What is Gamma introverted feeling Fi like?

[Ezra]

This is something I've recently thought about. I realised that I don't really understand how it works when it's blocked with Se, such a harsh function by comparison.

How does it work?

[Joy]

strong + wise about people

[hellothere]

maybe see Diana's posts in that "wow, this is crazy" thread about that Austrian incest guy

[FDG]

Given how Fi is blocked with Se, I would say that often the feelings might be more manifested in action rather than purely in words. (I think one of the ESI's descriptions mentions this tendency)

[liveandletlive]

[Expat]

Here's my question... is all Gamma (or all for that matter) harsh, judgmental, and bitchy? What about sympathy, empathy, compassion. I know has to involve those things...

It does, but only to those who deserve it.

Those who deserve it - get loyalty, empathy, compassion.

Those who deserve the opposite - get harshness, bitchiness, eventually punishment and destruction.

[Expat]

Gamma Fi Ego is always mixed with Se, so yeah, it should always come out as more aggressive because it's trying to mobilize you or position you.

This sounds more like a dynamic (ie, Fe) view of it; Fi is static (as is Se by the way). I don't think Fi has anything to do with "mobilization".

The Ne in the Fi Egos of Deltas in my experience is more accepting of all the potential possibilities and not trying to directly cause a change in your actions at the outset.

Okay now I get better what you meant. However, I wouldn't say that even Se is about "change your actions" as such, which, again, seems to me more like a Fe thing. I's more about, uh, "putting you in your place" than "changing your actions".

I'm still convinced that George Clooney, Jennifer Lopez, and Michelle Pfieffer are examples of Gamma Fi (+Se), along with those in the ESI thread. It comes across to me, personally, perhaps when they're Fi sub, as a kind of scooting around the issues and making excuses for people and kind of 'apologizing' for things while emphasizing their own position in the structure over and over.

If I understand what you're saying, you're essentially noticing that they're Fi and not Ti.

With some, this can be annoying. With others, you notice them being very uncomfortable and subtley reactive when people try to challenge their position. But the way they react is like just mentioned, kind of an apologizing for some, restating the positions of others and the positions of themselves. Watch that interview mentioned with Meg Ryan (I think you mentioned it, Ezra) in the ESI thread. Or that one I posted of J-Lo in the J-Lo thread. I think its when they're Se sub, I think, is when it's less annoying to me and it seems more natural; often they seem like they're joking or 'in control' I guess when they react to such remarks, not like they're swatting at it with a limp fly swatter.

Okay you react better to Se+Ti than to Se+Fi.

[Joy]

It does, but only to those who deserve it.

Those who deserve it - get loyalty, empathy, compassion.

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of deservedness as it is closeness. There's a degree of both there though, of course.

Those who deserve the opposite - get harshness, bitchiness, eventually punishment and destruction.

Pretty much.

[Khamelion]

lolololol!

[Khamelion]

More like those who the Fi dominant thinks deserve it - get loyalty, empathy, compassion and those who the Fi dominant thinks deserve the opposite - get harshness, bitchiness, eventually punishment and destruction.

not rly....but i can see how it feels that way.


silly entp's

[liveandletlive]

Hmm.... does this differ between rational and irrational gammas?

---------------

I don't know how one would determine "who deserves it." What if they're wrong and decide someone deserves something they don't deserve? How would you know who deserves what? (I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, or to make a point, it's that I honestly don't know how to determine who would deserve what.) ETA: except in small matters.

Maybe it seems like condemnation... I'm not sure... it's mainly that if someone has been condemned it's like it's permanent. There's no going back... no reconciliation... no chance to make it better...

this is just speaking for me but i'll only be a bitch with my Fi when i KNOW they deserve it otherwise im usually extremely forgiving and understanding... almost to a fault. it can be permanent and it cannot be permanent- it depends on the severity of their actions.

