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Thread: A few mistakes

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    Default A few mistakes ...

    On this forum, I've come across many misconceptions about ISTjs, such as how their spirituality is under-developed and how they are overbearing, manipulating dumbfucks. I've also read about how ISTjs supposedly manipulate people, can't understand emotion at all, are back-stabbers, and will resolutely defend even an obviously incorrect conclusion. Expat suggested that they brainwash themselves.

    Maybe I'm being a little too touchy here, but I'd just like to correct these misconceptions.

    ISTjs can have developed spirituality and under-developed spirituality. But I will mention that there is such a thing as a spiritually-aware ISTj. I'm one of them. I was raised as a Catholic Christian, broke with this faith when I couldn't see the sense in it (in my early teens, which was really quite young to be thinking about spirituality). I'd mention that I was a strong believer in the Catholic faith before I broke with it. Then, I was an atheist for some time, and now I'm a Buddhist.

    I believe in Buddhism because science supports it. This is empirical and logical - which is showing itself. But the point is that ISTjs aren't spiritually devoid. I'm a firm believer in Buddhism and support it entirely, embracing all religions.

    ISTjs can be overbearing, manipulative dumbfucks. But not all of them are. I belive in manners and politeness not to conceal my manipulation and survive, but because it is the right thing to do. Unnecessary conflict is avoided by politeness. I know someone who is insensitive and socially backwards, who thinks that it's cool to be rude and say "Fuck off" casually. He is bullied because of this attitude. By being polite, his entire quality of life would be improved a hundredfold. Except that he won't listen.

    ISTjs can be sensitive and considerate, and polite because of that. It would hurt me too much to bully someone - there would be no negative emotion to fuel me. I'm too self-controlled to get carried away with anger. In fact, one of the only things that'll get me angry is someone bullying me, or being inconsiderate. I think that, like most introverts, I can choose to become aggressive by turning upset into hate and rage. But that side of me has only rarely come out, less than ten times in my entire life.

    ISTjs can, therefore understand emotion. They probably don't understand it well, but they do understand it. So, when you are making ridiculous hypotheses about why an ISTj is polite because he can't feel emotion, ask an ISTj for his opinion.

    I will agree that ISTjs defend obviously incorrect viewpoints, but the way you talk about this quality makes it seem incredibly negative and bigoted. This isn't true. I don't brainwash myself. If I believe in something, it is because it is a logical and valid viewpoint, NOT because I want to. I defend myself with logic, not being a prick. I can see and empathise with other people's emotions and arguments.

    ISTjs can be some of the nicest people that you can meet. Very few people are patient, genuinely polite, and will keep their word.

    I apologise for this long post and any anger in it, but I'm somewhat insulted that you assume these things about ISTjs that are in no way representative of ISTjs as a whole. Before making these conclusions, please consult actual ISTjs, and exercise some common sense.

    Five

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    Nice post.

    I don't remember where people said these things, but I don't think I've ever said that ISTjs aren't "spritual", or that they're "manipulaitve" myself (actually, I think I've said the opposite.).
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Default Re: A few mistakes ...

    It is indeed a nice post, but I'd like to make some comments - -

    First, I agree with Five on the spirituality, manipulation, overbearing and politeness points. I certainly see no reason to regard such attributes as typical of ISTjs.

    On these points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    are back-stabbers, and will resolutely defend even an obviously incorrect conclusion. Expat suggested that they brainwash themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    ISTjs can be overbearing, manipulative dumbfucks. But not all of them are
    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    I will agree that ISTjs defend obviously incorrect viewpoints, but the way you talk about this quality makes it seem incredibly negative and bigoted. This isn't true. I don't brainwash myself. If I believe in something, it is because it is a logical and valid viewpoint, NOT because I want to. I defend myself with logic, not being a prick. I can see and empathise with other people's emotions and arguments
    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Before making these conclusions, please consult actual ISTjs, and exercise some common sense.
    I think you're missing some points.

    It is of course of little use to "consult" actual ISTjs on whether, for instance, they brainwash themselves or not. I said that - an exaggeration to illustrate a point - based on my experiences with actual ISTjs, including one of my closest friends and a former boss. This is my perception/judgement of ISTjs as an ENTj. Of course an ISTj will not have a self-perception of brainwashing themselves.

    Likewise, some types may see ENTjs as windbag jerks that like to show off their knowledge with the intention of making others feel stupid, or that they enjoy having discussions on unimportant subjects just because they like to start arguments and fights rather than enjoy an harmonious atmosphere.

