestling bipolar donkeys, Batman!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Excellent, glamourama, thank you! That was a great response. You tied what you know of me into your understanding of socionics concepts. Perfect.


    @ sneg - So I don't make another mistake of assuming something wrongly about you, did it take you awhile to process and write down those thoughts? If so, thank you, I appreciate it.

    I find your reactions to me very interesting. What you think is not something I come across at all, really. At least, if people do think that way about me they don't express it.

    You're very right about something, though - I tend to focus on your (and others') motivations and dispositions. Now, I suppose, the question is - why is that focus? What function or type does it indicate? Fe, as you seem to think? Or something else?

    I would also like to say that I don't think I'm quite as in need of a peaceful, emotionally pleasant environment as you seem to think. There are definitely times when I get stubborn or upset about something and/or grow porcupine quills. There are several people even here, I believe, who can attest to that.

    In general, though, your quote of yourself (from the PM) seems fairly accurate.


    Tcaud... I'm a bit unsure as to how to respond to you. Perhaps you do not know me as well as you think. (Or perhaps there are some... flaws... in your supersocion theory.) What would you think or say if you knew that this past year I earned much of my living teaching? Or that I have been teaching in some form or another since I was 16? That I enjoy teaching subjects that I know and love? Do you know that one of the things I get most excited about is when someone learns and grows, bettering themselves? And that I like being able to help that process along? Have you talked with any of those I have taught? Did they tell you what they think of me? Do you really think they'd agree with you that I should never teach?
    Probably not due their usage of the transcendent function, which biases their reasoning. No, I do not know those things, though I admit that I would like to. My objections are purely objective: you make demands that many people, I am sure, find difficult to meet. For you to ask with regard to impersonal data is not a problem -- however, when you try to make sense of it in accordance with your own biases (that is, when you try to validate it), then you end up asking for arguments that many will find impossible to validate to your satisfaction.

    (I'm getting an intuitive vibe that you're not understanding what I'm saying, and are thinking I'm talking about generalities applicable to everyone rather than just people with your specific trait. Go ahead and dismiss that if you want to understand me...).

    To illustrate, last semester I took a class whose instructor was an ISFj. Her assignment sheets reeked of demands for ENTj processing. Even worse, she wanted only ENTj outlooks on culture and what problems with it may or may not exist; anything about persistencies of nature she didn't want. She was OK with us not completely transforming ourselves into ENTjs if we limited our writing to cultural considerations. Witness such gems as "consider how texts invite us to 'read' them. Ask how [insert character] related to [event] in the context of 'world'. How is [insert character] a 'symbol' of 'trope' in our culture?" I got the impression that she was the kind of person who uses their students as a compulsive resource of information and research data....

    In any case, acting against type and political alignment both proved excessively perplexing. My GPA paid the price for her unfair demands on my personality. Keeping up with the class was also difficult because she didn't respond to emails nor could I download her course materials from the campus website. (apparently she felt the transition to technology away from paper that MOST of the instructors were embracing was a "negative" cultural shift).

    I'm not completely against letting "dual demander" types teach, but their curriculum should NOT be one of their own choice.

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    i have to admit that would be a really sucky situation to be in. If i have to have instruction and i have a choice i do tend to pick the one that i think is not going to be demanding me to be someone i am not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    i have to admit that would be a really sucky situation to be in. If i have to have instruction and i have a choice i do tend to pick the one that i think is not going to be demanding me to be someone i am not.
    Right.

    I think the point I was trying to make, is that you shouldn't request of something unless you have something of equal value to give in return, or at least a promise for the same. And you should NEVER leverage another person's needs as compulsion to make someone go your way, or to give you something. (there are exceptions to this rule and they are obvious enough... but in most situations it's unacceptable and exploitive.)

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Right.

    I think the point I was trying to make, is that you shouldn't request of something unless you have something of equal value to give in return, or at least a promise for the same. And you should NEVER leverage another person's needs as compulsion to make someone go your way, or to give you something. (there are exceptions to this rule and they are obvious enough... but in most situations it's unacceptable and exploitive.)
    Well...

    Now that you've made that point... Would you mind telling why you think I'm EII in the first place (as opposed to why you think I have a specific negative trait)? Or would that be another instance of me unfairly asking something of someone?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    My most recent wrestling match with the concepts of socionics has driven me to this.

    What socionics type am I? Why do you think that?

    I would like you to tell me what type, or possible types, you think I am. Don't say I'm obviously INFj because it's just so obvious, duh - that it's just crazy to think I'm not. Or say, "I believe you're whatever type you say you are" or "So-and-so says your EII, so I think so, too." Or even that I give you a certain "vibe" therefore I must be XXXx.

    In other words, give concrete socionic reasons for the type I appear to be. Tie your observations of my behavior/words to socionic concepts, definitions, etc. I want good, solid rationales and justifications for your opinions or guesses.

