Fe Demonisation

[Ezra]

Gilly brought up a great and very important point in a stickam convo on Friday evening (early hours of Saturday morning for me), and since it hasn't yet been brought up on the forum, I am going to do so. Basically, Fe ego types - particularly Fe base types - have I think been experiencing a horrid level of bitterness for the completely wrong reasons. People normally associate Fe with manipulation, bitchiness and fakeness; acting ingenuinely. Well, I'm sure many Fe ego types have been offended by this, for the simple fact that they don't act any more fake than anyone else does. In fact, Fe is misunderstood. What Fe is about is not just manipulating others emotionally; it's about using one's own internal emotional state to generate an emotional response from others.

[dbmmama]

Gilly brought up a great and very important point in a stickam convo on Friday evening (early hours of Saturday morning for me), and since it hasn't yet been brought up on the forum, I am going to do so. Basically, Fe ego types - particularly Fe base types - have I think been experiencing a horrid level of bitterness for the completely wrong reasons. People normally associate Fe with manipulation, bitchiness and fakeness; acting ingenuinely. Well, I'm sure many Fe ego types have been offended by this, for the simple fact that they don't act any more fake than anyone else does. In fact, Fe is misunderstood. What Fe is about is not just manipulating others emotionally; it's about using one's own internal emotional state to generate an emotional response from others.

YEAH!!! I am not a manipulative person AT ALL. That manipulation thing about Fe WAS throwing me! (if i really am Fe base) i express myself and it's up to another how they want to take it or not. i am NOT out to change anyone in any way, shape or form. change comes only when a person wants it intrinsically, i just happen to be a catalyst to it as i "help" others who want it.

[Kristiina]

YEAH!!! I am not a manipulative person AT ALL. That manipulation thing about Fe WAS throwing me! (if i really am Fe base) i express myself and it's up to another how they want to take it or not. i am NOT out to change anyone in any way, shape or form. change comes only when a person wants it intrinsically, i just happen to be a catalyst to it as i "help" others who want it.

+10000000

I don't understand the ARROGANCE to call fake - I laugh when I'm happy, I cry when I'm sad, I YELL when I'm angry and I pout when I don't want to talk with someone. I go out of my skin to express my feelings as accurately as I can, so that no one will think I'm calm when I'm anxious or that I'm ok when I'm actually pissed off. What is fake about that, pray tell me!

Delta types smile when they're angry, they're shy quiet when they're happy etc. IMO, that comes a lot closer to being fake!

is about wanting your emotions OUT THERE. Emotions aren't some inner state BS. Emotions are a way to communicate with others!

[dbmmama]

+10000000

I don't understand the ARROGANCE to call fake - I laugh when I'm happy, I cry when I'm sad, I YELL when I'm angry and I pout when I don't want to talk with someone. I go out of my skin to express my feelings as accurately as I can, so that no one will think I'm calm when I'm anxious or that I'm ok when I'm actually pissed off. What is fake about that, pray tell me!

Delta types smile when they're angry, they're shy quiet when they're happy etc. IMO, that comes a lot closer to being fake!

is about wanting your emotions OUT THERE. Emotions aren't some inner state BS. Emotions are a way to communicate with others!

back atcha again! Yes, that's what i thought was fake about Fi too! but, i guess as we learn about this stuff, we've got to open our minds to not be so judgmental and realize that is their way, even if we don't agree with it. to each his own. but, that doesn't mean we have to hang out with people who don't jibe with our way of being.

i may come across not so "bubbly" irl because as i express myself and my emotional state in the way you describe Kristiina, then i'm being real to myself and that's not always bubbly. sometimes it is sad, a lot of times it can be sad or mad. i've just worked on turning that into happy more often and then each of those emotions comes out.

my second boy is just like me as a kid and he is ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH THOSE EMOTIONS. i remember being told to calm down and shit like that all of the time. repression, repression, repression. aaaa, no thank you! will not do that to my kids! i help them find ways to channel that emotion, art, singing, dancing, joking, creative channels seem to work the best.

not repression, expression.

here is my current website:
http://www.MUSEPlayground.com

[Ezra]

How is that not being manipulative?