[Blaze]

to answer the question "what does gamma Fi look like?" (this is IMO, from my own understanding of the types):

SEE: confidence in influencing and manipulating others
ESI: being firm and unyielding about their convictions

both of these are in regards to personal and ethical matters, not so much impersonal ones (otherwise they could apply to SLE and LSI respectively also.)

and I agree with suomea too, it's completely subjective. of course maybe the gamma SFs don't see it this way themselves, because they are so convinced that they are right about these types of things. (this would be an example of Fi possibly coming across as close-mindedness, btw.)

thirded. gamma SF's esp ESI it's like they decide about who is deserving of what on the basis of their quadra values. i'm not sure the other quadras approach relationships this way. it's kinda like a gamma SF exclusive.

[Cheesy]

Having an Isfj sister (she's slightly more on the Se side though..) I think that the Se shapes the Fi in Gammas so the differences result from the Se/Ne difference (but you already knew that...)

Se as a secondary function means Ne as a PoLR so that might result in less ability to see people as a whole thus judging them more narrow mindedly. On the other hand, delta NF's might be more willing to forgive people because they see people on their many complexities, have compassion and strive to forgive human faults. The SF's will tend to judge more if someone is inappropriate or crosses the Fi boundaries but the NF will see it as an achievement if it manages to go beyond the typical stereotypes and judgments of people because it wishes to understand their mind.

Though I have to admit that the whole description I just gave is judgmental and stereotypical but this is what the question demands so you'll have to forgive me for that…. And I have to admit that Gamma SF's are generally very nice people. I guess I'm just biased because my sister sucks...

On the positive side, that same Se might drive those types to fight more for the Fi. Not that Delta NF's don't fight but Se as a function is known for it's strong will and endurance thus it will be easier for the Gamma SF's to fight for what they think is right.

[Ezra]

SEE: confidence in influencing and manipulating others
ESI: being firm and unyielding about their convictions

both of these are in regards to personal and ethical matters, not so much impersonal ones (otherwise they could apply to SLE and LSI respectively also.)

Please can you elaborate more on this WRT the SEE's influence and manipulation techniques?

I don't really view Fi as close-mindedness.

I think the idea that Fi is close-minded is closely related to the similar idea that Ti is close-minded. Essentially, these two functions are static and they're primarily concerned with an internal self-mastered worldview, which many could view as narrow-minded and unsympathetic to others. Basically, the Se creative - coupled with Ne PoLR (as Ne creatives have less of a tendency to act in the following way) - is saying "the world is x and it will not change from x because I say so".

Se as a secondary function means Ne as a PoLR so that might result in less ability to see people as a whole thus judging them more narrow mindedly. On the other hand, delta NF's might be more willing to forgive people because they see people on their many complexities, have compassion and strive to forgive human faults. The SF's will tend to judge more if someone is inappropriate or crosses the Fi boundaries but the NF will see it as an achievement if it manages to go beyond the typical stereotypes and judgments of people because it wishes to understand their mind.

Good point.

[Expat]

I think the idea that Fi is close-minded is closely related to the similar idea that Ti is close-minded. Essentially, these two functions are static and they're primarily concerned with an internal self-mastered worldview, which many could view as narrow-minded and unsympathetic to others.

Yeah, pretty much.

Basically, the Se creative - coupled with Ne PoLR (as Ne creatives have less of a tendency to act in the following way) - is saying "the world is x and it will not change from x because I say so".

I don't think it's "because I say so", although it may appear so to others.

[Expat]

I don't know how one would determine "who deserves it." What if they're wrong and decide someone deserves something they don't deserve? How would you know who deserves what?

and I agree with suomea too, it's completely subjective. of course maybe the gamma SFs don't see it this way themselves, because they are so convinced that they are right about these types of things. (this would be an example of Fi possibly coming across as close-mindedness, btw.)

Here's the answer:

this is just speaking for me but i'll only be a bitch with my Fi when i KNOW they deserve it otherwise im usually extremely forgiving and understanding... almost to a fault. it can be permanent and it cannot be permanent- it depends on the severity of their actions.

[marooned]

Watch that interview mentioned with Meg Ryan (I think you mentioned it, Ezra) in the ESI thread.

This one?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1qSvLJlsWh8

from here?

(gone)

[Joy]

(this would be an example of Fi possibly coming across as close-mindedness, btw.)

Gamma Fi is to Beta as Beta Ti is to Gamma.