    There are certain instances, Minde, where you seem to epitomize dual seeking.


    I've made this thread partly because there are doubts from certain quarters on the accuracy of my current typing, plus I think it could be educational for me and others.

    If you need material of mine to judge, search the forum - I appear all over the place - or ask me a question. It might help to approach this thread as if I'm a brand new person, too, wiping clean any preconceptions you have of me. I'll even wipe my sig clean of any type indicators.

    So, type me, please.

    A new person? as in, having now past interaction with you?
    How much of my interaction with you do you want me to comment on, here.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    There are certain instances, Minde, where you seem to epitomize dual seeking.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    A new person? as in, having now past interaction with you?
    How much of my interaction with you do you want me to comment on, here.
    However much you want.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Well...

    Now that you've made that point... Would you mind telling why you think I'm EII in the first place (as opposed to why you think I have a specific negative trait)? Or would that be another instance of me unfairly asking something of someone?
    Now that depends on whether or not I've something to gain from the process of such analysis. Obviously I do, but the question is, do I at this moment? Perhaps my guess is little more than an intuition, which I've not fleshed out to any significant degree. (also, your past identifications with EII may have influenced my immediate opinion, though whether or not that has created dissonance is another matter.)

    So I guess my answer to that question would be... do I really know what I'm talking about? No use wasting time with fruitless speculation.

    You do seem to have an acute grasp of your own character, nor do you seem to be in command of fact enough to be a T. But I've got some surefire questions which can settle the matter once and for all....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    But I've got some surefire questions which can settle the matter once and for all....
    Whoa. Pulling out the big guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Now that depends on whether or not I've something to gain from the process of such analysis. Obviously I do, but the question is, do I at this moment?
    Well, only you know the answer to that question.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Perhaps my guess is little more than an intuition, which I've not fleshed out to any significant degree. (also, your past identifications with EII may have influenced my immediate opinion, though whether or not that has created dissonance is another matter.)

    So I guess my answer to that question would be... do I really know what I'm talking about? No use wasting time with fruitless speculation.
    That's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You do seem to have an acute grasp of your own character, nor do you seem to be in command of fact enough to be a T. But I've got some surefire questions which can settle the matter once and for all....
    Fire away!
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    That's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too.

    Yeah, the question of whether or not people know what they are talking about is very important.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    One major knock against any T type is, well, your "what is this paragraph" thread. You show a major lack of confidence in your reasoning abilities, at times. You show almost no confidence there, at times. Don't you agree? **


    You have consistently expressed doubt in your ability to understand socionics. Again, look at your model thread. You keep talking about looking at other people's models and trying to understand them. I wonder, do you even try to build your own? It seems the weight of your thoughts is so much more on other people - what they think and why - when it comes to socionics.

    When it comes to personal values, obviously, that is not the case.

    You seem extremely Te dual seeking in how you interact with Expat. You like his long rigorous explanations. This also appears to be the case with Smilingeyes, although I was not around to see that interaction live. Te>Ti dual seeking, because you are not looking for a simple brief explanation or description, you are looking for lots of information. You seem very receptive to any lengthy sort of explanation. Well not *any*, but you prefer long lengthy descriptions, if they seem reasonable to you, it seems.

    You consistently refer to your inability to type people. You have said many times things like "I am no typist". Again, not showing much strength in your "T" abilities, or your ability to apply socionics on your own. It sounds very much like something you want "help" with.


    * However, in the area of ethics and trying to understand people, you will often test people for logical contradictions. You have used this on me, asking me a lot if I am acting different than what I accuse other people of. So I do not mean to say that you are incompetent with . I think you can use it well. But I do not see you as a logical type, at all.


    ** one notable exception to that is how strongly you reacted in my thread, where I was talking about LSE's and the bit about wanting information. You were very adamant about how someone probing past your personal boundaries is very wrong, and were very bent on that being contradictory to socionics in terms of an EII wanting someone to be gentle. You were convinced that what I was saying was of a very Se and aggressive nature, and that it was not something that was appealing to EIIs. So I think, when it comes to yourself and your feelings and views about things, you seem can be confident.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Fire away!
    OK then. The root of my question lies in the foundation of +Fi on +Fe.... +Fe is signal, and by observing the signals people send (anger, joy, love, etc.) relative to the situation, their character may be deduced.

    Here's the thing: non-Fi leading types can easily deduce their own viewpoint on what motivates people... but not those of people who don't share their view on the same. Some will argue that motivation is due to circumstance, others that it is inborn. The truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes (at the very center, no doubt...), but due to specializations (that I would argue are innate to the individual) non-Fi leading types tend to favor one half of that whole over the other. Honestly... I don't believe I actually have the ability to process situation dependent motivation with any other aspect. It's kind of like a mental "ward" of sorts... a sense of sudden terror that precludes any further exploration.