    That is of course not how I see my behavior or motivations, but I do understand that others - like, say, ISFps - might perceive me that way.

    And it is useless for me to say that those are "misconceptions", since they may well have a point from where they're standing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    If I believe in something, it is because it is a logical and valid viewpoint, NOT because I want to. I defend myself with logic, not being a prick
    Yes, but it is logical unsupported by . By that I mean that ISTjs are uncomfortable with uncertainty and alternative viewpoints - they want to reach a conclusion and then work with it without reviewing it too much. So, once they have reached a conclusion - however logical their reasoning was - they are reluctant to keep it open to new evidence that may challenge it.

    Their inclination is to brush aside new information that will contradict their views, and adopt new information that will confirm them. Since ISTjs are indeed logical, they will eventually yield to concrete, factual evidence that contradicts their views - but only reluctantly and at the cost of great stress. I have observed this, several times. That is why is their PoLR, and "to believe", their hidden agenda.

    The problem is when it is difficult to assemble concrete, factual evidence. Thus, if, at one point in their life, some ISTjs have concluded that, for instance, "normal" people act in a certain way, or, for instance, that "people who don't keep their desks tidy can't be trusted to do anything properly", there is no power on Earth that will persuade them that this is rubbish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    ISTjs can be overbearing, manipulative dumbfucks. But not all of them are
    Of course not all of them, that is not characteristic of ISTjs as such.

    However, my ISTj boss was just about the most two-faced person I have ever met. He used to say to me, in a very patronizing way, "nobody is honest" and that, therefore, the "normal" thing was to be two-faced. That is a manifestation of the phenomenon I described above.

    It all depends on which kind of conclusions they have reached as to what "normal" people do.

    Again, my conclusions are based not only on my theoretical understanding of ISTj functions but also on my experiences with real ISTjs.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Some valid points, Expat - what I was getting at in my original post is how you seem to generalise them onto all ISTjs.

    You also say "there is no power on Earth that will persuade them that this is rubbish". I believe that the fixation of ISTjs on particular conclusions is over-estimated on this forum.

    Will people please keep an open mind about ISTjs? They CAN be two-faced, but would you expect someone who has Se in one of their first two functions to be lovey-dovey and incredibly timid? Of course not.

    I think that the variety of ISTjs evident is quite large - they range from extremely negative (two-faced, fixated, manipulative) to the extremely positive (honourable, modest, steadfast, polite). But people seem to take the negative version of ISTjs to be the 'correct' version. THAT is what angers me so much - this is unfair treatment of ISTjs that is completely against the spirit of Socionics.

    People seem to view ISTjs as twats because they're so inflexible and stand-offish. They don't, for one moment, consider that an ISTj is like that not because he chooses, but because his functions are structured that way. An elderly person may lose their memory, but we don't (or shouldn't) patronise them for this - they can't help it, it's a natural part of ageing.

    I want people to view ISTjs with balance, common sense and acceptance. People at this moment are viewing only the negative side of ISTjs without consideration for the better qualities of ISTjs. ISTjs are people with emotions, weaknesses and strengths, NOT robotic pricks that many posters belive and make them out to be.

    Five

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    NOT robotic pricks that many posters belive and make them out to be
    OH yes they are! Just kidding I know several istjs and I like them quite a bit. I find them polite, hardworking and thorough. If it were not for istjs a lot of important jobs would not get done nor would we have their sober input. Its true that istjs reveal to me some of my weaknesses but thats my problem to fix. I dont invalidate what they have to say because it wont make me look good. (Ok sometimes I do :wink: ) But its true for all types, they look different in real life than they do on paper...ehm computer.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Some valid points, Expat - what I was getting at in my original post is how you seem to generalise them onto all ISTjs.

