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Thread: duality: the 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th functions

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    Default duality: the 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th functions

    3rd: This is something we feel like we should give attention to, sometimes at the expense of our 1st function.

    4th: This is something we don't feel we can deal with, and furthermore generally don't feel we should have to.

    7th: This is something we generally can't be bothered with. We tell our duals to stop focusing on it so much, and if anyone says that we (or our duals) aren't giving it proper attention, we can confidently tell them to screw off.

    8th: This is something we don't mind taking care of and perhaps even enjoy to some extent, but we don't see it as a priority and generally don't give it all that much attention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    3rd: This is something we feel like we should give attention to, sometimes at the expense of our 1st function.

    4th: This is something we don't feel we can deal with, and furthermore generally don't feel we should have to.

    7th: This is something we generally can't be bothered with. We tell our duals to stop focusing on it so much, and if anyone says that we (or our duals) aren't giving it proper attention, we can confidently tell them to screw off.

    8th: This is something we don't mind taking care of and perhaps even enjoy to some extent, but we don't see it as a priority and generally don't give it all that much attention.
    (It's obviously relevant to you, but...)

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    So basically...

    3rd and 7th:
    You: "I'm concerned about stuff related to my 3rd function."
    Dual: "Well don't be. It doesn't matter as much as you seem to think."

    4th and 8th:
    Dual: "I took care of stuff related to your 4th function."
    You: " Awesome! I'm really glad I don't have to deal with that."

    If we get used to being with our dual and then have to make due without him/her, it sucks really bad because once we've experienced not having to worry about our 4th function, we can't go back. We wonder how we ever got by without our duals. (The same applies to our 5th function, except even more so.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    (It's obviously relevant to you, but...)
    Is it irrelevant to other dual pairs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    3rd: This is something we feel like we should give attention to, sometimes at the expense of our 1st function.

    7th: This is something we generally can't be bothered with. We tell our duals to stop focusing on it so much, and if anyone says that we (or our duals) aren't giving it proper attention, we can confidently tell them to screw off.
    Another note on these:

    If someone says that either you or your dual isn't giving proper attention to your 3rd/7th functions, the person who has it as their 3rd function will try to accommodate the critic. The person who has it as their 7th function will tell his/her dual that there's no need to, that it's an unreasonable request. This helps to strike a balance.

    In this area, I sometimes wonder if it's the person who has that function as their 3rd that is helping his/her dual more than the reverse. I think we often don't give enough attention to our 7th function, and our dual harps on us to give it more consideration, sometimes even taking care of it for us. If such is the case, we're either saying "don't worry about it" or "if you really want to, go for it... but it's not that important".

    Sometimes we agree to go along with the demands of our 7th function if our dual really insists, but they may have to appeal to us through their 1st (our 5th) function in order to convince us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    3rd: This is something we feel like we should give attention to, sometimes at the expense of our 1st function.

    4th: This is something we don't feel we can deal with, and furthermore generally don't feel we should have to.

    7th: This is something we generally can't be bothered with. We tell our duals to stop focusing on it so much, and if anyone says that we (or our duals) aren't giving it proper attention, we can confidently tell them to screw off.

    8th: This is something we don't mind taking care of and perhaps even enjoy to some extent, but we don't see it as a priority and generally don't give it all that much attention.
    You can believe what you want about how the functions work and whatever, but if you think that you do not mind taking care of INTj Ti and Ne you are not an ENTj. ENTj will go out of his way to insure that people aren't analytical or do not present analytical logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    You can believe what you want about how the functions work and whatever, but if you think that you do not mind taking care of INTj Ti and Ne you are not an ENTj. ENTj will go out of his way to insure that people aren't analytical or do not present analytical logic.
    What are you talking about?
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    In youth I didn't give my 7th function (-Te) much consideration. Nowadays it's one of my most often used.

    ...I do think there is a general stigma in the west against use of the id block in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    What are you talking about?
    ENTjs are common sense smart, they don't usually care about proof. They have their ideas, and they usually hold them very strongly. Morality is a big thing for ENTj. Analysis is not something they like, because analysis is without systematics/rules. ENTjs do not think disjunctively, they more or less think holistically, or inductively.

    Let me give you an example. You have an ENTj and an INTj in a room. They all of a sudden start talking about a scenario. The scenario involves a man standing on the edge of a roof of a tall building. All of a sudden a second man pushes the guy on the edge off. When the guy that is falling gets close to the ground, he falls on top of another man, who has a knife in his hand. The guy on the grounds knife goes into the falling guys heart. (Note, that I've actually had this conversation with an ENTj that actually sparked a serious argument). The ENTjs argument was that it was the guy that pushed the guy offs fault, as according to him he began the scenario. ENTjs typically have beliefs in which they hold strongly, so there will always be a guideline to base something on. The INTj would argument that the fault is relative and depends entirely on whose viewpoint the judgment is being made by. This is an anti-systematic argument from the INTj. They believe that there is no rules to judge the incident by(note that in the INTjs judgment he is also using intuition, as is the ENTj).