[Blaze]

well there's definitely a repulsion between the interviewer and meg. but she seems overly defensive and unable to disarm him. interviewer seems like he's making innuendos, though, which could be seen as a challenge.

conflict relation seems likely here. they can't get anywhere really.

[Blaze]

Here's the answer:

huh. the concept of who deserves what is sort of foreign to me. reflective of democracy i spose.

[Blaze]

gamma is a democratic quadra also.


I see gamma FiSe as a willingness to put yourself out there and do almost anything for those close to you. There is certainly action behind sentiment. You'd rather get between a mama bear and her cubs than try to hurt anyone I care about. As for judgements, it's not really a matter of who deserves what, as much as what is rightful. For instance, just because someone is a real creep doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to them or that it is the best solution.

When ENFps here and I have disagreed and gotten into Fi kind of arguments it's been largely because from my view they're not thinking clearly, they're too emotional and not seeing the real or long-term consequences of their proposed solution, and they make simple things complex, and I believe from their perspective I'm not giving enough leeway to people, not merciful enough, or not taking enough sides of the story into account.

yeah i didn't remember that gamma is democratic. and i respect that you would go to bat for anybody that you care about. ESI's don't usually care about ILE's though??!! lol then again your ex is an ILE, and you step up for him so maybe i'm wrong.

@Loki: yeah i agree with what you are saying. i focused on the meg side of it you're focusing on the interviewer side of it. they both have responsibility.

but meg is so....stilted or something. i mean she's talking about this great great movie, In the Cut, right? if it were me in the interview i'd just totally take that guy on you know? i'm just saying she can't really handle him. but he's not drawing her out very well at all, either.

like i say, CONFLICT RELATION!!! lol

[Blaze]

do you think he's Alpha NT? I thought ESE might also work... I can't tell.

yeah i think he's ILE. those questions of his are soooo anti-Fi!

[liveandletlive]

huh. the concept of who deserves what is sort of foreign to me. reflective of democracy i spose.

who deserves what has to do with how they went against my morals to what extent, what they did, etc.,. basically how "wrong" their hurtful behavior was.

[crazedrat]

This one?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1qSvLJlsWh8

from here?

In that video I didn't find Meg Ryan irritating, but I found the interviewer a little irritating...

Then I said this about it:

Good example of LII & ESI superego relation..

[crazedrat]

gamma Fi is also expressed differently between the rationals and the irrationals. w/ the irrationals it is more adaptive & in the moment.. if something brings it into conflict, this can be more easily negated & deemed irrelevent / forgotten. With ESI.. once they are in the Fi confliction mode it is kind of like a mental lockdown occurs.

[discojoe]

Gamma Fi is me hunting you down and destroying you if you've done something bad.

[Blaze]

i didnt' watch the whole clip but for the questions he was askingthat i saw, i kinda thought he was trying to imply something negative, to try to get her to react. and she did react a little defensively....i'd have called him out. geez what are ya trying to say, dude, exactly? with a big laugh to go with it.

but he's basically trying to make her uncomfortable, push the boundaries, which seems to me to be anti-Fi.

[Ms. Kensington]

there is a reason why SeFi is called "the politician/ambassador"

I think that, with leading Se, SEEs like to be challenged, and like to be the leader. they will be resolute and straightforward; they're not the kind to be shy about taking action. they don't have a problem using their influence to get things done. all of this sounds applicable to SLEs too, but the difference is in that SEEs are more interested in using this willpower of theirs in regards to people. they are extremely aware of how people are feeling, and of what others want. they know how to talk to people, a word I constantly see in SEE descriptions is "diplomatic." they value and are confident in the personal influence that they have over others.

hm.. they don't know how to talk to everyone ie, conflictor. With ESFps with creative Fi, I think they get frustrated that I resist manipulation in that area (personal bonds, what is right to them at that moment applying to everyone). It's the only thing that really upsets me, as I am able to understand more about deficiency with Se because I know (by socionics and my own observation) that i really do not have as much force as the average person in terms of pushing for myself. With ISFjs I think i conflict more with their Se than Fi. Their Fi is their own, and they judge by it (imo). they dont really try to get you to believe something, they measure you up and reject you if you dont fit. Over time, if their morals change then they might accept you. The ISFj in my life has become less hostile to me over time. I even would say that I feel more affection for her as well. This is how my relations in real life have turned out anyway.

