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Thread: Interaction between the creative and the weakest functions

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    Olga's Avatar
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    Default Interaction between the creative and the weakest functions

    Dynamics between the creative and the weakest functions.


    In this article I would like to talk about the interaction between the second/creative and the third/weakest functions in order to bring some new evidence which supports the position that there is the war between these functions. This was initially discussed by S.Ganin in his article which can be found on http://www.socionincs.com/advan/howto.htm

    I would like to provide further analysis of the interaction between these functions, which will make it clear how this interaction comes to express itself in real life situations for each type. I also will be very thankful for the other types to comment if and how they can apply it to their type. If you wish to criticize, please, feel free to do so. I have been recently told by S.Ganin following as a critic:

    “The real reason I do not want to publish your article in the main section
    is because I completely disagree with your analysis. You show poor
    understanding of the functions and how they manifest themselves. Your
    interpretation is unplausible. It is either the function analysis for
    proposed types is wrong, or the proposed types are the wrong example for your function analysis. No wonder you come to the wrong conclusion“.

    I asked Ganin to provide more detail where do I go wrong exactly. Please, bear in mind that critics should be constructive and should teach me something new.

    I would like to begin the analysis with ISFJ and to show how I have come to realize it.

    I know that I often feel drained after I use my second/creative function which is extraverted sensing. As an introvert I am much happier when I just use my introverted functions the introverted feeling and introverted thinking. I like to read or to study, to work in the garden, to listen music and etc. I feel good in a in town where nobody cares about you. However, when I use my extraverted sensing excessively - behave as an extravert or a leader, take initiative, say something what I think is right, I often feel low and cannot understand why... As if I can not stand by my words!
    My weakest function is extraverted intuition which means concern over danger coming from the outside world. It can be that subconsciously I am worried about the consequences of what I did/said while I was using the creative function. I cannot predict the consequences in time and I also do not know the exact impact on the people as I don’t know them that well due to the weak intuition (extraverted and introverted).
    Extraverted sensing makes me impulsive/irrational I find it hard to wait and express myself in a very direct and simple manner, which can be irritating/offending for some people. After a while I feel not good and don't know even why! If this is to be called the war between second and third functions - let it be this way, however, this war is somehow hidden from the conscious thinking process.

    For other types this interaction will be different. I would like to consider INTJ type.
    INTJ’s second function is extraverted intuition. That means that this type is good in considering consequences of his actions and the possible impact on people and himself.
    The extraverted intuition makes the person overly careful in what he says or does and as a result INTJ type may prefer not to say or not to do what is hard to take. Later INTJ may feel not good about himself but without a conscious understanding of what is going on.
    He feels powerless, passive and demobilized. Thus, the consequences of using/having strong intuition activates the weakest function and the person feels enormous pressure.
    At this time, it would be not a good idea to say to INTJ that he has to do things as it would put even more pressure on the third function.

    For ENTP the creative function is introverted thinking and namely, rationalisation, creating a theory. According to E. Filatova, whe ENTP is sharing his new ideas/theories with others he expects support and emotional reaction (extraverted feelings/emotions- the 6 function). If the people do not show it or even feel ignorant, ENTP starts to feel low and worried that he might have said or did to upset people and they do not like him. It activates his weakest function - introverted feelings/emotions. However, Filatova suggests that in reality people simply did not understand fully what the theory was about.
    Once realised this, ENTP will be angry because he tried his real best to explain his ideas.
    It is no surprise that ENTPs like intelligent people, those who are capable to understand and appreciate their theories.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Olga's Avatar
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    Default Not a neew topic

    Hi to all,

    I would like to express my thoughts which are not quite about socionincs or rationality and irrationality in general. I don't wish to open a new topic but would rather paste it here. I am not going to say something which you didn't hear before but would like to consider what is already well known from a different perspective. The comments are welcome.

    The magic world of Irrationality


    I will come back to dream analysis later and today I would like to write some thoughts about the world of irrational: alternative therapies and placebo effects- how it works; why, according to religion, all what we need for a positive change is just to believe and why do we need (?) to pray ; the fun of music, art and dance…


    Alternative therapies and placebo effect

    I will start with mind and feelings opposition. As I mentioned before, mind is imperfect in a way that very different thoughts come to you head, which capable to guide you in a wrong direction. People are not that clever at times to differentiate which thought is potentially good or bad for them. They can fall into routine of unhealthy life style and need a change. The research suggests, that no one therapy is better than the other but emphasizes the importance of relationship between the client and therapist as the most powerful ingredient. While there is no rational/scientific explanation how and why the alternative therapies work, people appreciate it’s benefit to the client and are inclined to believe that it is nothing more as a placebo effect.

    I think, alternative therapies are not placebo effect and the mechanism of it can be explained very simple. What happens usually when you act on the client’s body, for example doing a massage? You do a motion, you are applying energy to the body of a client. This application of energy triggers the processes in the client’s body and creates or channels energy in a client’s body. This applied motion creates emotion. Positive application creates a positive emotion in both: client and therapist. Why is it positive and what is the difference between doing exercises in a gym instead of going to the shop and buying alcohol/cigarettes and etc..? Many things can make you feel good, but some are only temporarily and create a feeling of guilt, some are stable, create a positive supportive atmosphere and give a boost to your self- esteem. Going on holidays and enjoying the nature: the hit of The Sun, colour of a blue sky, freshness of water and beauty of exotic nature can have the same effect as alternative therapy in a way that talking to a good old friend can replace a counselling session.