    My question to you is this: do you find yourself capable of processing +Fi as traits that are situation independent, or situation dependent, or both? Which do you prefer to focus on? I've phrased that very abstractly, so perhaps the following will be clearer: do you prefer to observe how culture influences motivation, or how genes influence it? (that is, do you prefer to consider motivations that are culture independent).

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    -
    Last edited by UDP; 06-01-2008 at 05:51 AM.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    One major knock against any T type is, well, your "what is this paragraph" thread. You show a major lack of confidence in your reasoning abilities, at times. You show almost no confidence there, at times. Don't you agree? **
    And some people show too much confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    You have consistently expressed doubt in your ability to understand socionics. Again, look at your model thread. You keep talking about looking at other people's models and trying to understand them. I wonder, do you even try to build your own? It seems the weight of your thoughts is so much more on other people - what they think and why - when it comes to socionics.
    To me, socionics is an asset, not a necessary tool in understanding people. Or, it could be an asset, I think, if I could ever figure it out well enough.

    I have a model, yes, but it looks different from everybody else's. And, anyway, I wouldn't call it a model 'cause it doesn't really have any parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    When it comes to personal values, obviously, that is not the case.

    You seem extremely Te dual seeking in how you interact with Expat. You like his long rigorous explanations.
    Sometimes they aren't long and rigorous enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    This also appears to be the case with Smilingeyes, although I was not around to see that interaction live. Te>Ti dual seeking, because you are not looking for a simple brief explanation or description, you are looking for lots of information. You seem very receptive to any lengthy sort of explanation. Well not *any*, but you prefer long lengthy descriptions, if they seem reasonable to you, it seems.

    You consistently refer to your inability to type people. You have said many times things like "I am no typist". Again, not showing much strength in your "T" abilities, or your ability to apply socionics on your own. It sounds very much like something you want "help" with.
    It's something I have not yet completely grasped, yes. I fear that I will misapply it and cause harm. I like hearing and seeing how others understand it and apply it because I might learn something from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    * However, in the area of ethics and trying to understand people, you will often test people for logical contradictions. You have used this on me, asking me a lot if I am acting different than what I accuse other people of. So I do not mean to say that you are incompetent with . I think you can use it well. But I do not see you as a logical type, at all.
    I'm not sure that asking for someone to be unhypocritical is Ti or even a dislike of "logical contradictions".

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ** one notable exception to that is how strongly you reacted in my thread, where I was talking about LSE's and the bit about wanting information. You were very adamant about how someone probing past your personal boundaries is very wrong, and were very bent on that being contradictory to socionics in terms of an EII wanting someone to be gentle. You were convinced that what I was saying was of a very Se and aggressive nature, and that it was not something that was appealing to EIIs. So I think, when it comes to yourself and your feelings and views about things, you seem can be confident.
    I don't understand your point here, especially the bolded part.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    OK then. The root of my question lies in the foundation of +Fi on +Fe.... +Fe is signal, and by observing the signals people send (anger, joy, love, etc.) relative to the situation, their character may be deduced.

    Here's the thing: non-Fi leading types can easily deduce their own viewpoint on what motivates people... but not those of people who don't share their view on the same. Some will argue that motivation is due to circumstance, others that it is inborn. The truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes (at the very center, no doubt...), but due to specializations (that I would argue are innate to the individual) non-Fi leading types tend to favor one half of that whole over the other. Honestly... I don't believe I actually have the ability to process situation dependent motivation with any other aspect. It's kind of like a mental "ward" of sorts... a sense of sudden terror that precludes any further exploration.

    My question to you is this: do you find yourself capable of processing +Fi as traits that are situation independent, or situation dependent, or both? Which do you prefer to focus on? I've phrased that very abstractly, so perhaps the following will be clearer: do you prefer to observe how culture influences motivation, or how genes influence it? (that is, do you prefer to consider motivations that are culture independent).
    I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I prefer to find the motivations regardless of where they come from. I've never really found a need to divide motivations up into categories, though I'm sure you could and have.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I'm not sure that asking for someone to be unhypocritical is Ti or even a dislike of "logical contradictions".
    Right.

    I don't understand your point here, especially the bolded part.
    You showed a of confidence in your understanding of socionics in that situation. You were very sure that what I was saying was unappealing to INFjs. You were sure that what I was saying was too "Se", and not "Si" enough. It was not comforting, etc. The point I was making in general was that such was an instance of you actually being very certain about "your model", in terms of how an LSE and and EII are duals, etc.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    If you are replying right now to my long post, Minde, just know I'm still revising it. I'm going to go to bed now, or shortly, and not revise it that much. Look at the PS and the new pre-script to understand more about my revisions and edits.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    @ sneg - So I don't make another mistake of assuming something wrongly about you, did it take you awhile to process and write down those thoughts?
    No.

