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Thread: personal power within vs power over others

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    Default personal power within vs. power over others

    The difference between having personal power within yourself and having power over others is intriguing me.

    What is the difference and where do each come from, socionics wise, if they do? Are they both Se things? Or something else? Or Se in a different position? Ideas, thoughts?

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    I believe that no one can have power over anyone else. One can choose to go along with another person's will, but it's still his/her own choosing to do so.

    And no, I'm not interested in debating with those who argue that someone can literally, physically force someone to do something. You're missing the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I believe that no one can have power over anyone else. One can choose to go along with another person's will, but it's still his/her own choosing to do so.

    And no, I'm not interested in debating with those who argue that someone can literally, physically force someone to do something. You're missing the point.
    not meaning to be one that is going to argue, but....

    i hear what you're saying philosophically. but, i am trying to understand socionics and how these elements manifest in me and others.

    according to socionics, power over others = ?, personal power within = ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    not meaning to be one that is going to argue, but....

    i hear what you're saying philosophically. but, i am trying to understand socionics and how these elements manifest in me and others.

    according to socionics, power over others = ?, personal power within = ?
    Strength of will is often considered to be related to Se, but other factors (such as rationality and various other dichotomies) can come into play.

    I was going to get Augusta's description of Se leading from Rick's site, but AVG's saying "threat detected: exploit link to known exploit site"??? Not sure what that's about. I'm sure I've posted it someone on the forum at some point, but it's late and I don't feel like searching for it atm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I believe that no one can have power over anyone else. One can choose to go along with another person's will, but it's still his/her own choosing to do so.
    But that's missing the point. I think you go too far with that 'personal power' stuff and end up taking no responibility for how yourself and others can affect people. It's all well and good for you to talk; you sound like a strong person. Others find it harder to resist being controlled.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    But that's missing the point. I think you go too far with that 'personal power' stuff and end up taking no responibility for how yourself and others can affect people. It's all well and good for you to talk; you sound like a strong person. Others find it harder to resist being controlled.
    Truly strong people see no need to try to control others.

    As for those who are controlling or who find themselves allowing others to "control" them... well, that's just where they are right now. I wish them the best, and hope that they'll discover ways to empower themselves. No one else can do it for them.

    Er, but all of this is off topic.

    dbmmama, I don't think it's as much related to type as it is to wellness. You will find personal power in well people of all types, and unwell people either try to control others or allow others to "control" them. As for people who fall into that category, Se types and EJ's are the most likely to be controlling.
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    Aspect-wise, personal will = +Se and power imposed from without = -Se.

    Power over others can be either +Se or -Se, depending on whether the person observing it is the wielder or the person facing the imposition.

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    And which one is Gamma supposed to be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    But that's missing the point. I think you go too far with that 'personal power' stuff and end up taking no responibility for how yourself and others can affect people. It's all well and good for you to talk; you sound like a strong person. Others find it harder to resist being controlled.
    In socionics terms, what is it in a person that makes it harder for them to resist being controlled?

    And what is it in a person that might come across as controlling but really just would like to help empower others within themselves, that desire it, to go after their own dreams, whatever they are?

    I abhor the idea of having power over someone else. I like building my own power to do what I want to in life. And I like helping others to do the same, if they choose it. And I am fine if they don't. I know that everyone has their own path during this life. And it is not mine to say what or how and anything that path should look like. But, i do like being an example of someone who goes after their dream life, whether others are inspired by it or not. or even gag a little, which hurts, but I still must go on with what feels right to me. just as everyone here is doing life in a way that is right for them.

    I just want to know what this means in socionics language!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    In socionics terms, what is it in a person that makes it harder for them to resist being controlled?

    And what is it in a person that might come across as controlling but really just would like to help empower others within themselves, that desire it, to go after their own dreams, whatever they are?

    I abhor the idea of having power over someone else. I like building my own power to do what I want to in life. And I like helping others to do the same, if they choose it. And I am fine if they don't. I know that everyone has their own path during this life. And it is not mine to say what or how and anything that path should look like. But, i do like being an example of someone who goes after their dream life, whether others are inspired by it or not. or even gag a little, which hurts, but I still must go on with what feels right to me. just as everyone here is doing life in a way that is right for them.

