Weak but valued Te

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Expat]

I think Te dual-seeking can perhaps be summarized as, "do you think my actions, or my explanations of how something works, make sense? I think they do but I'm not sure".

Te HA is more like, "my decisions and explanations make sense. Yes they do. They do. Of course they do. Let me explain it to you once again why they make sense. "

[ScarlettLux]

I think Te dual-seeking can perhaps be summarized as, "do you think my actions, or my explanations of how something works, make sense? I think they do but I'm not sure".

Te HA is more like, "my decisions and explanations make sense. Yes they do. They do. Of course they do. Let me explain it to you once again why they make sense. "

Yes, but how does this differ from Ti HA and dual seeking? "Making sense" seems to be something Ti does as well, so I'm confused as to what the real difference between the two are. It's hard for me to recognize...

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Expat]

Yes, but how does this differ from Ti HA and dual seeking? "Making sense" seems to be something Ti does as well, so I'm confused as to what the real difference between the two are. It's hard for me to recognize...

Ti is related to a "fixed" understanding of something, as in, "ah now I understand how the end of WWI led to WWII" or "now I understand what Ti and Te are" etc. It's an understanding of something that, so you think, once it's understood, you can move on and not worry about it anymore, because it's understood. It's a static understanding, of "unchangeable" connections. Like, once you understand that 2+2=4, that's understood.

Te is related to whether something you have done or are doing or will do (or say, or know, etc) is really working, or corresponds to reality. That is why Te is often related to things like spending money, etc; because these are changeable things, dynamic; just because you spent money wisely yesterday doesn't mean that you'll do it again tomorrow. So perhaps yesterday it was a good idea to invest on pork bellies; that doesn't mean that tomorrow it's going to be a good idea.

Now, a Ti>Te type would try to solve the above problem by finding a "fixed system" which, once understood, could always tell you on which things you should invest or not.

Hmmm. Well my decisions make sense to me, of course I'm not always sure they make sense to other people, but they're my decisions so that really doesn't matter in the end. As for explanations, well, it's pretty important those make sense to others, since that's the whole point of explaining something.

Well, but aren't there kinds of decisions where you are far more certain of their being right than others?

But is that really all there is to it? What briefly in your opinion is Te?

Well I tried to explain it in the LIE and ESI wiki descriptions.

Te is the awareness of the ever-changing external reality and of how to make your actions and decisions always reflect this ever-changing external reality, so that they make the most sense ie work in the most efficient way.

[BLauritson]

The only manifestation I can really think of right now about Te HA (in SEEs at least, I haven't had enough close contact with IEEs to tell if they're the same in this regard) is that they tend to ask lots of questions about a given subject if it comes to mind. They don't do this all the time, but I've always attributed this to Te HA. Although the more I think about it, the more this could just be considered general curiosity. Although thinking about it, a certain SEE with whom I'm acquainted told me that she's capable of going about researching an answer to a question she has, or information regarding a subject, but she gets frustrated if she can't find the answer quickly. Whereas if I'm determined to find something out, I tend to spend as long as is necessary (within reason of course) researching known and trusted sources of information to find the answer. I'm not sure to what extent this applies to all SEEs, but the one I know is often interested in knowing as much detail as possible about something...an example is when I mentioned a news story regarding an arrest or something like that, and she was curious about things like the details of the people involved, their backgrounds and things like that. Again, I don't know where the line is drawn between general curiosity and Te HA, but that's my experiences with it at any rate.

[Park]

Ti is related to a "fixed" understanding of something, as in, "ah now I understand how the end of WWI led to WWII" or "now I understand what Ti and Te are" etc. It's an understanding of something that, so you think, once it's understood, you can move on and not worry about it anymore, because it's understood. It's a static understanding, of "unchangeable" connections. Like, once you understand that 2+2=4, that's understood.

Te is related to whether something you have done or are doing or will do (or say, or know, etc) is really working, or corresponds to reality. That is why Te is often related to things like spending money, etc; because these are changeable things, dynamic; just because you spent money wisely yesterday doesn't mean that you'll do it again tomorrow. So perhaps yesterday it was a good idea to invest on pork bellies; that doesn't mean that tomorrow it's going to be a good idea.

