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Thread: Democratic Voting

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    Default Democratic Voting

    After checking type statistics I am curious if democracy is really fair or not. And what the deffinition of fair in america is. If most people are ESTJ's (provided all types vote equally) ... Business would dominate ethics, resistance to change would dominate, vs. the opposite, and so forth. What are everyones thoughts on this? Also, would it change anything if we considered the fact that our own mind is elitist, and one personality dominates the host person?
    -Slava


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    Default Re: Democratic Voting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    ... Business would dominate ethics, resistance to change would dominate, vs. the opposite, and so forth.
    Sounds like a pretty good discription to our current state of affairs doesn't it?

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    Yes, because one type of liberty often suppresses another. Social and artistic liberty may clash with freedom of enerprise and autonomy. France may accuse USA of being puritanical, and by the same token, the US may accuse France of being Socialist. But what you have to know is that neither is better or worse -- people should be free to move to a country where they can get the type of freedom that is most important to them.

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    Look at the oldham thing on this site for the ESTJ, Leisurely the freedom to do as one pleases compulsory activity Passive Agressive

    Hidden Agenda: to be perfect

    Remind you of US's values?
    -Slava


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    No that's UK, US is ENTj

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    You are saying its ENTJ based ont he other topic.... but if you look at the stats majority of the country is ESTJ by numbers, ENTJ's however have the highest max income.
    -Slava


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    The American Dream isn't about perfection, it's about money and material posessions, which corresponds to ENTj's secret agenda -- to be rich. The British are prim and self-posessed -- ESTj's secret agenda to be perfect. (ENTj).

    Americans tend to make a lot of etiquette blunders (NT).

    Americans' demonization of sexuality which is seen as a potential source of great psychological trauma indicates painful Si. A certain lack of taste in archetecture, a preference for dressing down, dressing casually, and inability to match colors and textures well indecate painful Si. Although being T the British had few great painters, but in architecture, clothes, and other decorative arts they exhibit a faultless aesthetic sense (creative Si-). With superior technology the average life span in the US is ten years lower than in France (ESFj). Indiscriminate taste in food, large number of overweight people, many people being totally dependant on restaurants and microwave dinners for their provisions, all seems to point to Americans' painful function.

    American English is very rich in metaphoric slang (Ni as creative function), while British English is more formal and sensory.

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    I see your point. But why do you think that the rarer personality sets the standards for the country? Isnt intuition seen as a women's trait? shyness intuition feelings and impulsiveness..... the ESTJ's duality. "buy the all new ... sheik intuition" ... that commercial pisses me off.
    -Slava


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    I have not seen many ESTjs here, and I lived in six major cities: San Diego, Los Angeles, Houston, Boston, and San Francisco, Honolulu.

    I think the stats were poorly done.

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    Every source of stats on the general population shows the ESTJ dominance. They usually work as managers and administrators.
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Every source of stats on the general population shows the ESTJ dominance. They usually work as managers and administrators.
    How many sources and which ones. No generalizations please. How were the types of these people identified?

    I don't think that truck drivers and grocers were asked to take the Myers Briggs Type Indicator.

    If the tests were administered by corporations or psychologists, than the stats would only represent a certain class of people. On the other hand if their type was diagnosed vit "typewatching", than the accuracy of the stats would be very questionable. For one thing, ENTj is one of the LEAST intuitive intuitives, and therefore can be confused for ESTj by bad typologists.