    You also say "there is no power on Earth that will persuade them that this is rubbish". I believe that the fixation of ISTjs on particular conclusions is over-estimated on this forum.
    In as far as it makes sense to generalize such characteristics - like "ESTps have a big ego" or "ENTjs are opinionated" etc - I do think it is a charactertistic of ISTjs to be rigid about conclusions they have already reached. My sentence on "no power on Earth" was, again, an exaggeration to make a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Will people please keep an open mind about ISTjs? They CAN be two-faced, but would you expect someone who has Se in one of their first two functions to be lovey-dovey and incredibly timid? Of course not.
    Personally, as I said, I do not think at all that being two-faced is typical of ISTjs; in the case of one particular individual I saw that as a consequence of one of those rigid conclusions about how "normal people" behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    People seem to view ISTjs as twats because they're so inflexible and stand-offish. They don't, for one moment, consider that an ISTj is like that not because he chooses, but because his functions are structured that way.
    I think most people in this forum, who understand something of socionics, will know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    I want people to view ISTjs with balance, common sense and acceptance. People at this moment are viewing only the negative side of ISTjs without consideration for the better qualities of ISTjs. ISTjs are people with emotions, weaknesses and strengths, NOT robotic pricks that many posters belive and make them out to be.
    ISTjs, in general, have many fine qualities, like all types and all individuals. But they are also "robotic pricks". An ISTj is one of my dearest friends, but I would never, ever, want him as my boss. I had an ISTj boss and I don't want ever again to repeat that experience.

    ISTjs are usually very competent in technical fields and their is amazing when dealing with practical, technical problems. They are also very dutiful and reliable once they have made a committment. The two-faces I mentioned was about pretending to respect and like you when they don't, not about not keeping their word. I also like how their strong makes them forceful without being aggressive like ESTps.

    However, as a boss, ISTjs tend to be tyrants oppressing others with an iron fist - simply because they tend to sincerely believe that their way of doing things is the only way, or at least the only way "normal people" do things.

    And, what is worse, an ISTj boss may think that the fact that you don't know how "normal" people behave only makes it worse, so it's not even worth it to mention it to you -- he simply decides you're useless.

    Instead of being so defensive about this, try to understand why is it that others tend to view ISTjs in that way.

    I do realize I am hitting your PoLR.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    I find them polite, hardworking and thorough. If it were not for istjs a lot of important jobs would not get done nor would we have their sober input.
    I agree with that.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I had an ISTj boss and I don't want ever again to repeat that experience.
    HELLO.... Amen to that Expat. Good qualities notwithstanding.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Expat, I can't see how you're hitting my PoLR (could you explain why you said that?). The thing that angers me is how insensitive people are to ISTjs. Although people on this forum do recognise the strengths and good points of ISTjs, the impression I get is that, generally, the first image of an ISTj that comes to their minds is a negative one.

    When I discovered that I was an ISTj, I was a little disappointed because my impression of ISTjs was negative. I acknowledge your argument - what I'm asking for is a more balanced view of ISTjs.

    Perhaps the only reason I'm saying this is because I'm the nice type of ISTj. But I think that all types deserve to be treated fairly, and I sometimes see fair treatment of ISTjs to be lacking and this means that sometimes I don't feel proud to be an ISTj. This is, of course, against the whole spirit of Socionics.

    All I'm asking for is a fairer treatment in the way ISTjs are thought of, and an appreciate of both their negative AND their positive sides.

    Five

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Expat, I can't see how you're hitting my PoLR (could you explain why you said that?). The thing that angers me is how insensitive people are to ISTjs. Although people on this forum do recognise the strengths and good points of ISTjs, the impression I get is that, generally, the first image of an ISTj that comes to their minds is a negative one.

    When I discovered that I was an ISTj, I was a little disappointed because my impression of ISTjs was negative. I acknowledge your argument - what I'm asking for is a more balanced view of ISTjs.

    Perhaps the only reason I'm saying this is because I'm the nice type of ISTj. But I think that all types deserve to be treated fairly, and I sometimes see fair treatment of ISTjs to be lacking and this means that sometimes I don't feel proud to be an ISTj. This is, of course, against the whole spirit of Socionics.

    All I'm asking for is a fairer treatment in the way ISTjs are thought of, and an appreciate of both their negative AND their positive sides.

    Five

    Five, maybe you do not realize that when you keep repeating this, you are behaving exactly the way Expat describes .

    The conclusion you have reached, that is, that people are against ISTjs, is simply factually incorrect. Look at Expat's posts, and you will find at least one good thing metioned for every bad one.


    Speaking for me; the main problem with ISTjs is the lack of self-perception of their behaviour they sometimes manifest. This means that almost all ISTjs ALWAYS think that they are nice people. They do not intend to do harm, they think that their way is simply the best and most fair one. It's like that they cannot hear their own voice. Sometimes, the ISTj might project on you the behavioral traits they don't like in themselves.