    ENTjs will usually hate analytical arguments, as INTjs will usually hate common sense arguments. ENTjs tend to have things to base things on, INTjs like things to be unbiased.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I'm curious as to why the first guy was standing on the edge of the roof to begin with.
    I think he was trying not to be stabbed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    OK, here's what I think. First guy, let's call him Fred, had just come upstairs from a party on 39th floor. At the party, he'd met a girl, let's call her Jane. Anyway, Jane had given Fred her number, but Fred, he already had a girlfriend named Mary. So Fred told Jane this, and Jane went away with her pride hurt. She told her step-brother Max (the second guy). Max was a bit of an emotional lad, also a bit on the stupid side, but not a bad apple really. Just a little rough. So Fred goes up to the roof to get some air. While he's up there, he forgets about Jane and admires the city lights view. Suddenly, Max appears on the scene. He approaches Fred, and has a verbal bash at him for rejecting his sister Jane. Only, Jane didn't tell Max the real story ... Jane led Max to believe that it was Fred coming on to her. Fred tells this to Max, but Max calls Fred a liar. There's a bit of push and shove, and Max accidently gives Fred the 1-2-3 oops over the edge. It was an accident, see, but whom is really at fault now? Is it Max ... or is it ... Jane?
    I feel like I'm reading Catch-22 again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    It's not the guy with the knife's fault. The guy falling from the building was already a goner.
    and..... you just exited the world of an INTj or ENTp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    you really think alpha NTs are that detached from common sense? Why should they be?
    um, Alpha NTs are extremely detached from common sense; I mean yea some alpha NTs will use more common sense than others due to societies influence on that person, but overall common sense isn't Alpha NTs thing.

    To note: Because of this depersonalization/derealization is a very common thing for alpha NTs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Maybe he was admiring the view.

    OK, here's what I think. First guy, let's call him Fred, had just come upstairs from a party on the 39th floor. At the party, he'd met a girl, let's call her Jane. Now Jane had given Fred her number, but Fred already had a girlfriend named Mary. Fred told Jane this, and Jane went away, her pride hurt. She told her step-brother Max (the second guy). Max was a bit of an emotional lad, also a bit on the stupid side, but not a bad apple really.

    So Fred goes up to the roof to get some air. While he's up there, he forgets Jane and admires the city lights view. Suddenly, Max appears. He approaches Fred, and has a verbal bash at him for hassling his sister. Only, Jane hadn't told Max the full story, had she. Jane had led Max to believe that it was Fred coming on to her. Fred tells this to Max, but Max calls Fred a liar. There's a bit of push and shove, and Max accidently gives Fred the 1-2-3, oops over the edge. Now whom is to blame for the tragic outcome? Max ... or Jane?
    wow! That was amazing will you marry me Carla?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    In youth I didn't give my 7th function (-Te) much consideration. Nowadays it's one of my most often used.

    ...I do think there is a general stigma in the west against use of the id block in general.
    In your youth? How old are you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Then there was the crappy builder, who was as drunk as a skunk on the job and didn't fit the railings correctly. They found him a month later passed out on his couch after watching the Yankees lose to the Red Sox.
    Lies! The Yankees would never lose to the Red Sox!
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    I saw that

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    ENTjs are common sense smart, they don't usually care about proof. They have their ideas, and they usually hold them very strongly. Morality is a big thing for ENTj. Analysis is not something they like, because analysis is without systematics/rules. ENTjs do not think disjunctively, they more or less think holistically, or inductively.

    Let me give you an example. You have an ENTj and an INTj in a room. They all of a sudden start talking about a scenario. The scenario involves a man standing on the edge of a roof of a tall building. All of a sudden a second man pushes the guy on the edge off. When the guy that is falling gets close to the ground, he falls on top of another man, who has a knife in his hand. The guy on the grounds knife goes into the falling guys heart. (Note, that I've actually had this conversation with an ENTj that actually sparked a serious argument). The ENTjs argument was that it was the guy that pushed the guy offs fault, as according to him he began the scenario. ENTjs typically have beliefs in which they hold strongly, so there will always be a guideline to base something on. The INTj would argument that the fault is relative and depends entirely on whose viewpoint the judgment is being made by. This is an anti-systematic argument from the INTj. They believe that there is no rules to judge the incident by(note that in the INTjs judgment he is also using intuition, as is the ENTj).