I dont really think in terms of gamma fi and delta fi, but yes i do think that gamma fi is demonstrated by force and sharpness and reactivity, while a delta would express it more solitariliy (dont know if that's a word but you know).

Edit: some examples might be in order. I think about SEE as smashing glasses to the floor, or making really sarcastic remarks and slamming doors, something visible. They could also be very solemn. ESI i see as being very caustic with remarks, or very sarcastic. LIE responds to moral criticism, and they criticize but without force. However, i think ExTj both are the only types that I see in a RAGE at work. hahaha. They can throw chairs around too.. but thats not exclusive of their type. They also seem to do things for those they care about. ILI.. hm. maybe caustic remarks with them too.. but i don't really know.

Hm now that I think about it, yes, Fi is expressed with either rage or with a very solemn, quiet tone in my experience. like a rage, or a deep disappointment and judgment.

also, i really agree with this: "they value and are confident in the personal influence that they have over others." so this would also be something like demonstrating fi and their se by influencing or gaining a cohort. some ISFj-Se i also see with this trait, but overall it's as i described above ime.

[Ezra]

yes exactly, which is why I had said earlier:

I did read that, I just wanted to make it clear to others.

there is a reason why SeFi is called "the politician/ambassador"

I think that, with leading Se, SEEs like to be challenged, and like to be the leader. they will be resolute and straightforward; they're not the kind to be shy about taking action. they don't have a problem using their influence to get things done. all of this sounds applicable to SLEs too, but the difference is in that SEEs are more interested in using this willpower of theirs in regards to people. they are extremely aware of how people are feeling, and of what others want. they know how to talk to people, a word I constantly see in SEE descriptions is "diplomatic." they value and are confident in the personal influence that they have over others.

So if I were to become a politician, and I used a strategy to get them on my side because I knew how they thought about certain policies (e.g. "these weak minded, dependent people feed off a capitalistic machine which, if I utilise to my advantage, can make them love me, and hence receive more votes and therefore get in power), what is this? SLE or SEE? Also, if it's not SLE why isn't it? Same with SEE - if it isn't that, why is it SLE?

[Expat]

So if I were to become a politician, and I used a strategy to get them on my side because I knew how they thought about certain policies (e.g. "these weak minded, dependent people feed off a capitalistic machine which, if I utilise to my advantage, can make them love me, and hence receive more votes and therefore get in power), what is this? SLE or SEE? Also, if it's not SLE why isn't it? Same with SEE - if it isn't that, why is it SLE?

The way you're phrasing it, as far as it goes, it seems like in a way that could be applied to both.

[Ezra]

The might do the same thing, on the surface, if he thinks he may want to enlist you into his service again at some point. And it many ways it may accomplish the same ends; they may both be successful in such political venues. But with the its more like striking a deal than setting up an understood ethical role. Because of the lack of initiative it will have both good and bad effect on the SLE's doings. If someone is setting up such an ethical bond under his nose, the SLE will react to such with ignorance, and again not care about the rebellion, viewing those who do as ignorant or illogical and the rebellion as easily surmountable. In the end he may wonder why people don't like him on an ethical level, even if they do what he says.

Incredible. How me.

[UDP]

Gamma Fi looks like this:

+
+

It does, but only to those who deserve it.

Those who deserve it - get loyalty, empathy, compassion.

Those who deserve the opposite - get harshness, bitchiness, eventually punishment and destruction.

Gamma Fi is me hunting you down and destroying you if you've done something bad.

I am reminded of gamma's quadra role of "cutting out" things of society that are obsolete, harmful, or bad, etc.

This might not be common socionics, but, if we look at the quadras as a series of development from alpha to beta to gamma to delta, I definitely think the gamma harshness and the "switch" from valuing Te/Fi that arises after the first two quadras makes sense. With Se>Si to cut people out, there is a rigorousness to gamma's Se+Fi blocking structure makes a lot of sense.

Gammas may have a sense of "it being up to them" to cut out the bad stuff form society, in a general way. Descriptions talk about how INTps have to cut out terrible ideas, even if they are against popular opinion (against Fe, for example).