    It is all about Love and Life. If you do actions which do not only bring enjoyment but also improve/maintain your health (maintain Life) you automatically improve your self-concept, the way you feel about yourself and others. Those who are strong enough can do it on their own, those who are weak due to the personality characteristics, illness or other circumstances will need help/support from others (need Love). That is why, (it is well known) the first and important step is to create the client-centred, supportive, caring and non-judgemental atmosphere in which the therapeutic processes can develop and changes achieved. Trying to rationalise things too much and motivate with hard methods are going to fail and build up resistance. Why, such application of power and rationalization can be perceived or felt as a negative force?
    If you push or criticise, the person might feel that something is wrong with him/her and he is not able to do it himself. The person does not feel this approach as true Love/support and naturally resists, no matter how good your intentions are.


    Why does to believe helps or how does the religion works?

    The religion states that all what you need to be saved (from all troubles) is to believe. For rational people such statement does not work as they always look for rational or scientific or common sense explanations. Religion is appreciated but only to a certain degree and understanding of religon is not much different from how we perceive the working of alternative therapies and placebo effects. Well, even if we try to rationalise about irrational things we can get a bit closer to the truth but the explanations will never be perfect or complete as this is the area of unknown and magics and you need experience and feel it rather than rationalize it.

    The religious beliefs and a prayer work on your frame of mind. You need to have the open mind in a first place or you need to try to open it in order to hear the message. To believe is to open your mind first and second is to see how it feels - to establish a connection between what you hear and what you feel. If you try to rationalize it you may block your feelings. You might like what you hear or you might not like it (or it feels right or wrong). You can reflect on the thought later and make come to a new understandings/revelations.
    Religion is expressed in a simple and symbolic language which is meaningful on the one hand but on the other hand the wordings are not too complicated to understand even for those people who have a low IQ. The idea is to make you think about the world of ethics - and can be perceived as a from of a spiritual/moral exercise. If the person will engage in such exercises regularly - it will slowly but surely change his attitudes and his frame of mind will change too. If you say the prayer every day and you do not do it just mechanically - you eventually come to believe in what you are saying. For example, if you pray to Jesus (and not just to the picture of a person called Jesus), you will start to feel his psychological presence, he becomes for you as real as you parents or friends.
    The psychological presence of the loved ones who passed away remains with you for the rest of your life… and it works! You do many things as you parents do or did, you beliefs are similar to those of the close people. These are direct, powerful, inspirational teachings, which come from one generations to another. However, you don’t need to be religious and to say prayer every day to bring a positive change. You can believe in your therapist, in a power of treatment or you can simply start to convince yourself and to work on your frame of mind by repeating the same positive messages every day depending on what area in your life you wish to improve: “ I am strong!” , “I will manage!”, “Things are going to be better”, “ I don’t like smoking/drinking, it’s disgusting!” etc. If you constantly repeat it - the magic can happen! While mind is imperfect and will seduce you with different thoughts - it is up to your free will and choice either to follow or not. … About dance, music and art…until next time.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Olga's Avatar
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    Default Clarification

    I just would like to clarify the mechanism of addiction on the mental level without going into biology. if I repeat myself, I apologize.

    Why do we smoke or overeat or demonstrate some other harmful behaviour while we consciously aware that it is not good for us and find it difficut to stop the pattern?

    I believe because the irrational desire is hidden in subcounsciour and may be not associate with any particular functions but rather with what young suggested - universal architype or collective subconscous (not sure if it is defined excatly like that but I hope you know what i am talking about). That means it is sitting somewhere deep in uncounshious as we are not aware about the exact mechanism why? we cannot break the pattern and even when the situation seems to be perfect for breaking the pattern it is still a huge struggle. All what we are aware of is that there is a voice from subcounscieous or Superid (in socionincs) which tells us: You really want to do it, you really do! and this voice is stronger than any other voices in your mind.

    How do we get into trup? -We don't notice as it happens unregistered to our awareness on subcounscious level - we become to belive that experience is actually a pleasurable one/ relief. It is of course related to biological experiences like adrenalin rise or ...etc but we do not register what excatly going on in the body, we simply feel it. It is irrational feeling which attaches a tag of pleasure to a particular experince or behaviour pattern. And by free will from the day one we "choose" to engage in this experience. Later on when we try to disangage we come to fight our own original free will and this is a power strugle, becouse the power/free will you apply to break the pattern is not less than that one you have applied originally to engage. It is not easy on your own.

    What may work or what are key ingredients to success?
    1. Free will
    2. Actively to seek help, not to believe that you can manage on your own.
    3. Those treatments which work directly on subcounscious and can alter it - should be of not less significance than just withdrawl because it is originally mental problem/addiction. It can be addiction to kill or to rape or to bully, anything that gives the person a pleasure without him understanding the "how it works ". Religon cuod be a powerful ,brainwash as we all saw with terrorists, or hypnosis as the mean to create a mental aversion.

    Sorry for mistakes!
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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