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Thread: Se Leading Stereotypes & Misconceptions

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    Default Se Leading Stereotypes & Misconceptions

    1. They aren't always these placid, calm individuals who make you cry with one perfectly executed comment.

    2. They don't stand there dishing out orders directly. They may do this on occasion, just as they do the above once in a while, but it doesn't characterise base Se.

    3. They're not people who attack you every minute of every day. Yes, they are confrontational. Yes, they are challenging. This is the nature of Se. But they do not insult you constantly.

    4. They're not idiots who just want to "get the ball rolling" for the sake of it. There is method in making something happen. They may not well foresee events like strong Niists might, but they certainly know how to work with the materials or resources they have and create something with them.

    5. They don't spend all of their time organising people and their strengths and weaknesses. Se leading people have downtime too, just like any normal human being.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    what about barfighting? Se totally = barfighting, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    what about barfighting? Se totally = barfighting, right?
    Barfighting is for every type.

    However, Se totally = prison.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Barfighting is for every type.

    However, Se totally = prison.
    What do you think of S- variants of SEI and SLI ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    What do you think of S- variants of SEI and SLI ?
    Barfighting is totally for SLI-Te types, and some LSE-Si (from my experience).

    Oh yeah and SLE of course!!!! : )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    Barfighting is totally for SLI-Te types, and some LSE-Si (from my experience).

    Oh yeah and SLE of course!!!! : )
    *hits Christy on the back with a stool* - Its on biatch
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    So what is Se exactly? How does an Se dominant disturb an Se PoLR so much, etc, etc, etc?
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    So what is Se exactly? How does an Se dominant disturb an Se PoLR so much, etc, etc, etc?
    My attempt at a description of Se wouldn't do it justice; all I can do is tell you how Se manifests itself in myself (Herzy actually wrote a description a while ago that she initially posted at SocioniX of Se leading in herself). My understanding of Se is pulled straight from a) Augusta's original description of Se, and b) the wiki's description along with - to some extent - c) Filatova's description (obviously this is of Se leading in the SLE, but you can easily see how it could apply to the SEE, and you can see Filatova's description of SEE separately).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Nice list..

    Yes, they are confrontational. Yes, they are challenging. This is the nature of Se.
    I think Se knows when being confrontational/challenging is necessary to achieve a goal... but Se egos aren't just challenging and confrontational for the hell of it. That can be more related to valued but weak Se or just weak or undervalued Fe I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    My attempt at a description of Se wouldn't do it justice; all I can do is tell you how Se manifests itself in myself (Herzy actually wrote a description a while ago that she initially posted at SocioniX of Se leading in herself). My understanding of Se is pulled straight from a) Augusta's original description of Se, and b) the wiki's description along with - to some extent - c) Filatova's description (obviously this is of Se leading in the SLE, but you can easily see how it could apply to the SEE, and you can see Filatova's description of SEE separately).
    I just read Augusta's description, and it's interesting how she says that Se can "tell what reserves of kinetic energy people have". How do you go about doing that? Is it something you can sense immediately? I know I certainly can feel the presence of Se-dominants .... Especially when I'm feeling weak - it's like they can sense this and it can be disarming. I wouldn't say that your type can impose your will on me though. I might find it hard to stand up for myself right there and then, but ultimately I'll do what I think is right.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo View Post
    I think Se knows when being confrontational/challenging is necessary to achieve a goal... but Se egos aren't just challenging and confrontational for the hell of it.
    True.

    That can be more related to valued but weak Se or just weak or undervalued Fe I think.

    Bold
    Agree with - people with weak but valued Se think they know what it is, so they attempt to act on it; it's like what Expat was saying about the pathetic hidden agenda
    Italics Disagree with - I don't understand how you reached this conclusion

    Maybe this is an argument against Ashton's being an SLE. He seems to like creating conflict for the sake of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I just read Augusta's description, and it's interesting how she says that Se can "tell what reserves of kinetic energy people have". How do you go about doing that? Is it something you can sense immediately?
    Well, put it this way. You look at a guy, and you can see from his posture, how much energy he exudes, how he talks and how he moves. All these things make up what I assume Augusta is referring to when she says "kinetic energy".