Also, I think Joy's oft-quoted Rocky clip is fitting example for gamma Fi.

[Ms. Kensington]

I was just thinking of this because I realized I know an SLE and an SEE who are very similar. Perhaps they're both subs. Both are kind of...forward... The difference is that the seems to have this definitive care about these roles he is expected to fulfill, where truly the , quote, "doesn't give a shit." If there's nothing in it for him, and he doesn't feel like it, he won't do it, or he'll delegate it to someone else.

But the values that opportunity to enter people's hearts, even if, on the surface, there's nothing in it for him. And if he doesn't end up doing it he has an almost compulsive need to make up for it by pulling you aside in an almost secretive way and explaining in a manner that connotes confidentiality, at length, why he really cares about you (if he does) but because of this reason and that reason he didn't fulfill that particular role at the time. He goes on for a very long time about this, if you don't seem to be providing enough affirmation in this area I suppose, and it is quite tiring, lol.

The might do the same thing, on the surface, if he thinks he may want to enlist you into his service again at some point. And it many ways it may accomplish the same ends; they may both be successful in such political venues. But with the its more like striking a deal than setting up an understood ethical role. Because of the lack of initiative it will have both good and bad effect on the SLE's doings. If someone is setting up such an ethical bond under his nose, the SLE will react to such with ignorance, and again not care about the rebellion, viewing those who do as ignorant or illogical and the rebellion as easily surmountable. In the end he may wonder why people don't like him on an ethical level, even if they do what he says.

The 's ploys aren't foolhardy either. This seemed to be always trying to get me to say, "You care about me. I care about you. You protect me. I protect you," just because he offered so much...whatever it was he was offering. I guess I just don't see it that way; I probably just see his vying to make an ethical pact with me as a given, not as a shining gem from which I must make a lasting pact. I would be more interested if I felt like he got to know me better than if he tried to convince me of how close we really are. Rather, he was always talking about who did what to him and to his friends and to me to convince me of what my relationship to him was or should be. All things that, unfortunately for him, don't enlist my loyalties. I was just listening and listening and like, "Okay, I'm sorry they might have done that. Maybe they were good-intentioned. ." Lol, there's me -ing.

yeah

[Ezra]

Gamma Fi looks like this:

+
+

l0lZzZzZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[Joy]

Have you seen any of the Rocky movies Ezra?

[Expat]

This might not be common socionics, but, if we look at the quadras as a series of development from alpha to beta to gamma to delta, I definitely think the gamma harshness and the "switch" from valuing Te/Fi that arises after the first two quadras makes sense. With Se>Si to cut people out, there is a rigorousness to gamma's Se+Fi blocking structure makes a lot of sense.

Gammas may have a sense of "it being up to them" to cut out the bad stuff form society, in a general way. Descriptions talk about how INTps have to cut out terrible ideas, even if they are against popular opinion (against Fe, for example).

I think you're spot on. Gammas are often in the role of being "reactionaries" or "conservative", which is a false interpretation of Gamma's motives. They do not block new ideas, or change, or even revolution, as such; only those they see as nonsensical or evil. And yes, it is "up to them" because it is the Betas who are promoting the ideas, the Alphas who probably thought of them in the first place, and the Deltas thinking that everything will be okay if everybody discusses the new ideas together.

[Joy]

Right, it's not at all about new vs. old or change vs. stagnation. Focusing on that stuff at all just misses the point (from a Gamma perspective).

[Expat]

Right, it's not at all about new vs. old or change vs. stagnation. Focusing on that stuff at all just misses the point (from a Gamma perspective).

The thing is, those who are promoting the ideas are so persuaded of their being right that "only people who are against any change" would oppose them.

[Joy]

Makes sense. And those who value how things are may think that wanting to it is just wanting change for the sake of change.

[Ezra]

Have you seen any of the Rocky movies Ezra?

You've asked me this before. No, I haven't. And he's an SEE isn't he? Can you think of any other examples of SEEs besides Achilles in Troy, who I believe relies too much on his passions etc. - he should've forgiven Hector and seen it from his point of view.

Right, it's not at all about new vs. old or change vs. stagnation. Focusing on that stuff at all just misses the point (from a Gamma perspective).

What do you think the point is?