    I document all of my thoughts and observations as they happen, make notes. When possible that is. Just for situations like this, when I would need to make a "report" on it, to be used for later reference. My interaction with you was no exception. So it didn't take me awhile to process and write them down, I wrote them down as they happened and returned to them now, when they were of relevance to me.

    You're very right about something, though - I tend to focus on your (and others') motivations and dispositions. Now, I suppose, the question is - why is that focus? What function or type does it indicate? Fe, as you seem to think? Or something else?
    Well IMO it's definitely ethics. I don't see how anyone could say it is not. And there, well, it says for itself. The focus is on motivation and disposition. A direct contrast to the Fi-s focus on personality and character traits.

    I would also like to say that I don't think I'm quite as in need of a peaceful, emotionally pleasant environment as you seem to think.
    Perhaps I'm being nitpicky, I don't "think" anything, I'm giving an assessment. What I say is not in any way connected to my personal sentiments.

    In general, though, your quote of yourself (from the PM) seems fairly accurate.
    In that case I think you should consider IEI. Because I modeled that description on the IEI, dominant Ni and creative Fe descriptions from the wiki.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    My most recent wrestling match with the concepts of socionics has driven me to this.

    What socionics type am I? Why do you think that?

    I would like you to tell me what type, or possible types, you think I am. Don't say I'm obviously INFj because it's just so obvious, duh - that it's just crazy to think I'm not. Or say, "I believe you're whatever type you say you are" or "So-and-so says your EII, so I think so, too." Or even that I give you a certain "vibe" therefore I must be XXXx.

    In other words, give concrete socionic reasons for the type I appear to be. Tie your observations of my behavior/words to socionic concepts, definitions, etc. I want good, solid rationales and justifications for your opinions or guesses.
    There are certain instances, Minde, where you seem to epitomize dual seeking.
    What you bolded sounds more like Ti seeking. Contrast Ti seeking and Te seeking.


    as a suggestive (5th) function (ESE and EIE)

    The individual has great admiration for people with well-developed systems of views. He especially likes clear and concise explanations of concepts, rather than a lot of background information about them that is not directly pertinent. He wants his actions to make sense, and thus needs external assurance that the conceptual understanding behind them is correct. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become flustered and unable to act rationally at all.

    as a mobilizing (6th) function (SEI and IEI)

    The individual seeks clarity in his system of beliefs and understanding and enjoys entertaining new concepts and being included in philosophical discussions where new concepts and systems of thought are introduced.
    as a suggestive (5th) function (ESI and EII)

    The individual is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to him towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the individual; facts and demonstrative explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions. For the same reason, he avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable or simply untruthful information.
    He tends to neglect to think about the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him directions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. He admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile.
    as a mobilizing (6th) function (SEE and IEE)

    The individual is keen on accumulating factual knowledge on subjects of personal interest and those that help him be more efficient and productive, but he's often unsure of his ability to find and select the correct information and is therefore attracted to people whom he sees as competent in that area and reassure him.
    IMO it's pretty clear what minde asks is Ti seeking, not Te seeking. As these segments demonstrate Ti seeking is about needing a proper analysis, not Te seeking.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    You have consistently expressed doubt in your ability to understand socionics. Again, look at your model thread. You keep talking about looking at other people's models and trying to understand them. I wonder, do you even try to build your own? It seems the weight of your thoughts is so much more on other people - what they think and why - when it comes to socionics.

    When it comes to personal values, obviously, that is not the case.

    You seem extremely Te dual seeking in how you interact with Expat. You like his long rigorous explanations. This also appears to be the case with Smilingeyes, although I was not around to see that interaction live. Te>Ti dual seeking, because you are not looking for a simple brief explanation or description, you are looking for lots of information. You seem very receptive to any lengthy sort of explanation. Well not *any*, but you prefer long lengthy descriptions, if they seem reasonable to you, it seems.

    You consistently refer to your inability to type people. You have said many times things like "I am no typist". Again, not showing much strength in your "T" abilities, or your ability to apply socionics on your own. It sounds very much like something you want "help" with.
    To be honest, everything you mention as against Ti and for Te is, IMO, the other way around.

    Even though I don't know this, if she really does keep talking about looking at other people's models and trying to understand them then that is a sign of valued Ti over Te. If she really does like long rigorous explanations over simple brief explanations or descriptions that is again a sign of Ti > Te. If she really does point out her inability to type people that would again point to Ti > Te.

    I don't really see how you are seeing Te here, everything she said about herself that you referenced demonstrates a clear need for structural interpretation over functional information.

    I mean, here we have a case in point for my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    You seem extremely Te dual seeking in how you interact with Expat. You like his long rigorous explanations.
    Sometimes they aren't long and rigorous enough!
    The only way I could see Te needing is in her good relations with expat. However I don't find that conclusive as it is interaction over the internet and expat is a pretty easy to get along with.