It is, but I was saying that Fe isn't about the kind of manipulation people are prone to thinking it is.

As far as the way Te/Fi types see Fe as superficial, so what? Fe is to Gamma/Delta as Te is to Alpha/Beta. Fe/Ti types can (and often do) think of Te as superficial. There's no reason to whine about people valuing their own quadra values in a place like this.

FTR, I don't see Fe as superficial.

I see as fake when...

[INDENT]you walk into a store and some store employee is there at the door to greet you with a big fake smile plastered over there face. they say "hello" with such vibrant enthusiasm it makes you want to cringe. they ask you how your day was and what your plans are for later (what do they care? they don't even know you and it's none of their business). all the while the fake smile and over-the-top enthusiasm hangs over them like a toxic mist, and all you want to do is get away from them as quickly as possible. (I know they're paid to do that, so it's not so much them I take issue with but with whatever stupid corporate philosophy requires this charade of insincere behavior.)

Exactly. This is the ultimate shit use of it. This is why I stayed in retail for only a month. I don't dig the "come on, people, let's sell!" atmosphere, even if all the fake Fe is designed to get you sell you stuff.

That's your way of justifying your own behavior on this forum, right? Bleah.

It's one of the things that make me type, for instance, Tony Blair as LIE rather than EIE, as is sometimes suggested. In my experience, true Fe-ego types react to his "call me Tony" and huge-grin personality precisely the way you describe. It's a LIE faking for political purposes, not true which is what you get from Barack Obama, for instance.

So, essentially, again, it's poor use of Fe. The problem with someone like Gordon Brown is that he has no Fe at all. So what you get is this kind of uncharismatic prime minister with a fantastic track record. He doesn't have the people skills to be a politican, but he has all the others. Normally it's the other way round.

[Blaze]

i'd venture to say that when anyone is using their leading function, it's probably not overt manipulation. it's more like who they are. an individuals clearest perceptions are related to information elements which match their leading function, so when people use their leading function they are not trying to be manipulative. and i would say that we should pay close attention to people when they are using their leading function, because they are likely to be absolutely correct. so, kind of like, i would ask an IEI about the timing of something, or an LIE about changing facts and data, or LII about the validity of theory X.

so, like Expat is saying, when you go further down the model A, and use second, third, fourth functions, then the intent is more likely to be perceived as manipulative. as you venture into the unconscious, attempts to use those functions appear to be more and more futile. heh. until you reach the id, i guess, then the person just feels like that data isn't all that important.

lightbulb: people are least likely to be manipulative when using their id functions, since they don't value them anyway. hahahaha

*edit: nevermind about the leading function. it's the id functions which are least "maniuplative". guess i just needed to think out loud on that one.

[Rubicon]

when someone who doesn't even really know you that well tells you to "smile" or encourages you to participate or enjoy something, as though it is a requirement. If they actually cared so much about you "enjoying yourself" then they would just let you be. You are in the mood you are in and if you're being sincere, then you're only reflecting that mood. Asking you to change your mood to one that better pleases them (not you) is asking you to garner a facade of fake behavior yourself - not to mention prying into your private feelings as if they belong to everyone.

I really dislike that sort of thing too. It’s extremely rude, because the person has no idea who you are, what you might be going through. It’s basically saying “I don’t give two hoots how you’re feeling right now. I don’t know who you are, but make me feel better please.”

+10000000

I don't understand the ARROGANCE to call fake - I laugh when I'm happy, I cry when I'm sad, I YELL when I'm angry and I pout when I don't want to talk with someone. I go out of my skin to express my feelings as accurately as I can, so that no one will think I'm calm when I'm anxious or that I'm ok when I'm actually pissed off. What is fake about that, pray tell me!