    On the other hand, speaking about postive charateristcs:
    They are usually willing to listen when you give a rational argument. You can debate with an ISTJ and he won't get offended by your views. They have got a playful side, which is really distant from the professional aura they have when working, and that can be shocking for people who know only their working side. ISTjs usually love the outdoors, and my dad for example cannot help but going out for at least half an hour, when he comes home from work. ISTjs are usually very principled, and they do their best to control their emotions, in order not to harm anyone.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Welcome to the 16 stereotypes, Five ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Speaking for me; the main problem with ISTjs is the lack of self-perception of their behaviour they sometimes manifest. This means that almost all ISTjs ALWAYS think that they are nice people. They do not intend to do harm, they think that their way is simply the best and most fair one. It's like that they cannot hear their own voice.
    Do you think it is a problem when someone thinks about themselves as being nice? And do you actually know someone that willing to do harm intentionally? And what is wrong with thinking that your way is the best? If you have problems with all of this then you do have problems with people in general because the majority of people will probably fit your ISTj description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Speaking for me; the main problem with ISTjs is the lack of self-perception of their behaviour they sometimes manifest. This means that almost all ISTjs ALWAYS think that they are nice people. They do not intend to do harm, they think that their way is simply the best and most fair one. It's like that they cannot hear their own voice.
    Do you think it is a problem when someone thinks about themselves as being nice?
    When they are not, yes, it's a probelm.

    And do you actually know someone that willing to do harm intentionally? And what is wrong with thinking that your way is the best?
    If it's not the best, it's wrong.

    If you have problems with all of this then you do have problems with people in general because the majority of people will probably fit your ISTj description.
    Not really.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    FDG, are you a nice person that intends others no harm and thinks that the way he does things is the right way to do things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    FDG, are you a nice person that intends others no harm and thinks that the way he does things is the right way to do things?
    I'm not really nice. I intend no harm, I agree.

    No, I don't think there is a right way to do things.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    I'm not really nice.
    No arguments here

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    No, I don't think there is a right way to do things.
    You got me puzzled.

    Do you mean no there is no right way to do things therefore all the ways of doing things are wrong? Or maybe not all the ways are wrong, but then if there is one way that is not wrong then it must be the right way...?????

    or

    Do you mean that the way you do things is not the right way to do things????

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    There are various ways to do things right.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I don't think there is a right way to do things.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    There are various ways to do things right.
    Putana la Madonna, which one is it?

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    The first sentence was meant like "There's not A SINGLE way to do things right"
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Ok fine, but the question was: do you think the way you do things is the right way to do things?

    You say: there are various ways to do things right.

    I say, is YOUR way the right way? The answer I really expect is yes or no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    Ok fine, but the question was: do you think the way you do things is the right way to do things?

    You say: there are various ways to do things right.

    I say, is YOUR way the right way? The answer I really expect is yes or no.
    Mine is ONE OF THE VARIOUS RIGHT WAYS.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    bbbbbbbbbbbooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggg

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    Simple courtesy dictates that you keep on-topic.

    Five

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Expat, I can't see how you're hitting my PoLR (could you explain why you said that?).
    Because I was suggesting that ISTjs are both "robotic pricks" and people with many fine qualities - I also said that although an ISTj is one of my dearest friends, I would never want him as my boss. Your reaction is to insist on droning on about "misconceptions", missing my point - that the negative views of ISTjs are valid from other types' point of view, even as the postitive views are valid from your own, or yet other types'. Or even my own. To be comfortable with this co-existence of valid alternative possibilities is a characteristic of , with which you seem to be uncomfortable - as FDG also pointed out and illustrated further in his posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    The thing that angers me is how insensitive people are to ISTjs. Although people on this forum do recognise the strengths and good points of ISTjs, the impression I get is that, generally, the first image of an ISTj that comes to their minds is a negative one.
    This is perhaps because people tend to be more vocal about what bothers them than what pleases them, and that types that tend to be bothered by ISTj's lack of N tend to be more present in this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Perhaps the only reason I'm saying this is because I'm the nice type of ISTj. But I think that all types deserve to be treated fairly, and I sometimes see fair treatment of ISTjs to be lacking and this means that sometimes I don't feel proud to be an ISTj. This is, of course, against the whole spirit of Socionics.
    I never got the impression that the "spirit of socionics" was about being proud of your type. That is something for each individual to deal with.

    What I do see as the "spirit of socionics" is the understanding of how types' characteristics affect their interpersonal relationships, and that includes accepting that even nice ISTjs will be perceived as "robotic pricks", on occasion, by certain types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    All I'm asking for is a fairer treatment in the way ISTjs are thought of, and an appreciate of both their negative AND their positive sides.
    I tried to provide that in my posts, as FDG also noticed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    .