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    The functional arrangement for EII makes the most sense.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Ok, I've gone through some posts from a few months ago and I've picked out some things where I think I can point out specific socionics elements.

    This post might be rather long, but I'll try to be concise and clear with my thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    I don't get how the people here can't understand that it's impossible to love someone without actually loving something about them. Love is a judgment or a conclusion that one comes to when there are things about a person that they like and enjoy to be around. The people here are implying that its possible to love someone while hating everything about them which is theoretically impossible within our context of reality. Love is an evaluation, the result of a test thats subject is on that your standards. You love people based on them fitting your standards of what you actually like. It is an ethical judgment. I do not see how you cannot see this, its very simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    If love is a choice and action, then it is possible to choose to love someone even while finding them repulsive.
    I see insight here about an concept, in understanding that love is something you choose and that you can subjectively choose to love someone despite the person's characteristics (which I think is possibly devaluing )

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2
    To be perfectly honest, I couldn't even wrap myself around this thread until someone could answer me what makes a type 'useful'. That said, I have trouble seeing how any contributions I've made have been particularly helpful. Some people I know have told me that I am, but can you ever really quantify that really? Probably, no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yeah, on my own, I tend to think of myself as fairly useless. However, I can accomplish things if I know how to do them.

    About the usefulness of IEI's - they're excellent for keeping SLE's entertained and occupied and mollified... thus taking the pressure off of me to do so. So, even if only for that, they are a necessary part of the socion to me.
    I think shines through here as well. The first sentence is an evaluation, a judgment about yourself when placed in the context of your "usefulness" as received or compared to those around you. You are aware of your abilities and what you're capable of (), but there's this sentiment of not being able to truly quantify one's own usefulness (), maybe because you understand that the same action will be received differently by different people. One person who thinks your action is useful might not be received in the same way by another person (I think this is another insight).

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Once, during a spring of blossoming allergens, when I sort of lived with a family, the mother kept a jar of just vitamin C in the cupboard - it kind of looked like sugar from a distance, but it wasn't - and one evening I happened to complain that my throat felt tickly. She gave me a cup, put some water in it, scooped... I don't know but lots of the powdery stuff into it, and instructed me to drink. I drank. And wrinkled up my face like this *demonstrates* and even did a little of that flapping-hands-circle-dance thing you do when something tastes really sour. *shudders* Whew!

    But I felt much better the next morning, and that evening she told me to have some more. I did (though it took a good deal of self-discipline to force it into my mouth). And my throat didn't tickle for quite awhile after that.
    The way you describe this experience is very to me. Your throat feeling tickly. The demonstration of the sourness of the drink, as if you're reliving the experience as you demonstrate it. You even kind of hint at that when you shudder at the end, kind of reliving the taste in your mind.

    You transcribe the process while holding what your health state was as the background. We're always aware of how were feeling and perceiving yours state through this brief example.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I want a great big sign that says
    "just tell me the truth",

    perhaps with other comments like

    "and get it over with"
    "c'mon, don't bullshit me"
    "just tell me now, so we don't have to waist time beating around the bush"

    : / why do...........
    I mean, does it really have any use to try to mince words or filter out content? I don't get it. Active listening my ass, I just want a big sign that I can point to and say

    "tell me the truth, Ruth"

    I can take it. I think most other people can't - is that the problem?

    And no, no one is lying to me or anything like that. I'm sort of counseling someone right now, and I suppose I'm getting impatient. It's like, come on, you want me to ask you, you want me to find out - why keep putting it off? You want to solve the problem you have to look at everything, why try to hide yourself from it? The person isn't screwing around with me either, it's just a natural phenomenon that I do not understand. Many people do this.

    Oh well, I guess I'll just have to start working on that sign.
    Or maybe a T shirt.........
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    UDP, when talking through stuff you don't always get right to the heart of an issue, either, you know. Sometimes people don't always know where they're going. Or even where they are. It can be hard to be direct when there's a loss of direction. (That's like what Loki said.) If it's a counseling situation, you especially need to expect and prepare to be comfortable with confusion.
    There are two things I see here at this point.

    1) I don't think this is how you intended it, but, for lack of a better phrase, it's akin to "get the plank out of your own eye before you point out the splinter in someone else's eye". I think here you're pointing out that he struggles with the very thing he's explaining that he wants from others. You're just wanting him to open his eyes and see bit of irony in what he's saying. (I think this points towards + again. You are able to discern the irony here by putting UDP (I'm guessing this is how it's done by you, and it can be done rather quickly) in either a hypothetical or possibly past situation in which he'd need to be openly blunt with other people, and he not quite achieving that.)

    2) Because of 1), there's a bit of frustration (not much frustration, and also which you explain later) that starts to build up about the lack of self-insight he seems to be demonstrating here. You lay out in the second paragraph an understanding that sometimes people will be confused about their internal state (which doesn't make sense to someone like UDP). You are showing an understanding of possibilities that any person can show about their own internal state. Even if that means utter confusion about their state. +.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    No, that is different.