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    Check the book, Gifts differing... pages ... 31 to 51... look especially carefully on 51... also take a look at various internet sources.... and other books...
    -Slava


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    MBTI statistics for 88 - 91

    The 16 Types
    ISTJ 15.6%
    ISFJ 11.5%
    INFJ 2.6%
    INTJ 3.5%
    ISTP 6.4%
    ISFP 4.5%
    INFP 4.3%
    INTP 5.2%
    ESTP 4.8%
    ESFP 5.7%
    ENFP 6.3%
    ENTP 4.7%
    ESTJ 9.9%
    ESFJ 9.6%
    ENFJ 2.5%
    ENTJ 2.8%

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    Those stats totally dont make the ENTJ look good... check the books though, I trust stats from the book bette rthan the net.
    -Slava


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    MBTI Statistics 98 - 99

    ISTJ
    M - 16.4%
    F - 6.9%
    T - 11.6%

    ISFJ
    M - 8.1%
    F - 19.4%
    T - 13.8%

    INFJ
    M - 1.3%
    F - 1.6%
    T - 1.46%

    INTJ
    M - 3.3%
    F - 0.8%
    T - 2.1%

    ISTP
    M - 8.5%
    F - 2.4%
    T - 5.4%

    ISFP
    M - 7.6%
    F - 9.9%
    T - 8.8%

    INFP
    M - 4.1%
    F - 4.6
    T - 4.4%

    INTP
    M - 4.8%
    F - 1.8%
    T - 3.3%

    ESTP
    M - 5.6%
    F - 3.0%
    T - 4.3%

    ESFP
    M - 6.9%
    F - 10.1%
    T - 8.5%

    ENFP
    M - 6.4%
    F - 9.7%
    T - 8.1%

    ENTP
    M - 4.0%
    F - 2.4%
    T - 3.2%

    ESTJ
    M - 11.2%
    F - 6.3%
    T - 8.7%

    ESFJ
    M - 7.5%
    F - 16.9%
    T - 12.3%

    ENFJ
    M - 1.6%
    F - 3.3%
    T - 2.5%

    ENTJ
    M - 2.7%
    F - 0.9%
    T - 1.8%

    88 - 89
    ISTJ 15.6%
    ISFJ 11.5%
    INFJ 2.6%
    INTJ 3.5%
    ISTP 6.4%
    ISFP 4.5%
    INFP 4.3%
    INTP 5.2%
    ESTP 4.8%
    ESFP 5.7%
    ENFP 6.3%
    ENTP 4.7%
    ESTJ 9.9%
    ESFJ 9.6%
    ENFJ 2.5%
    ENTJ 2.8%

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    Based on those stats (which are different than the book). The istj, only one letter away :-) ... but ENTJ is rarest. So its interesting that the country's personality reflects the rarest type within. But if america is indeed ENTJ then it makes sense why america loves to run the world.
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    Every source of stats on the general population shows the ESTJ dominance.
    OK, well the above three showed ISTJ dominance.

    P.S. We should not put an equals sign between Socionic types and MBTI/Kiersey types. MBTI people do not know about painful function, secret agenda, creative function etc.

    They don't have the understanding of functions and their nuances -- all they have is four preferences. Since ENTj is the most "sensory" intuitive type, it is probably typed as ESTj.

    Frankly the typewatching school seems to be full of b.s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Based on those stats (which are different than the book). The istj, only one letter away :-) ... but ENTJ is rarest. So its interesting that the country's personality reflects the rarest type within. But if america is indeed ENTJ then it makes sense why america loves to run the world.
    Two letters away actually. MBTI ISTJ is Socionics' ISTp

    here is what's ironic

    US

    ENTJ nicknamed general
    ESTP nicknamed wheeler dealer

    RUSSIA

    ESTp nicknamed Zhukov (general)
    ENTj nicknamed enterpreneur

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    http://www.voltsamps.com/book01.jpg
    http://www.voltsamps.com/book02.jpg

    thats out of the book Giftes Differing, pages 31 - 33, showing statistics of college prep, high school students. keep in mind the non college prep stats also show a dominant ESTJ. Just to show you where my sources are.
    -Slava


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    Gifts Differing was written during the 1970s right? Well according to the theory of changing quadrables, I'd say that 1970s were very Delta.