Thanks Expat, that's very helping. You are great at clarifying things I am not completely sure about and you put observations into words perfectly.

[Joy]

Peter spends a lot of time reading wikipedia, news, and other informational articles about whatever. I enjoy learning about things that I find interesting, but personally I don't have the patience to read that much information that I don't have a particular interest in or use for. When I do find information interesting even though it's not useful, it usually has to do with a science of some form.

Perhaps it's because he's the introvert in a Te/Fi relationship (especially since he's IJ). He still asks me for information a lot, but I tell him what we don't need to bother finding out as much as I do what I do know or what we should find out. Maybe he'll have something to add.

[Joy]

The only manifestation I can really think of right now about Te HA (in SEEs at least, I haven't had enough close contact with IEEs to tell if they're the same in this regard) is that they tend to ask lots of questions about a given subject if it comes to mind. They don't do this all the time, but I've always attributed this to Te HA. Although the more I think about it, the more this could just be considered general curiosity. Although thinking about it, a certain SEE with whom I'm acquainted told me that she's capable of going about researching an answer to a question she has, or information regarding a subject, but she gets frustrated if she can't find the answer quickly. Whereas if I'm determined to find something out, I tend to spend as long as is necessary (within reason of course) researching known and trusted sources of information to find the answer.

The SEE's I've known are curious by nature, but not enough to go through any amount of trouble to get answers. They like being around someone who either already has the answer, can quickly/effortlessly get the answer, or can point them in a good direction to find the answer themselves. They're as curious about how things work and why they work that way as they are about interesting facts about a given subject.

I'm not sure to what extent this applies to all SEEs, but the one I know is often interested in knowing as much detail as possible about something...an example is when I mentioned a news story regarding an arrest or something like that, and she was curious about things like the details of the people involved, their backgrounds and things like that. Again, I don't know where the line is drawn between general curiosity and Te HA, but that's my experiences with it at any rate.

I do think there are a lot of SEE's who are like this, some more so than others. It's usually more like they're wondering out loud than anything, from what I understand.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Ezra]

Yes, but how does this differ from Ti HA and dual seeking? "Making sense" seems to be something Ti does as well, so I'm confused as to what the real difference between the two are. It's hard for me to recognize...

Instead of talk about "making sense" it's about "being logical". At least from my perspective, Ti HA or DS types will often spend a considerable amount of time caring about their theories being logical, even though they often fail to achieve this.

Ti is related to a "fixed" understanding of something, as in, "ah now I understand how the end of WWI led to WWII" or "now I understand what Ti and Te are" etc. It's an understanding of something that, so you think, once it's understood, you can move on and not worry about it anymore, because it's understood. It's a static understanding, of "unchangeable" connections. Like, once you understand that 2+2=4, that's understood.

Yes, this is definitely what I utilise more. Every day my understanding of Ti is getting better and better.

Now, a Ti>Te type would try to solve the above problem by finding a "fixed system" which, once understood, could always tell you on which things you should invest or not.

This is ridiculous that anyone would ever try to do this. Surely a Ti ego type would recognise that this would be a poor route to take, even if they do devalue Te. It obviously doesn't work; you can observe the economy to recognise it. There is simply not a pattern. You cannot predict everything.

@HC: Don't apologize for the length of the post, it was interesting and informative.

Hostage_Child, never apologise for anything you write here, unless it actively offends someone in some way (and even then, it may not be necessary). Everyone who contributes deserves fair consideration.

In the past I have done tons of research and have ended up doing fine, but always feel better about things I've done before in that way than new ventures.

Would you say that this is the approach you took with socionics?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Ezra]

But say, with something as complex and as subjective as psychology. I like learning ways things correlate, but it is more like collecting instances of possible Ti correlations rather than ones that are set in stone. It's like collecting "hypotheses" rather than some sort of static "equation." It's like a spider making and remaking a web. It is kind of an artifical structure, trying to form a duplicate of whatever real correlations exist in the real world.