    This is a matter of just telling you flat out what the matter is, and what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Perhaps it is not as different as you may think.

    Try this - what may be clear to you may not be as clear to other people, and vice versa.
    Here I see a pointing towards explaining to UDP that, hey, not everyone can be as blunt and be able to effectively describe in words what's happening internally to the degree that UDP is seeking. For UDP's mind, it's clear and easy for him to be able to clearly explain things like "What's the matter?/What's wrong?" and expects others to be able to achieve this.

    You're saying (paraphrasing) "Not so fast, my friend, you need to remember that something that's easy for you isn't as easy for someone else." More insight, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    That's true. And I realize I have a tendency to get irritated sometimes when I know something other people don't, and think they should.

    by the by - The issue above is resolved, I was just being impatient, so in my angst I made this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    That's true. And I realize I have a tendency to get irritated sometimes when I know something other people don't, and think they should.
    Do you realize that's exactly how I feel about you sometimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    by the by - The issue above is resolved, I was just being impatient, so in my angst I made this thread.
    Yes, patience... You will get much further (in the long run) in these situations if you have it - patience and gentle persistence.
    Having that insight, you understand what it takes to have success in dealing with these situations -- in this case, a little patience goes a long way. Being able to demonstrate patience and understanding in this situation points towards and to me. Even though progress can be very gradual, you've done this enough to know that the end result is desirable. You've been through similar feeling situations, familiar enough to you to understand that you can demonstrate patience and maybe a little sacrifice to be able to work through the understanding. You're willing to go through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Do you realize that's exactly how I feel about you sometimes?
    What's your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    My point is you can be just as frustrating as the person you were complaining about. So be patient with them like you want people to be patient with you.

    I'm not sure how much clearer I can get than that without a two-by-four.
    In this particular conversation I saw a very gradual kind of explanation for UDP, in a very thorough way (I find it very similar to how I explain things, to be quite honest). Laying things out by conveying imagery and comparisons in a base, gentle kind of way.

    continued in next post...
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    All in all, I see no reason to doubt INFj. I think throughout my time here and reading your posts you have clearly demonstrated Delta quadra values. I think what draws me to believe you are dominant is just based on what I perceive your primary state of mind is as you communicate on the board -- there's a stability and a peace that you seem to convey in any post you've ever made. is a very anchoring element in that it draws these mental pieces together and you can see these pieces clearly in order to come to some sort of judgment or conclusion. Hmm, I know that's a bit vague and abstract, but, I think the insight you have allows you to see things with a very clear light and be able to steadily be able to make these judgments (I can't think of a better word at the moment) or being able to determine very clearly what your internal state is at any given moment.

    So, I can probably go through a few more posts, but it does seem pretty consistent to me.

    Edit: I had to put in the . For some reason it was omitted.
    Last edited by tereg; 05-31-2008 at 11:35 PM.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    I agree with Tereg's general analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    2) Because of 1), there's a bit of frustration (not much frustration, and also which you explain later) that starts to build up about the lack of self-insight he seems to be demonstrating here. You lay out in the second paragraph an understanding that sometimes people will be confused about their internal state (which doesn't make sense to someone like UDP). You are showing an understanding of possibilities that any person can show about their own internal state. Even if that means utter confusion about their state. +.
    For my own self I am curious, since you have used me extensively in your post here, what do you mean when you say "someone like UDP" ?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    And some people show too much confidence.


    To me, socionics is an asset, not a necessary tool in understanding people. Or, it could be an asset, I think, if I could ever figure it out well enough.

    I have a model, yes, but it looks different from everybody else's. And, anyway, I wouldn't call it a model 'cause it doesn't really have any parts.


    Sometimes they aren't long and rigorous enough!


    It's something I have not yet completely grasped, yes. I fear that I will misapply it and cause harm. I like hearing and seeing how others understand it and apply it because I might learn something from it.


    I'm not sure that asking for someone to be unhypocritical is Ti or even a dislike of "logical contradictions".


    I don't understand your point here, especially the bolded part.


    I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I prefer to find the motivations regardless of where they come from. I've never really found a need to divide motivations up into categories, though I'm sure you could and have.
    OK, but let's say that you were asked to stand by an assessment of a person's motivations. Which would you feel more comfortable with, motivations you felt were shaped by culture, or motivations that you felt were innate to the person regardless of the culture observed? Or do you consciously balance them? An EII would seek balance, and thereby offer a surprisingly accurate character study.

    This next question just might affirm whether you are EII or not: (be honest) do you allow another person's situation to influence your feelings toward them? Do you allow your own feelings to be reshaped by another person's emotional state, whatever the cause? EII matures by allowing others' emotive signals to influence their own emotional states, thus allowing them to feel compassion for another's plight regardless of what the other person's motivations may be. They balance this compassion with an acute sense of fairness as to what the individual has done or may do given their emotive state.