Delta types smile when they're angry, they're shy quiet when they're happy etc. IMO, that comes a lot closer to being fake!

is about wanting your emotions OUT THERE. Emotions aren't some inner state BS. Emotions are a way to communicate with others!

So I don’t walk around on the street with a smile plastered on my face if I don’t feel like it, but at the same time I think you can get too carried away with ‘being true to yourself’ and just end up being selfish. It’s not fake to try and make a friend feel better by smiling and trying to lift their spirits even when you don’t feel like it. It’s not fake to smile at a stranger who asks for directions in order to make them feel like they’re not a complete waste of your time. If you’ve been invited to a dinner party or something, are you going to walk around with a scowl on your face just to let people know how you’re really feeling? The people you interact with are therefore influenced by your mood, and go home feeling a bit worse, and you’re thinking “I feel good about myself. I was honest about my feelings.” Well, good on ya. W00t.

Saying that Delta types are fake when they don’t represent their true emotions is arrogant and closeminded. Being diplomatic is a decision to put your own feelings aside for the benefit of the other person. It’s not pretending that you’re feeling a certain way. It’s seeing that you have a chance to influence someone for the better, and being unselfish enough to ignore yourself while you’re interacting with them. There’s a time and place to get your feelings ‘OUT THERE’ – sure - but you should realise it’s not always about you.

[Mea]

Saying that Delta types are fake when they don’t represent their true emotions is arrogant and closeminded. Being diplomatic is a decision to put your own feelings aside for the benefit of the other person. It’s not pretending that you’re feeling a certain way. It’s seeing that you have a chance to influence someone for the better, and being unselfish enough to ignore yourself while you’re interacting with them. There’s a time and place to get your feelings ‘OUT THERE’ – sure - but you should realise it’s not always about you.

Referring to what you replied me earlier and this post, I really don't get it.
Saying someone is fake is an opinion. Thinking someone is arrogant, close-minded, also an opinion.
Not everyone is gonna agree that a particular person is arrogant or not. I don't see why it had to be stated that "Saying that Delta types are fake when they don’t represent their true emotions is arrogant and closeminded". I don't see anything wrong if Betas were to think that way, it's just their opinion, not arrogant nor narrow-minded; just different.

People have different opinions, perception, that's precisely why socionics talks about relationships between people and why they work or don't work.

I definitely agree with what Joy said

As far as the way Te/Fi types see Fe as superficial, so what? Fe is to Gamma/Delta as Te is to Alpha/Beta. Fe/Ti types can (and often do) think of Te as superficial. There's no reason to whine about people valuing their own quadra values in a place like this.

Perhaps why I don't get it is because of our different quadra values. So nothing personal.

[Rubicon]

Referring to what you replied me earlier and this post, I really don't get it.
Saying someone is fake is an opinion. Thinking someone is arrogant, close-minded, also an opinion.
Not everyone is gonna agree that a particular person is arrogant or not. I don't see why it had to be stated that "Saying that Delta types are fake when they don’t represent their true emotions is arrogant and closeminded". I don't see anything wrong if Betas were to think that way, it's just their opinion, not arrogant nor narrow-minded; just different.

People have different opinions, perception, that's precisely why socionics talks about relationships between people and why they work or don't work.

But opinions equal perceptions which may or may not represent the truth. If you think a person is being mean in saying something to you when in actual fact their motive is one of kindness - well, your perceptions don't represent the truth. They are your opinions, but they're wrong. I'm not talking about personal preferences and likes or dislikes. Of course, we all prefer a style of communication over another. But calling a person fake is an accusation of dishonesty. You'd better make sure you're right before you call someone dishonest.