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    when do you think alpha wil take over :-)
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    Alpha was like 1920 -- Art Modern, Art Deco styles

    Beta -- WWII and classic Rock and Roll eras (50s and 60s)

    Skinner, behavioral psychology -- very ISTjish. Cary Grant (a mixture of ESTj and ISTj). Elvis -- ESTp.

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    Does it usually repeat, or does the society die, like a human sorta, and revolution happens?

    BTW: Do you by any chance know the exact factor that causes a specific type to be born more often or forced into a type after birth.
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    Well, we are actually a democratic republic, since the original writers of our Constitution and government thought that the average person wasn't smart enough to vote correctly, thus the (outdated) Electoral College system just about everyone wants to get rid of.
    I disagree with American being ESFj, I see American politics severly ENTj. Our system is hardly a democratic republic anymore, laws get passed(DCMA) etc which get much more influenced with money from big business through loopholes, with the added benefit of having a moron for a president who's 'tax breaks' are for the very very richest. It's all, all, all, about business and money in the US. There are no ethics involved, unless the american 'media' gets involved, then it's just sensationalism where the government acts much more strongly so they don't look bad. Something unethical happens to you, you bitch and bitch and complain and threaten lawsuits, nothing happens. You write a letter in the newspaper(this happened to my mom), action happens immediately. I despise American politics in it's current state. Well, I hate politics in general. However, I must say, England is probably ESTj. ESTjs are not 'all about money', although they are all about business. Ethical business. ESTjs are excellent about being fair managers, taking orders from the upper authority and passing it down to below(usually they do it in a semi-passive agressive way if they disagree with the management, doing it technically but doing it wrong in some way to express their disagreement). ESTjs are very ethical. ENTjs are not.
    In conclusion, America's current politics suck, especially with the Republicans(ie rich people and dumb southerners who like to go to war for 'honor') in the Senate, House, and White House. We are fucked. I mean we went to war for resources, and my gas prices still went way the hell up??? While I very much disagreed with the war, can't we have their oil now they we ruined their government in the 'name of freedom' and are destroying their culture, why can't the oil money go to the people of the US instead of corrupt companies with ties to the decision makers??

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    Is there any country being ENTP? I know that Bulgaria by Lőtov is ISFP.

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    Shouldn't ESTJ and ENTJ have the same level of ethics? I read somewhere that ESTJ's try to cheat but aren't good at it so they don't do it anymore.

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    It's more complicated than that.

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    I look at these supposed "ethnic sociotypes" as merely a manifestation of the political state of affairs and the economic system which is most strongly impelemented: in America, the economic system is largely based on the whole "free-market" idea, whereas previously mentioned, France is rather socialistic in temperament. Thus, the general "aura" that cultures resonate are merely the effects that the laws of the country and its economic system has on it; its completely independant of the information metabolism. And ENTjs are far from the most commonly represented type in America; I also disagree with the fact that one can simply reduce a culture to a mere type; I believe quadrables are a far more accuarate representation of the populus in its entirety.

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    I had the assumption that we were all typing countries in an extraverted political sense...not the mass majority of the most popular type. How a country acts in the world/UN/non-UN sense, etc. That's why I said the US acts like an ENTJ to the world. (perhaps they started acting like an ENTJ when the became the greatest military power?)

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    Another viewpoint is the economic system, I agree. I saw an interesting documentary on the psychopathy of the "Corporation" as an individual(as they are legally in the US), called, "The Corporation". Labeled them as a psychopath.

    There are really no people to blame for the system that the US has become(a corporatist nation). One a corporation gets on wall street, the board has a responsibility to create profit for the shareholders, or they get replaced. It's a system, really. A Corporation, if psychoanalyzed, appears like a flattened ENTj. Flattened as in just ego functions. Hardly any ethic appears.

    A side note: Bill Gates: stereotypical ENTj. Who would have the balls to lie to the big guys at the biggest computer company at the time, then go buy the software for cheap in WA they he told IBM he already had? And look at how Microsoft has been managed from it's conception.

    Sorry for the tangents, I thought we might type other systems besides governments.

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