    I just want to know what this means in socionics language!
    Where's Expat when you need him? I'm not so sure myself. I think like Joy and Tcaudillg said, Se is generally associated with personal power. I don't know about power over others - EJ types? But I think it also depends on what type you are, because I personally find types like ENFps and INTjs much harder to resist, because their power over me is more subtle. People that are obvious about being controlling make me want to resist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Define power. Power in what sense? In complete abuse of the definitions of the information aspects, Se is a "physical presence or force", Ti is a "calculating machine", Ne whips you with "creativity", Fi is a "moral preacher", etc. etc. Stereotypical as that may be, what is your vulnerable point? People who are strong in what you are weak in are the ones whom you will view as having an uncounteractable manner or "aura" about them; meanwhile your ego functions form part of the strength or power within you.
    thanks for helping me to clarify. i can see what you're saying that the definition of power will be different for each type. this is really a great way of explaining it. thank you.

    so, you're saying that someone strong in my weak spot would seem to push my buttons so to speak? i've had my buttons pushed twice while here. once when someone mocked me, or so it seemed, for caring at "too deep" of a level and then another for coming across as not caring at all. i'm not good at finding an appropriate level to show my feelings of caring for others. i'm not good at knowing when and with what i say will hurt another's feelings while at the same time completely not wanting to hurt their feelings either. so, i feel screwed if i do and screwed if i don't because i don't know an appropriate level or way of showing how much i deeply care about others.

    but, then again, creativity has been such a weak point too that i've gone overboard in trying to learn all about it and how to nurture it in my kids and teach workshops on it. all the while, not being a very creative person myself, to me. this doesn't sound like a weak spot, but something i value in others.

    i can't tell the difference really.

    so, my own inner sense of power comes from knowing that i am the one in control of my own life, my own decisions, my own outlook, my own feelings, my own thoughts, my own energy, etc.

    that's all i can think of right now.

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    If you truely have power at all, then by definition you have such over others. Power is nothing without the capacity to wield it.

    That said, true power derives only from justice, as any SEE will tell you. +Se alone is true power, therefore it is the SEE who truely has it.

    ESI can use power to as a means of producing justice, but SEE must produce it first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    If you truely have power at all, then by definition you have such over others. Power is nothing without the capacity to wield it.

    That said, true power derives only from justice, as any SEE will tell you. +Se alone is true power, therefore it is the SEE who truely has it.

    ESI can use power to as a means of producing justice, but SEE must produce it first.
    i suppose i do wield it. but since i don't mean for it to cause harm or discomfort to others on their path, i go into Ni-land to wield it to manipulate the physical world in ways that are congruent for the highest good of everyone, not just myself.

    is that what you mean by justice?

    i am actually very powerful in that way. and moving my body in strong physical ways strengthens it within me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    If you truely have power at all, then by definition you have such over others. Power is nothing without the capacity to wield it.
    Very true.

    "so, my own inner sense of power comes from knowing that i am the one in control of my own life, my own decisions, my own outlook, my own feelings, my own thoughts, my own energy, etc."

    Power in the sense you are describing is certainly associated with Se. It's not that Se ego types are better at having this kind of control - many are mere slaves to the search for fame, recognition, and positions of power, which compromises their personal identity in the process - but the idea of possession and control is best understood as a statement that an object lies in a particular space (whether real or metaphorical).

    Rational types care more about intentionality ("knowing that...") than irrationals, but this also could be because of Se.
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 05-29-2008 at 03:44 PM.

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    well in socionics Se is the info element and function that i associate with personal power. but Se leading likes to create conditions that motivate the right people to do what the Se leading wants them to do. creative Se creates conditions that exert force or pressure on people to do what the Se creative wants them to do. this is power at its best. and people with Se leading have a way of mobilizing themselves to maximum effectiveness. it's quite a thing to behold.

    but it is important to contrast power with control, too.

    i agree with joy in that you really can't control people. even incarcerated people find a way to resist; the same with oppressed people. people's will finds a way.

    as far as people who say they like to be controlled i am not sure this is really the right way to say it. i think sometimes people like to be led; they don't want to lead. but the minute you try to force them into doing something they don't want to do they dig their heels in, so i disagree that anybody wants to be controlled.

    the one possible exception is with aggressors and victims who enjoy those type of sex games. but even then, it's a game, an illusion, everybody really does have control.

    the other thing i can think of is serial killers...you know like people who eat other people. these folks really do have a driving need to control others. that's why they kill then and eat them. snap, you're dead, now shut up.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I believe that no one can have power over anyone else.
    False, care to talk about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    False, care to talk about it?
    I am not surprised that you hold that view.