[dbmmama]

I really dislike that sort of thing too. It’s extremely rude, because the person has no idea who you are, what you might be going through. It’s basically saying “I don’t give two hoots how you’re feeling right now. I don’t know who you are, but make me feel better please.”
So I don’t walk around on the street with a smile plastered on my face if I don’t feel like it, but at the same time I think you can get too carried away with ‘being true to yourself’ and just end up being selfish. It’s not fake to try and make a friend feel better by smiling and trying to lift their spirits even when you don’t feel like it. It’s not fake to smile at a stranger who asks for directions in order to make them feel like they’re not a complete waste of your time. If you’ve been invited to a dinner party or something, are you going to walk around with a scowl on your face just to let people know how you’re really feeling? The people you interact with are therefore influenced by your mood, and go home feeling a bit worse, and you’re thinking “I feel good about myself. I was honest about my feelings.” Well, good on ya. W00t.

Saying that Delta types are fake when they don’t represent their true emotions is arrogant and closeminded. Being diplomatic is a decision to put your own feelings aside for the benefit of the other person. It’s not pretending that you’re feeling a certain way. It’s seeing that you have a chance to influence someone for the better, and being unselfish enough to ignore yourself while you’re interacting with them. There’s a time and place to get your feelings ‘OUT THERE’ – sure - but you should realise it’s not always about you.

+100000

now we're talking! you've said it beautifully! that's the perfect balance to me.

[Rubicon]

Gilly brought up a great and very important point in a stickam convo on Friday evening (early hours of Saturday morning for me), and since it hasn't yet been brought up on the forum, I am going to do so. Basically, Fe ego types - particularly Fe base types - have I think been experiencing a horrid level of bitterness for the completely wrong reasons. People normally associate Fe with manipulation, bitchiness and fakeness; acting ingenuinely. Well, I'm sure many Fe ego types have been offended by this, for the simple fact that they don't act any more fake than anyone else does. In fact, Fe is misunderstood. What Fe is about is not just manipulating others emotionally; it's about using one's own internal emotional state to generate an emotional response from others.

How is that not being manipulative?

[Mea]

-_- Fe may not be fake to people who value it. i think it's a matter of perception.
Some Fe dominants still appear very fake to me.

I agree with Chopin. (above post) Many people are manipulative, just perhaps in different ways.

[Rubicon]

-_- Fe may not be fake to people who value it. i think it's a matter of perception.
Some Fe dominants still appear very fake to me.

I don't think it's about perception. If you perceive a person to be fake, it doesn't mean they are. It could be that you just read them wrong. The person is either being genuine or they're not.

[Mea]

I don't think it's about perception. If you perceive a person to be fake, it doesn't mean they are. It could be that you just read them wrong. The person is either being genuine or they're not.

yes then maybe i read them wrong. lol. because i find them excessive and fake, it's what i see, i don't care if i'm wrong if dislike being around that person.
they may not be fake, but some are fake to me. lol
like being overly friendly the first time i meet them? then again, when i said "overly friendly", it's my perception, you may think the person is just being warm and welcoming.

[Rubicon]

yes then maybe i read them wrong. lol. because i find them excessive and fake, it's what i see, i don't care if i'm wrong if dislike being around that person.
they may not be fake, but some are fake to me. lol
like being overly friendly the first time i meet them? then again, when i said "overly friendly", it's my perception, you may think the person is just being warm and welcoming.

Would it still bother you if you knew for certain that the person's feelings were utterly genuine? Or is it just effusiveness of feeling in general that you dislike being around ...