That doesn't contradict what Ti is. Basically, you can add to said structure, but whatever is there it will be hard to change, because whatever is there is based on something you believe to have been correct then, and so always correct at any other time.

It was all just for fun so I never approached it very seriously, just followed whatever I found interesting and read about that.

Do you still do this in your opinion?

[Ms. Kensington]

i agree with most of expat's second post about Te and Ti HA.

in my experience, Te HA manifests in wanting information that is factually accurate now. I see this mostly in Te HA. For Te dual seeking, I see it more as wanting someone who shares a goal of making things run smoothly (for ISFj) or usefully for a cause (INFj). It's not really about things "making sense" as it is being efficient. But i still see the wanting accurate information too. I don't really see that as much in INFjs. I see the dual seeking for INFjs more like.. "you show me you love me by doing things, not talking".

Ti HA can manifest by wanting information but the purpose of which is to support their points. They want to make sure that what they are saying or feeling makes logical sense. Ime this doesn't really matter at all to ExFp. They want something "useful", dammit.

[Exodus]

I think Te H.A. and Ti H.A. are being confused here. The difference is not that both want factual information only one won't change their mind. Ti definitely wants constantly updated information about a point of interest; say, sports stats or political rankings--they just inhale it! The difference is that Te H.A. is about finding the best process or method and Ti H.A. is about finding the best inter-correlations between realms of data.

Ti, like I've said before, esp. in H.A., is not a "fixed" and unchangeable understanding. I do not think that is "supposed" to be what "static" means. My understanding is always evolving and always open to speculation. I do not stop reformulating one same understanding of correlation once I have learned one way of looking at it. I want to learn all the ways. With math, like 2+2=4, of course "static" means unchanging.

I think you're confusing Ti with how it manifests in different functions. You're right that Ti is involved in revising one's understanding, but once you find a new Ti system it has to supersede the old one completely - unlike how new Te information can come in constantly but only make small and incremental changes to one's understanding. "Now I understand X" is a very good way to put it.

"My understanding is always evolving and always open to speculation."

That's because you're dynamic and irrational. :wink:

As for Te in the Super-id: I usually see it when Fi ego types are working really hard on something that absolutely has to get done (e.g. making 1000 note cards for an exam) without any discretion as to what to spend their effort on. To a Ti ego type the entire process is irrelevant once you've figured out which components (steps, data) are most important.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The crush that Expat and Diana have on each other is both cute and nauseating.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Exodus]

I completely disagree with this. I do not through out everything I've learned when I find some new evidence to add to the data, and neither do the intellectual Ti Egos I've known. Many pieces of comprehension may be touched by the new understanding, but that is different than a system being completely thrown out, rather than modified.

ok, you don't have to throw out the whole system, per se, but the idea is, either a relation (A => B) between two things exists or it doesn't, a thing either fits into a category or it doesn't - so the system has to be modified in discrete steps.

[Kristiina]

Ti is related to a "fixed" understanding of something, as in, "ah now I understand how the end of WWI led to WWII" or "now I understand what Ti and Te are" etc. It's an understanding of something that, so you think, once it's understood, you can move on and not worry about it anymore, because it's understood. It's a static understanding, of "unchangeable" connections. Like, once you understand that 2+2=4, that's understood.

Te is related to whether something you have done or are doing or will do (or say, or know, etc) is really working, or corresponds to reality. That is why Te is often related to things like spending money, etc; because these are changeable things, dynamic; just because you spent money wisely yesterday doesn't mean that you'll do it again tomorrow. So perhaps yesterday it was a good idea to invest on pork bellies; that doesn't mean that tomorrow it's going to be a good idea.

Now, a Ti>Te type would try to solve the above problem by finding a "fixed system" which, once understood, could always tell you on which things you should invest or not.



Well, but aren't there kinds of decisions where you are far more certain of their being right than others?




Well I tried to explain it in the LIE and ESI wiki descriptions.

Te is the awareness of the ever-changing external reality and of how to make your actions and decisions always reflect this ever-changing external reality, so that they make the most sense ie work in the most efficient way.