    Seen my "Traits of Extremists" thread in Alternative Theories?

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    This might seem counter-intuitive, but I believe the more submissive and passive you are, the more you have power over others. Because just think, it causes people to approach you, to try and 'shake you up' and it gives people the impression that they need to tell you what to do. So you really have the most power over people by essentially doing nothing.

    The more obviously powerful you appear, the more people question your motives. But since nobody can really 'psycho-analyze' pure physical dominance, people that are stereotypically dominant end up controlling things anyway, even when nobody wants them to.

    ps: Shut up. It sounded good when it was in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    This might seem counter-intuitive, but I believe the more submissive and passive you are, the more you have power over others. Because just think, it causes people to approach you, to try and 'shake you up' and it gives people the impression that they need to tell you what to do. So you really have the most power over people by essentially doing nothing.

    The more obviously powerful you appear, the more people question your motives. But since nobody can really 'psycho-analyze' pure physical dominance, people that are stereotypically dominant end up controlling things anyway, even when nobody wants them to.

    ps: Shut up. It sounded good when it was in my head.
    i get what you're saying. my sis says this too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    This might seem counter-intuitive, but I believe the more submissive and passive you are, the more you have power over others. Because just think, it causes people to approach you, to try and 'shake you up' and it gives people the impression that they need to tell you what to do. So you really have the most power over people by essentially doing nothing.
    I know where you're coming from. People can try to exert their will on me all they like, but at the end of the day, the decision is mine and my mind is my own. Sometimes I feel amused by stereotypical 'power' because they're the ones overly exerting themselves in an attempt to control me. I've got control over their time and energy because I can choose to prolong their mission or cut them off at any time I wish.

    Not condoning this behaviour though, becuase it's manipulative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    to be unknown is to be unconquerable.
    This sounds quotable, so I'm quoting it. :-P

    But seriously though, that's a great way of putting it.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    False, care to talk about it?
    I already stated that I do not: "And no, I'm not interested in debating with those who argue that someone can literally, physically force someone to do something. You're missing the point."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I already stated that I do not: "And no, I'm not interested in debating with those who argue that someone can literally, physically force someone to do something. You're missing the point."
    You really have not pointed out the point that people are missing though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    if knowledge is power, then to be unknown is to be unconquerable.
    I never thought of it that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I never thought of it that way.
    Then you should read the Art of War by Sun Tzu, which is sort of a mix of personal and political power.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    The difference between having personal power within yourself and having power over others is intriguing me.

    What is the difference and where do each come from, socionics wise, if they do? Are they both Se things? Or something else? Or Se in a different position? Ideas, thoughts?
    They are not related to socionics. Personal power has to do with the apprehension of reality and knowing how to control it, and political power has to do with understanding the unreal and knowing how to manipulate it.

    Personal power --> gaining strength over others

    Political power --> making others weaker
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Personal power --> gaining strength over others

    Political power --> making others weaker
    I would tend to disagree.

    Political power --> gaining strength over others

    Personal power --> wellness
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    The whole point is that there are different types of "power".
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    perhaps enough to deserve its own discussion?
    I considered this before posting that, and I believe that you're right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I was going to get Augusta's description of Se leading from Rick's site, but AVG's saying "threat detected: exploit link to known exploit site"???
    I'm glad someone else got this too. When I get to the page, I actually get a virus which AVG hunts out and kills (when I tell it to "heal", of course). What do you think it is? I'll ask Rick about it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Interesting topic, dbmmama.

    There's an interesting concept in political theory I've been learning about called the three levels of power. Essentially, it goes like this.