    I know I certainly can feel the presence of Se-dominants .... Especially when I'm feeling weak - it's like they can sense this and it can be disarming. I wouldn't say that your type can impose your will on me though. I might find it hard to stand up for myself right there and then, but ultimately I'll do what I think is right.
    Have you ever been in that position?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Well, put it this way. You look at a guy, and you can see from his posture, how much energy he exudes, how he talks and how he moves. All these things make up what I assume Augusta is referring to when she says "kinetic energy".
    So I guess someone could fool you by using mannerisms and gestures that denote confidence - is that right? Or is it more of an intuitive thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Have you ever been in that position?
    Well, yeah - I think so. And the effect only lasts while I'm in the actual presence of the person. ... But I guess sometimes that's all it takes. As soon as the person goes, I come to my senses and call myself an idiot for going along with them. :-)
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    where does all the shit about violence come into it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    where does all the shit about violence come into it?
    At least a good part of that is a myth, I think.

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    yeah, I wonder why it's not in Ezra's list ... perhaps it comes under #3

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    Se and violence is not totally a myth. The biggest bully at my school was an ESTp. He really was a tosser, getting in fights for no real reason. Of course that is only one example.

    My friends brother is an ESTp and he pushes his body to the limits when running, weight training etc. He is a great guy but hes definately not scared of confrontation / fights. On the soccer field if someone does something he doesn't approve of he will get right up in their faces about it. Another friends brother is an SEE on that same team and recently when he was a linesman he was heckling the other team so much that some of the guys were ready to fight him afterwards.

    Se is a lot of things to sure. Se to me, and i probablly am totally wrong because i have some of the weakest Se in the socion, is like a fire burning inside someone. They seem to be able to use that fire/energy to build confidence, to handle other people, focus etc. I can definately see other Se people quite easily, since they operate in that way that i kind of wish i could but never will (role).
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    You make some interesting points there Meatburger.

    Part of my take on Se is that there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say. It is interested in power and the like but it recognises how to achieve it. It's not just a case of punching it's way through people.

    Se in my opinion is a great motivator..especially dominant Se..it really knows how to get people doing things.

    I know some ESTp's who have never been in a fight..in fact they're extremely hard to provoke in that way, but once they do get wound up, it is also difficult for them to calm down.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the spontaneous use of aggression is in the wiki Se leading descriptions at least. But aggression doesn't necessarily equal violence. In fact the spontaneous use of aggression doesn't need to involve physical fights at all. There are "lighter" ways to be aggressive. And it could be used to prevent fights rather than to provoke them.
    You're correct. Wiki is incorrect about (wiki's better at most of the other functions.) I'd be reluctant to use the word aggressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    I'd be reluctant to use the word aggressive.
    why?

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    why?
    Because it can have connotations, the connotations it seems to have, at least on the forums, from what I can see. In terms of aggressive-it could mean an aggressive go getter-which isn't actually that bad a thing, but the word aggressive can and seems to be associated with physical aggressiveness, or even psychologically aggressive-"angry" types of people, which I think is misleading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It is interested in power and the like but it recognises how to achieve it. It's not just a case of punching it's way through people.

    Se in my opinion is a great motivator..especially dominant Se..it really knows how to get people doing things.
    The ESTp I know is just like this in that he knows how to get things done. I could never see him in a fist fight (well, he's almost 50 so that could have something to do with it) but I could see him in someone's face if they insulted someone he loves (wife, daughters, etc). He moves mountains for his friends when they need him. Pulls out all the stops. I admire him very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Italics Disagree with - I don't understand how you reached this conclusion
    Well, Fe egos seem less confrontational, maybe more subtle, in general. Not that they are spineless, but like they aren't always as comfortable being confrontational as people with weak Fe. Of course, this depends on the situation too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Because it can have connotations, the connotations it seems to have, at least on the forums, from what I can see. In terms of aggressive-it could mean an aggressive go getter-which isn't actually that bad a thing, but the word aggressive can and seems to be associated with physical aggressiveness, or even psychologically aggressive-"angry" types of people, which I think is misleading.
    It doesn't need to have connotations... if people read things into it that go beyond what it means that's their problem. I don't see aggression as necessarily a bad thing. It can be... but so can a lot of things.

    The "spontaneous use of aggression" doesn't have to mean any of those things you mentioned for instance.

    As an example, the oft-noted Rocky (from the movie) is SEE and I would say his character spontaneously uses aggression... but is he angry or violent (except for being a boxer) or psychologically aggressive? Not really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It doesn't need to have connotations... if people read things into it that go beyond what it means that's their problem. I don't see aggression as necessarily a bad thing. It can be... but so can a lot of things.

    The "spontaneous use of aggression" doesn't have to mean any of those things you mentioned for instance.