Good post!

On that background, one part of my Ti-dual seeking is that I always try to find solutions that work now and will always work for each similar situation. Suddenly every problem becomes so difficult. And when I finally think of a solution that seems IDEAL, then Te types say it's okay, because this current situation might have been better with a more specific solution, but that works as well, so it's okay. And this Ti dominant (not sure is she's LSI or LII) says "wow, that's so sophisticated, such a good solution!" which is exactly what I want to hear! And one LSI always says I have things supremely organized. When I find a solution, it's a solution that really works. yay!

[JuJu]

A personal example to illustrate Ti Polr:

A few years ago at Northwestern I got a C in Math--maybe it was a C+--regardless, it was the lowest grade I received there... The professor (INTx, prob Gamma,) believed that "kids today" relied too heavily on Calc formulas. He wanted us to "think for [our]selves, dammit," instead of being "human cheat-sheets," as I believe he put it--something along those lines... He would rarely give us the conventional formulas--when he did, he would not explain them, preferring that we "figure it out 'the whys' by [our]selves." Supposedly, this would engender better understanding of blah blah

The course was full of pre-meds, for whom this kinda stuff came easily. I was an Art History major. Math had never been my strongest suit. If I was going to pass that course, I needed those formulas explained to me step-by-step--I needed 'to know' (haha Gulenko,) and 'to understand.' Furthermore, I needed the formulas right in front of me while taking the test, b/c I sure as hell couldn't remember them... Regardless, verboten by the INTx.

He had me do an equation on the board once--I'd never heard belly laughs in a math class before.

Despite me begging him explain the formulas, he stuck to his guns... Ultimately, he took pity on me. Near the end of the course, we had a long conversation about how I might wanna go see a doctor to get tested for dyslexia; (I believe he wanted to say 'retardation')--and gave me a better grade than I probably deserved.

Thus my Ti Polr was thwarted--and the truth is: even if I had all of those formulas, and they'd been explained well, they would've left my mind forever the minute that the course was over.

[Ms. Kensington]

what an ass

[hellothere]

A personal example to illustrate what Expat's saying about Ti HA:

A few years ago at Northwestern I got a C in Math--maybe it was a C+--regardless, it was the lowest grade I received there... The professor (INTx, prob Gamma,) believed that "kids today" relied too heavily on Calc formulas. He wanted us to "think for [our]selves, dammit," instead of being "human cheat-sheets," as I believe he put it--something along those lines... He would rarely give us the conventional formulas--when he did, he would not explain them, preferring that we "figure it out 'the whys' by [our]selves." Supposedly, this would engender better understanding of blah blah

The course was full of pre-meds, for whom this kinda stuff came easily. I was an Art History major. Math had never been my strongest suit. If I was going to pass that course, I needed those formulas explained to me step-by-step--I needed 'to know' (haha Gulenko.) Furthermore, I needed the formulas right in front of me while taking the test, b/c I sure as hell couldn't remember them... Regardless, verboten by the INTx.

He had me do an equation on the board once--I'd never heard belly laughs in a math class before.

Despite me begging him explain the formulas, he stuck to his guns... Ultimately, he took pity on me. Near the end of the course, we had a long conversation about how I might wanna go see a doctor to get tested for dyslexia; (I believe he wanted to say 'retardation')--and gave me a better grade than I probably deserved.

Thus my Ti HA was thwarted--and the truth is: even if I had all of those formulas, and they'd been explained well, they would've left my mind forever the minute that the course was over.

you mean your Te hidden agenda? I wonder if your professor's approach is more Ti than Te, because as I understand it, Te-creative types should complement Te-hidden agenda types nicely

[JuJu]

you mean your Te hidden agenda? I wonder if your professor's approach is more Ti than Te, because as I understand it, Te-creative types should complement Te-hidden agenda types nicely

Ah crap, I meant Ti Polr... sry about that--I'll change it... Yeah, I believe that he was trying to get us to use our Ti, which for me was difficult... Ti for me is in the 4th position (Polr,) Te is 6th (HA.)