    Level 1 the direct power to make decision x
    Level 2 the power to set agenda x
    Level 3 the power to influence people's preferences and desires so that they want x

    Essentially, this "having power over others" is referring to influence over others. It's different from control, but there is a very thin line between the two concepts. I think, in theory, that any type could influence another in some way. In my opinion, the types are most prone to influence when they're being advised by their dual, or supervised by their supervisor. I'm not making a value judgement of influence here. Some of the effects will be positive; others, no doubt, will be negative. Basically, though, the influence stems from the influencer being competent in something you're not competent in, be that something you desire or something you do not.

    "Power within yourself" can refer to a variety of things. If you're talking about the willpower or strength to do something, that could be Se in the ego, or Se in the super id. However, I don't think it's limited to Se types. What about a Se PoLR, an LII, for example, having the power within herself to straighten out a tedious and tough yet shitty argument? Or an IEE having the power to follow through on their ideas? Power should certainly not be limited to ideas about Se.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Interesting topic, dbmmama.

    There's an interesting concept in political theory I've been learning about called the three levels of power. Essentially, it goes like this.

    Level 1 the direct power to make decision x
    Level 2 the power to set agenda x
    Level 3 the power to influence people's preferences and desires so that they want x

    Essentially, this "having power over others" is referring to influence over others. It's different from control, but there is a very thin line between the two concepts. I think, in theory, that any type could influence another in some way. In my opinion, the types are most prone to influence when they're being advised by their dual, or supervised by their supervisor. I'm not making a value judgement of influence here. Some of the effects will be positive; others, no doubt, will be negative. Basically, though, the influence stems from the influencer being competent in something you're not competent in, be that something you desire or something you do not.

    "Power within yourself" can refer to a variety of things. If you're talking about the willpower or strength to do something, that could be Se in the ego, or Se in the super id. However, I don't think it's limited to Se types. What about a Se PoLR, an LII, for example, having the power within herself to straighten out a tedious and tough yet shitty argument? Or an IEE having the power to follow through on their ideas? Power should certainly not be limited to ideas about Se.
    thanks ezra,

    yes, i agree. for me personally, i need to look at what and where my own personal power is "over" and then it may help me to see what is manifesting where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    thanks ezra,

    yes, i agree. for me personally, i need to look at what and where my own personal power is "over" and then it may help me to see what is manifesting where.
    how funny....after posting that, i saw my sig under it and there it was!

    my personal power is about keeping my mind open to new possibilities within people and not being judgmental about them. that is what i have "worked" on my adult life, opening my mind to understanding others so that i would stop judging them as "wrong" for being themselves. the power of love to me is the power to be open and accepting of others opinions and ideas and to "love" them if i don't agree with them. which has been the hardest thing to do my entire life. so, i remind myself constantly to let go of that judgment and use the power of love instead.

    i felt that i wasn't respected as a child for having my own opinions, ideas and beliefs about things, which were "way out there" compared to the norm way of doing and seeing things. and with not feeling respected for it, i turned to understanding and "demanding" respect for anyone else's opinions, ideas and beliefs. i know demanding respect is not how you get respect, but i didn't know that as a child or even a young adult.

    this is going to tie into what i have to say in liveandletlive's thread about when i understood other people have different cognitive processes.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'm glad someone else got this too. When I get to the page, I actually get a virus which AVG hunts out and kills (when I tell it to "heal", of course). What do you think it is? I'll ask Rick about it.
    Mine didn't give me that option.

    Do you think you could quote Augusta's description of Se leading? It can be found by clicking on a link on the information elements page under theory (or something like that).
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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  36. #36
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Sure. Here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    Black (extraverted) sensing

    Perceives information about what might be called objects' "kinetic energy" — for example, information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. This perception implies the ability to tell what reserves of "kinetic energy" people have and how useful they can be in getting things done. It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses exceptional personal force/will. He is a born organizer of anything. He has the ability to mobilize people to achieve a goal and is able to make use of and manage animate and inanimate objects. Is able to work with things (objects) and reproduce almost any objects based on available samples. This is a reflection of his ability to organize material. These people are known for their striving to materialize their will, energy, and power, and for their desire to impose their will on others.

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    muchas gracias senor
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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