    I say, is YOUR way the right way? The answer I really expect is yes or no.
    To demand an "yes or no" answer makes no sense if someone does not agree with the basic premise of your question.

    For instance, nobrainer, have you stopped beating up old people and children on the street? Yes or no?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    ISTjs are usually very principled, and they do their best to control their emotions, in order not to harm anyone.
    That is true. An ISTj boss will crush you under his boot but never lose his/her temper or raise the voice while doing it :wink:
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    This is perhaps because people tend to be more vocal about what bothers them than what pleases them, and that types that tend to be bothered by ISTj's lack of N tend to be more present in this forum.
    OK, if this is the explanation for the negative views of ISTjs, I would appreciate it if an awareness of the positive aspects of ISTjs was held.

    The 'spirit of Socionics' referred to the idea of all types being complementary, neither one nor the other better than the other, with strengths and weaknesses, good points and bad points.

    I think we've deviated from the focus of my original post, which was that, in general, I got a negative impression of ISTjs from these forums (due to behaviours that were not representative of ISTjs as a whole that were taken as such by forum members) and that ISTjs were misunderstood with respect to spirituality, manipulation, overbearing and politeness.

    The debate that we've had recently is about a relatively finer point that misses what I'm trying to say.

    Five

  28. #28
    Creepy-pokeball

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    I agree with Five. Some of the things Ive seen on type forums have been extremely offensive and quite honestly--whiney. SJ's get hacked to pieces. Fe and sometimes Fi gets hacked as well. It gets soooo old and it brings out my defensive nature which I find tiring. I really expected more from some intelligent enough to know better now that I think back about it. N elitism is so silly =p This is probably why the private INTJ (MBTI) forum I belong to is my absolute favorite. The comfort level with each other and passage of idea is so nice.


    Moral: Seriously! quit taking past biases out on type or I'm going to start sending anyone that does a box of tissues.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    .

    I say, is YOUR way the right way? The answer I really expect is yes or no.
    To demand an "yes or no" answer makes no sense if someone does not agree with the basic premise of your question.

    For instance, nobrainer, have you stopped beating up old people and children on the street? Yes or no?
    No, why?

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Simple courtesy dictates that you keep on-topic.

    Five
    this is one of the things ISTjs do that irritate people. probably coz it sounds prissy. and because it is perfectly correct and logical, they don't tend to understand why people are irritated.

    my mother is ISTj. i am INTj. she doesn't understand me, and i'm often irritated by the way her ISTj tendencies manifest in a strong need to manipulate my life choices, all the while thinking she's balancing reining in/letting go well, overall. my dad, who is probably intuitive, also sometimes tries to trick me into learning/doing things that are useful to me, but he lets me make key life decisions on my own, and he always admits that he is tricking me.

    that said, i love my mother. she's practical and loyal despite our differences.

    another annoying trait is when they form an opinion that is logical but incorrect. a lot of incorrect things can be argued for logically, but they aren't true. to take a light-hearted example, you can argue that snow goes away because fish took them away using logic, but it isn't true. for the logic to be valid, it has to tie with real natural laws and systems.

    to use a greatly simplified example, typically, an intuitive in a 2D world, upon being presented with the theory of 3D, will think "I cannot decide whether this theory is true or not in my 2D framework, i must acquire a 3D framework". i find ISTjs (and maybe ISFjs?) tend to evaluate first, whether there could be a 3D framework, from their 2D framework. they don't see it necessary to change their thinking framework first, and so this leads to all kinds of disagreement with intuitive types.

    i think that ISTjs who don't succumb to the major weaknesses of their type are delightful. they are attentive and caring, and their attention to detail manifests wonderfully in an impressive memory for everything that you are. they are also loyal and protective. i was very surprised when i fell for one of them.

    probably ISTjs get a lot of flak here because of an over-representation of intuitives, specifically NTs. i'm thinking they're (we're) the sort who would be most irritated by ISTjs.

  31. #31

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    Would Jadae quickly say something positive about ISTjs?

    there must be many more positive things about them than has already been mentioned.


    Well Jadae?

  32. #32
    Creepy-pokeball

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    Would Guest log in?

  33. #33
    Creepy-pokeball

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    Dependability. Safety. An objective ear on which to lean on when the world is mad--but most of all, another human being that deserves to be treated without type predjudice.

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