    ENTjs will usually hate analytical arguments, as INTjs will usually hate common sense arguments. ENTjs tend to have things to base things on, INTjs like things to be unbiased.
    This is idiotic, you can't infer a truth from a single occurence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    This is idiotic, you can't infer a truth from a single occurence.
    Yea, try telling that to a Gamma.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    This is idiotic, you can't infer a truth from a single occurence.
    Not true.

    "Not all apples are red."
    If you have one occurrence of a green apple, you can infer that that statement is true. Its converse is a real pain to infer though - in the words of David Hume, "induction's a bitch."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Not true.

    "Not all apples are red."
    If you have one occurrence of a green apple, you can infer that that statement is true. Its converse is a real pain to infer though - in the words of David Hume, "induction's a bitch."
    Well thats an in the box thought, but theoretically there is no way to know if the apple is green or red, due to everything being based on perception. Now if you look at it perception wise, one could say that if a green apple exists in ones perception then green apples exists, but then you could debate that person's perception of perception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Well thats an in the box thought, but theoretically there is no way to know if the apple is green or red, due to everything being based on perception. Now if you look at it perception wise, one could say that if a green apple exists in ones perception then green apples exists, but then you could debate that person's perception of perception.
    Oh God.

    Replace "apples" in my counterexample with "perceptions of apples" and "red" with "perceived as red" and I believe it still works, even taking into account your objection.
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    Are we talking about "green" the perception, or "green" the frequency of light?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    *chomp chomp*
    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Oh God.

    Replace "apples" in my counterexample with "perceptions of apples" and "red" with "perceived as red" and I believe it still works, even taking into account your objection.
    you have been on a roll with the cuteness factor for the past few days elro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    4th and 8th:
    Dual: "I took care of stuff related to your 4th function."
    You: " Awesome! I'm really glad I don't have to deal with that."

    If we get used to being with our dual and then have to make due without him/her, it sucks really bad because once we've experienced not having to worry about our 4th function, we can't go back. We wonder how we ever got by without our duals.
    It would technically apply for illusionary as well.



    And, strangely, this feel precisely like what I had with a friend of mine. That is, after I couldn't "use" him like that anymore it really, really sucked. I had to basically relearn how to do things on my own, to kind of learn to live without him. It sounds kind of gay, but it's not. It was like a disabled person getting rid of their disability and then one day it coming back. Or somebody that suddenly got rich, got use to the big life and suddenly lost everything they had. Like a support has been kicked out from under you. It really, really sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Oh God.

    Replace "apples" in my counterexample with "perceptions of apples" and "red" with "perceived as red" and I believe it still works, even taking into account your objection.
    Well then you could say perception of perception of perception of apples. You can't prove anything really, we only have our own perception to go on. Technically we can't prove that apples or even the colors red or green exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Well then you could say perception of perception of perception of apples. You can't prove anything really, we only have our own perception to go on. Technically we can't prove that apples or even the colors red or green exist.
    I understand that your background functions are consciousness-oriented, but that hardly means that perception is an illusion of the id.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Well then you could say perception of perception of perception of apples.
    Why stop there? We could say perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of perception of apples.

    Now tell me, does that mean much of anything at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can't prove anything really, we only have our own perception to go on. Technically we can't prove that apples or even the colors red or green exist.
    We don't have to - all we have to say is that we perceive them - what we perceive can be different from what's actually there. And I don't think someone can be mistaken in saying that they're perceiving something.

    As for the 3478 thing, I think it has merit.
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    4th: This is something we don't feel we can deal with, and furthermore generally don't feel we should have to.
    I respecfully disagree. I think the 4th function is something that causes flat-out neurosis and this evil, very dark emotion that we were born inherently wrong and defected in some way. And no matter what we do we can't get rid of it. It makes you feel like God doesn't love you, and like there's these little worms feasting off your heart and spitting on your face just because they can. Problem is therefore, that we want to deal with it *too* much.

    Your dual is your dual because when you're with them, they go out of their way to show you that in their eyes, it's not a weakness- it's no big deal. They constantly reassure you, like a mother cooing a child. (Eh this might be on the verse of condescenion but you know what I mean) They protect your polr, but in a very natural, humane way so it doesn't come across as patronizing. (And let's face it, even saying things like "Humans are here to help each other grow" is patronizing.) But that's what it is, it's just kind of unspoken and erotic.

    They don't try to change it, but they accept it. The vulnerability is part of the reason why they're turned on by you, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I respecfully disagree. I think the 4th function is something that causes flat-out neurosis and this evil, very dark emotion that we were born inherently wrong and defected in some way. And no matter what we do we can't get rid of it. It makes you feel like God doesn't love you, and like there's these little worms feasting off your heart and spitting on your face just because they can. Problem is therefore, that we want to deal with it *too* much.
    Depends on how well the individual is. I've definitely experienced this in the past (though I wouldn't have put it in those terms).

    However, healthy, happy people do not feel this way about any subject.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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