[dbmmama]

yes then maybe i read them wrong. lol. because i find them excessive and fake, it's what i see, i don't care if i'm wrong if dislike being around that person.
they may not be fake, but some are fake to me. lol
like being overly friendly the first time i meet them? then again, when i said "overly friendly", it's my perception, you may think the person is just being warm and welcoming.

i don't like over friendly when i first meet a person either. what does bother me is when the person has absolutely no regard for how the other person may take their energy. when i first meet someone irl, i slightly control my Fe to help the other be comfortable with me. and then as i feel them out and get what they are about, i let my own stuff come out more and more. i care more about their vibe and allowing that than i do my own.

i especially hate it when someone comes up to my baby in my arms and gets in her face and says "HI BABY, YOU ARE SO BEAUTIFUL. AHHH, LOOK AT YOUR BEAUTIFUL EYES!" I know you are excited about my beautiful baby, but do you care enough to even think that my baby might be the kind that that would freak out?

i get the gist of someone, baby or kid or adult, irl mostly, right away and then i know what they are able to "handle" as far as me expressing my energy is concerned. that's respect, to me.

[Expat]

As far as the way Te/Fi types see Fe as superficial, so what? Fe is to Gamma/Delta as Te is to Alpha/Beta. Fe/Ti types can (and often do) think of Te as superficial. There's no reason to whine about people valuing their own quadra values in a place like this.

Yes.

I see as fake when...

you walk into a store and some store employee is there at the door to greet you with a big fake smile plastered over there face. they say "hello" with such vibrant enthusiasm it makes you want to cringe. they ask you how your day was and what your plans are for later (what do they care? they don't even know you and it's none of their business). all the while the fake smile and over-the-top enthusiasm hangs over them like a toxic mist, and all you want to do is get away from them as quickly as possible. (I know they're paid to do that, so it's not so much them I take issue with but with whatever stupid corporate philosophy requires this charade of insincere behavior.)

It's one of the things that make me type, for instance, Tony Blair as LIE rather than EIE, as is sometimes suggested. In my experience, true Fe-ego types react to his "call me Tony" and huge-grin personality precisely the way you describe. It's a LIE faking for political purposes, not true which is what you get from Barack Obama, for instance.

[cracka]

in and of itself is not fake. But there can be fake displays of it. And true displays of it can be interpretted as fake.

I think this is pretty true. For the most part, it's another sort of stereotype that some use to identify functions in people. The bad part of the "Socionics" crowd, here and in other places, is the fact that sooooo many people use stereotypes in their typings that if they see someone using Fe in any way, then: "oh, that person is using Fe and it's making me sick, I don't like them, they're fake." blah.

Edit: Then again, the same can be said about every function at some point by people of different types... So I guess I didn't even need to write that out...lol.

[Sirena]

I see as fake when...

when someone who doesn't even really know you that well tells you to "smile" or encourages you to participate or enjoy something, as though it is a requirement. If they actually cared so much about you "enjoying yourself" then they would just let you be. You are in the mood you are in and if you're being sincere, then you're only reflecting that mood. Asking you to change your mood to one that better pleases them (not you) is asking you to garner a facade of fake behavior yourself - not to mention prying into your private feelings as if they belong to everyone.

I couldn't agree with you more!!! This is something that I have struggled with my whole life with my family. Their expectation of me to always act a certain way has always created resentment, not to mention guilt for believing that I must be the one in the wrong since everyone else seems to agree. My family is full of extroverts though (not sure if this may have something to do with it). Being with friends is easier because we accept one another's current mood without this judgment or expectation. Because of how I grew up, this continues to be a source of guilt for me as an adult. I have gotten better at not caring, but I continue to have a difficult time just being who I am and feeling comfortable with it without much concern to how others would perceive this (but I guess anything different would be against my Fe nature). I realize I've digressed from the original topic. I just felt like sharing how much this resonated with me.

[dbmmama]

OMG! So THATs why I find it so creepy being around street performers, salesmen, carnies, clowns, "Santas," "Easter Bunnies," and all those old people in church who wanted to pinch my cheeks. :< I remember avoiding all the Mickey Mouses and whatnot at Disneyworld as a child while Mom kept going, "Don't you want to get your picture taken?" No, Mom, I did not! ^_^

+1000

that's why i found it extremely important to "be there" for my kids to "protect" them from that kind of energy as well then allowing them the room to "be their own energy" without others "getting in their way."