LSE-EIE superego relationship (ESTj & ENFj)

[07490]

HI, I want to understand the ENFj-ESTj realationship a little bit better, I know there are 1,000 kind of ENFjs depending on their mood, and if I am not wrong I think ESTj are usually very consistent with their behavior. Specificly, how does an ESTj view an ENFj-Ni type? I work with an ESTj Boss, and she seems very different, in many ways to other people. I really see she tries to get along with me and I do too with her, and there is this warm feeling towards each other. But I just dont understand this type the (ESTJ). If the ESTj can give me how they look at the ENFj-Ni suptype as the subtype ENFj-ni is pretty acurate description of me.

[idolatrie]

It is very difficult to just write what I think about an entire type, because well, it's individual people you interact with, and they're all so different. I have a very close friend who is ENFj (though probably Fe subtype) and I think she's one of the loveliest people I know. She's very caring and sincere about her concern for all her friends, which I admire. She's just genuine and humble and basically one of the best people I know. But that's all about her, who she specifically is.

Maybe this might work better if you had some examples of what you think makes your ESTj boss seem so different? Was there something s/he did that you found particularly strange that we may be able to try to explain from an ESTj point of view?

Or you could post about some things specifically that you do which you would like an ESTj perspective/opinion on?

[crazedrat]

Wondering if any of you LSEs in here can tell me how you get on with EIEs. my bro in law is married to my sis, EIE, and their marriage is really rocky nowdays. Tell me your thoughts

[Topaz]

Ive seen that coupling before. Can you say "Power Struggle". They are going to have to come to appreciate each others differences and make allowances for them. Regardless, its not likely that a third, outside party is going to be able to do much about what happens. I wouldn't take sides. I'd let them solve their own problems as difficult as that may be. Activity is not as bad as conflict. My sister is married to her conflicter and even though they've had some rough patches they are still together. I dont know if that helps.

[UDP]

The attempts at provocation (as it would seem to me) would piss me off, and I'd be tired of her wanting to "force her" to see the truth. It's a lot easier to stay with one of them if they are pretty and like certain things that you do, so consider how much the attraction is affecting things.

Are they staying together for sex? What is the main reason they are together? Kids, money, tradition...?


What's nice is that EIEs help a lot with pleasantries and "people" things, but they just don't seem like someone I could much relax around. They take my lack of emotional involvement as "wondering whether or not they really like me".

I get along better with EIEs if I know they are really set on some sort of ethical principle or vision - at least that sort of lets me know where they stand. But also they can seem like major show offs or constantly wanting to kiss ass or have their own be kissed.

They can be great to work with, but I'm pretty sure I'd only spend a lot of extra time with one if she was morally aligned with me, and probably attraction. Staying with someone for attraction is actually bad news for any sort of real relationship, imo+ime.

My want for results seems to upset their more flashy approach. But when we are unified on something, it's not so bad. Not really people I enjoy "hanging out with". Esp, when they are really feeling like they need to dictate or affect my mood.

[implied]

i get the idea it would be a rather freezing cold pairing.

[Joy]

That sounds like the worst possible super ego combination.

[Christy B]

That sounds like the worst possible super ego combination.

lol yes it does!

[Ritella]

That sounds like the worst possible super ego combination.

Yes, probably in terms of scaring off people _around_ them, rather than each other.

[crazedrat]

Well, they are staying together for their 2 year old kid I believe. He (the LSE) and my sister (the EIE) have recently bought a house, despite having no jobs and no money. They did this by getting my uncle to cosign on the lease. The LSI promised my uncle he would get a job. My sister does these things.. oversteps the boundaries of social reality; wants everything; manipulates her way into getting it. He is also, I think, staying with her because he has nowhere to go. He doesn't have a family that helps him out. She kind of trapped him into getting married, in a strange way. She is very emotionally clingy and needy. He won't get a job and they are having to borrow money from my grandparents, which has bankrupt my grandparents. It seems like the more she tries to make him get a job, the less he will comply. Also, they get into raging fights often. He attempts to cheat on her (but somehow gets caught again and again... because she reads his cell phone) .
Right now he is working night shift at McDonalds. ..He started it 3 days ago, it will likely end in about 2 days. I am sure he is working on some kind of "happening" which will result in this jobs abrupt end.
I just find LSEs perspective interesting in this situation.
If it wasnt fucking up my entire families financial situation i wouldn't give a shit.
Anyway .. thanks for the input .

[Joy]

They should split up.

[crazedrat]

too bad i dont have a magic wand

[Joy]

Here, you can borrow mine.

[Joy]

Do they really think that it's best for their daughter to grow up thinking that relationships are about screaming and fighting and being miserable?

[crazedrat]

they have a self oriented mode of thinking. they are not really caring about the daughter. she is furniture.

[Joy]

I can imagine. God, what I horrible pairing.

[unefille]

they have a self oriented mode of thinking. they are not really caring about the daughter. she is furniture.