    Any type can have compassion, but the question is whether it is learned, or conjectured on the spot. Only EII can do it on the spot.

    (compassion manifests by allowing one's own +Fi aroused emotions to be tempered by incoming +Fe signals of emotional distress. In exchange for access to +Fe, -Fi requests access to -Fe. (the conflict between the -Fi shadow and the +Fi ego is resolved by the transcendent function.) -Fe is shaped by -Fi, meaning that the object agrees to accept the subject's sense of fairness. (still working out what exactly the object is in that particular instance...))

    Does that make any sense?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 05-31-2008 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    For my own self I am curious, since you have used me extensively in your post here, what do you mean when you say "someone like UDP" ?
    Hmm, it came out a bit wrong I think. I just meant to say in general there seems to be this... hmm, bafflement like what you've expressed here in this example. Maybe "doesn't make sense" was a bit too strong.

    I was just trying to generalize this aspect of bafflement and trying to figure out why something is.
    INFj

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    No.

    I document all of my thoughts and observations as they happen, make notes. When possible that is. Just for situations like this, when I would need to make a "report" on it, to be used for later reference. My interaction with you was no exception. So it didn't take me awhile to process and write them down, I wrote them down as they happened and returned to them now, when they were of relevance to me.
    Ah, so you did spend a relatively large amount of time, just not all at once. So you think you are undeserving of appreciation for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Perhaps I'm being nitpicky, I don't "think" anything, I'm giving an assessment. What I say is not in any way connected to my personal sentiments.
    That confuses me. How can you give an assessment without thinking? Or are you speaking in perception/judging terms?

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    In that case I think you should consider IEI. Because I modeled that description on the IEI, dominant Ni and creative Fe descriptions from the wiki.
    That's interesting. Let it be noted that I, at least in part, identify with an IEI description.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The only way I could see Te needing is in her good relations with expat. However I don't find that conclusive as it is interaction over the internet and expat is a pretty easy to get along with.
    Most people find him so, it's true. Others find him difficult, offensive, etc. The key question is, "why?" Some of it is probably related to non-socionic things, like maturity and practice in how to communicate. But other parts of it seem like they could be socinical in nature.

    I think it's important to look at relationships with other people, too. Not in isolation, of course, because any individual has the potential to get along with any other individual. But relationships and how they work out are important to look at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    The functional arrangement for EII makes the most sense.
    Thank you, Joy, for your opinion. Would you care to expand upon your reasons for thinking so?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    OK, but let's say that you were asked to stand by an assessment of a person's motivations. Which would you feel more comfortable with, motivations you felt were shaped by culture, or motivations that you felt were innate to the person regardless of the culture observed? Or do you consciously balance them? An EII would seek balance, and thereby offer a surprisingly accurate character study.
    By "culture" do you mean circumstance? If so, then both, I think. For example, if I were to try to determine why an Israeli hated an Arab, the most obvious (and still very legitimate) reason would stem from culture/circumstance. There's probably a very specific history. But you can't discount the inner reasons, common to all people, like fear for one's safety and preservation of comfort.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    This next question just might affirm whether you are EII or not: (be honest) do you allow another person's situation to influence your feelings toward them? Do you allow your own feelings to be reshaped by another person's emotional state, whatever the cause? EII matures by allowing others' emotive signals to influence their own emotional states, thus allowing them to feel compassion for another's plight regardless of what the other person's motivations may be. They balance this compassion with an acute sense of fairness as to what the individual has done or may do given their emotive state.

    Any type can have compassion, but the question is whether it is learned, or conjectured on the spot. Only EII can do it on the spot.
    I definitely absorb the feelings of others as I perceive them. Because of that, I often try to put up walls to keep those feelings out. Too much emotion from the outside will upset my internal balance and cause chaos. Sometimes those walls are physical in nature, e.g. leaving the situation or attempting to resolve it. Other times the walls are in my own head, like where I rationalize and/or judge their behavior. An example of rationalizing, and thus diminishing, the emotions of others is when they're really exuberant or exaggerated. I just say to myself, "It's exaggeration," and then it doesn't impact me as much and it's easier for me to react appropriately. (Note: This doesn't mean I say, "It doesn't exist," because it usually does. I just react to it according to what I think the proper magnitude should be.) Other times I'll guess at or figure out why they're feeling that way, and if they made bad decisions to get to that point then I can sort of feel they deserve it and detach myself that way.