That's a very harsh judgement to make. You can not know exactly how they think about their daughter (unless one of them said: "Look dude, she's just furniture", in which case I withdraw what I'm saying). You can only extrapolate from their behaviours what you might think/feel if you behaved like them.

[Joy]

That was a very IEE thing to say.

[unefille]

Yeah, now I just have to practice what I preach. It's the voice of my 'good angel'.

[Joy]

I understand. I've generally been a better coach than player myself.

[crazedrat]

That's a very harsh judgement to make. You can not know exactly how they think about their daughter (unless one of them said: "Look dude, she's just furniture", in which case I withdraw what I'm saying). You can only extrapolate from their behaviours what you might think/feel if you behaved like them.

it does not matter if they care about their daughter inside their minds. if she is treated like furniture, then to reality she essentially is furniture. really wishing you could save the rainforest doesn't save the rainforest. k?
more then that, often times people will feel guilt about something for the sole purpose of enabling themselves to continue their behavior.

k, here's an example. when we were growing up our family was very emotionally dead. well, i'm not going to tell you about that, but i will tell you about our dog. no one played with the dog, everyone was too busy coping with their own shit to give the dog any attention. it was always ... "go away, go lay down". the dog would spend weeks alone. now, every now and then my sister and i would talk about how we felt sorry for the dog. how we all wished things were different for the dog. what do you think we did this for? we felt guilty for neglecting the dog, and we wanted to deal with this feeling ~without actually having to go play with the dog~. k? do you get it? all we had to do, was go play with the damn dog, and keep playing with it. but we really didn't want to. hence, we did not give a shit about the dog - it was furniture - and what we cared about was our guilt. if we made the guilt go away through talking about it, then we could continue for a while longer not giving a shit.
its the same thing with kids
but you being EIE... im sure this is lost to you. i've seen EIEs ability to kiss their consciences ass first hand. it's really impressive.
you can fuck off now.

[unefille]

it does not matter if they care about their daughter inside their minds. if she is treated like furniture, then to reality she essentially is furniture. really wishing you could save the rainforest doesn't save the rainforest. k?
more then that, often times people will feel guilt about something for the sole purpose of enabling themselves to continue their behavior.

Point me to where I said: if they feel bad about it, it's Ok. While you're at it, point me to where I wrote: both of them are clearly healthy people behaving in a blameless way.

Of course it's not Ok to mistreat someone on the basis that you feel bad about mistreating them. How you feel doesn't change the quality of the actions that you take. And since it's your family, I take your word for them behaving badly.

But I was pointing out that when you take objective actions and subscribe to them subjective motivations, you're making a very dangerous move. The internal life of any family is very difficult to gauge. And in making that judgement, you're making a lot of assumptions about human nature, on which, given your posts here, I'm not sure you have a very clear grip.

My post was very simple, but I'll try explaining it again. People for whatever reason do crappy things that fuck up the people around them. Feeling bad doesn't justify those actions. But sometimes, in making a judgement about someone's behaviour, intent is also relevant. Particularly in a family where the bonds that tie people together are not solely based on how they act toward each other, but also how they feel toward each other. You can judge them on how they behave (although what kind of criteria are you judging by?), but it is not for you to judge how they feel about their daughter.

but you being EIE... im sure this is lost to you. i've seen EIEs ability to kiss their consciences ass first hand. it's really impressive.
you can fuck off now.

You're so right, crazedrat, Oh Oracle of EIE behaviour! It's hard to imagine you've ever actually interacted with any human beings before, but I guess I'll take your word for it, since you've clearly seen right through to the core of me.

[iAnnAu]

Both of these people sound very unhealthy. How much can IM theories tell us at this point when the individuals fall far outside the norms?
I just don't want to see a long, drawn-out debate of each type's "typical" flaws when fucked up people can be fucked up in pretty much any way possible.

[crazedrat]

my point was: their fucking feelings are irrelevant, and any feelings they might have could only be serving to continue the behavior. I know this because the behavior is continuing. I explained how these kind of self delusional feelings work in the previous post I made. If you don't get it, then you can fuck off. Reading your post was like listening to a baptist argue about jesus.

[unefille]

my point was: their fucking feelings are irrelevant

I got that point. I was disputing it. Feelings don't mean everything and in most circumstances, not much at all, but in relationships and families? They do.

and any feelings they might have could only be serving to continue the behavior. I know this because the behavior is continuing.

Speculation.

I explained how these kind of self delusional feelings work in the previous post I made.

Yes, you did. About dogs and rainforests. I suppose if your tentative hypothesis about human behaviour works in the specific case, it must also apply to the general case?

If you don't get it, then you can fuck off. Reading your post was like listening to a baptist argue about jesus.

I'll have to take your word for that again. Actually, I am going to fuck off, because I have no interest in engaging you in an argument, particularly not one about your family or whatever judgments you're making. Judging and assuming, rather than understanding, is about as helpful as spitting on them, but you know, whatever. Anything else I could say at this point is probably going to be extremely insensitive, since I am making crazy speculative assumptions about your behaviour in my head.