    Because of this, while I often easily sense what others are feeling, I can be quite harsh and callous seeming. So I don't know if you can say I'm completely compassionate regardless of motivation. I mean, everyone is human, but at the same time not everyone deserves compassionate attention. Or, hm, rather, everyone has need of compassion and love - I think that is a very basic human need - but there are also consequences for decisions which might necessitate unpleasant experiences on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    (compassion manifests by allowing one's own +Fi aroused emotions to be tempered by incoming +Fe signals of emotional distress. In exchange for access to +Fe, -Fi requests access to -Fe. (the conflict between the -Fi shadow and the +Fi ego is resolved by the transcendent function.) -Fe is shaped by -Fi, meaning that the object agrees to accept the subject's sense of fairness. (still working out what exactly the object is in that particular instance...))

    Does that make any sense?
    That last part doesn't.


    @ Esper - My memory is not what I'd consider the best. I seem to remember the oddest things and forget everything else and I haven't quite pinned down the pattern behind that. That might or might not be related to socionics, though, so I'll focus now on what happens when I first receive information.

    I generally do my own connecting, I think. I appreciate checks on my connections, though.

    From what you describe, I'm pretty sure I identify more with your EII friend than you, but can you give an example of how you deal with something versus how your friend does? That would help me in seeing what you're saying.


    @ Tereg - Thank you so much for taking the time to do that! I don't really have any comments or questions right now, but I definitely enjoyed reading it. You seem to understand me pretty well.


    @ anyone - about my reluctance to type others - I have noticed that other self-proclaimed Fi-dominants have the same hesitance. Diana, for example, and munenori, ritella, etc. Eunice is the only exception that I can think of. All the others tend to either give possible functional explanations (while avoiding a more "permanent" type tagging) or just give their own impressions and opinions of the person.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    All in all, I see no reason to doubt INFj. I think throughout my time here and reading your posts you have clearly demonstrated Delta quadra values. I think what draws me to believe you are dominant is just based on what I perceive your primary state of mind is as you communicate on the board -- there's a stability and a peace that you seem to convey in any post you've ever made. is a very anchoring element in that it draws these mental pieces together and you can see these pieces clearly in order to come to some sort of judgment or conclusion. Hmm, I know that's a bit vague and abstract, but, I think the insight you have allows you to see things with a very clear light and be able to steadily be able to make these judgments (I can't think of a better word at the moment) or being able to determine very clearly what your internal state is at any given moment.

    So, I can probably go through a few more posts, but it does seem pretty consistent to me.

    Edit: I had to put in the . For some reason it was omitted.
    I'm quoting this to note that the was omitted in the original post, just for clarity sake.


    With regards to typing people, I find that I'm hesitant as well to type people. I also try to give observations that I see, and if I focus on the process more, maybe I can ascertain a type for them. But it's not something that I readily do either or something that comes naturally to me. It usually takes a lot of processing and thinking and pulling different resources out, and then analyzing the resources in a socionics sense and then speculating type.

    I think that I share Minde's sentiments about typing people pretty much completely.
    INFj

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    With regards to typing people, I find that I'm hesitant as well to type people. I also try to give observations that I see, and if I focus on the process more, maybe I can ascertain a type for them. But it's not something that I readily do either or something that comes naturally to me. It usually takes a lot of processing and thinking and pulling different resources out, and then analyzing the resources in a socionics sense and then speculating type.

    I think that I share Minde's sentiments about typing people pretty much completely.
    That's why I'm so appreciative of your efforts in this thread.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    And, btw, our example is probably a little more extreme than you would find of some EII and IEI who aren't as obsessive intellectually. We both chide ourselves for spending to much time studying interesting things and being in "la la" land. ^_^ So how much you relate to it would depend on how much you identify with being so egghead.
    No, that's a great example and I relate to it.

    See, I really admire what you do - organizing ideas into understandable, and usable, structures. Making it all very definite and connected. It reminds me of Glamourama's efforts in the "unaddressed issues" thread - where everything is all structured and logically organized. I think that it's beautiful and I'll have short bursts of that, and I even sort of do that for a portion of my job. But I don't have the stamina (?) to keep doing that and to do it to everything. It's just too much of a bother for me to do it all myself. Too much detailed structure-making twists my brain up. But I do appreciate clarity and solid logic and clean-structured information from other people.

    "She has scraps of paper, blog entries, emails, files, etc. of what connections she made within the study and how it connected to other psychological concepts, sometimes even an essay or two."

    Yeah, that's me. My findings, thoughts, understandings of everything are quite scattered and not well-organized, although I do record a lot of my thoughts. It would probably make me more productive if they were better organized. The only thing I can think of that might be bad about that is to set it all into a definite structure might mean loosing some of the connections, especially the ones that I sense but can't define. I'm not sure if I can explain that idea further though.

    I can also somewhat relate to the waning interest thing. I'll find something fascinating and explore it in depth, but once I've reached the point of satisfaction - I have my fill of info and it fits my desired understanding - I'll sort of drop it and move on. However, I've found that often times I'll go back to a same subject and re-explore it, almost testing it to see if it's still the same as it was when I last looked at it.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    That's why I'm so appreciative of your efforts in this thread.

    It's my pleasure.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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