    As an example, the oft-noted Rocky (from the movie) is SEE and I would say his character spontaneously uses aggression... but is he angry or violent (except for being a boxer) or psychologically aggressive? Not really.
    I'm working from memory here, so I could be incorrect, but as I recall-the wiki does correlate Se with physical aggression..even violence, I certainly recall something similar to this in the functional description of ESTp. Rick frequently makes references to people loosing their temper with Se. Infact..one such example occurs when he's discussing one of the Rocky films.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Deified :p Wiki
    The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively.

    He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.

    He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role.

    He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
    I have quoted as leading function.

    What are your thoughts, Cyclops? Actually what are ego types on the forum's thoughts?

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    I should add that Rocky may not be the best example since he's a) a fictional character and b) an leading fictional character who also happens to be a boxer... And how aggressive or non-aggressive the average ego person appears to an observer could have something to to with the type of the observer.

    Actually the part in there that I sort of jump on when I read it is this:

    However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role.
    This makes it sound like, sure they welcome your ideas as long as they get the credit... Um...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I have quoted as leading function.

    What are your thoughts, Cyclops? Actually what are ego types on the forum's thoughts?
    This is actually quite a good description. It seems my memory of what it said wasn't quite right. I think i'm of the same opinion of you in terms of what dominant is about, and you're right that it is down to people interpretation of what "aggressive" means.

    Out of curiousity, what do you make of Meatburgers post earlier in the thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I should add that Rocky may not be the best example since he's a) a fictional character and b) an leading fictional character who also happens to be a boxer... And how aggressive or non-aggressive the average ego person appears to an observer could have something to to with the type of the observer.
    Well, I could try and find it on Ricks blog where he's talking about one of the Rocky films (I think he uses it to refer to Fi as well..but I'd better check as I'm not trusting my memory this evening aha)
    Actually the part in there that I sort of jump on when I read it is this:

    This makes it sound like, sure they welcome your ideas as long as they get the credit... Um...
    I think the last part is more a case of utilising someones (or a group of peoples) talents in order to achieve it's own goal. Of course it's own goal may be something purely for itself, imho, or it's goal could be for it's team to succeed, if the Se dominant was a manager for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Barfighting is for every type.

    However, Se totally = prison.
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    I don't remember Rocky being violent or ill-tempered or aggressive at all... boxing was just a sport for him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    I'm working from memory here, so I could be incorrect, but as I recall-the wiki does correlate Se with physical aggression..even violence, I certainly recall something similar to this in the functional description of ESTp. Rick frequently makes references to people loosing their temper with Se. Infact..one such example occurs when he's discussing one of the Rocky films.
    people like to make this association, but it's utterly idiotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Out of curiousity, what do you make of Meatburgers post earlier in the thread?
    Not really anything. He's describing two leading people he knows...

    Well, I could try and find it on Ricks blog where he's talking about one of the Rocky films (I think he uses it to refer to Fi as well..but I'd better check as I'm not trusting my memory this evening aha)
    I found it. I didn't have an issue with any mention of on that either. Though I found the statement "and related yelling ensues" to be rather amusing, lol.

    I'm not aware of any mentions of being tied to people losing their temper, nor do I really see why it would be.

    Anyway, maybe can be "correlated" to violence in the same way that can be correlated to being fake/phoney and can be correlated to being health-conscious, etc. Maybe it's a connection that's so loose it doesn't mean anything...

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    Se dominants are typically the least openly-aggressive types.

    A Se advance is a bit like being greeted at the door by evangelists. They are persistent, tactical, and skilled in a myriad of ways to maneuver themselves across your threshold - with a disarming smile. You feel the pressure but it's not alarming. Se "encourages" compliance; firmly and persistently.

    "Aggressive" Se is like a resolute military march across an open field; not a bloody, chaotic village raid. The latter is indicative of Se in an inferior position. Inferior Se cannot properly assess the level of aggression - or the least chaotic method of advance - necessary to achieve its agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    So I guess someone could fool you by using mannerisms and gestures that denote confidence - is that right? Or is it more of an intuitive thing?
    It's intuitive. Just as a Fi ego type knows if when you say "I love you" you actually do mean it, a Se ego type can tell if you're putting a brave front on.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    yeah, I wonder why it's not in Ezra's list ... perhaps it comes under #3
    I think it's a bit of an obvious one. Everyone knows that Se does not equal bullying and fighting, so I didn't even see the need to put it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Se and violence is not totally a myth. The biggest bully at my school was an ESTp. He really was a tosser, getting in fights for no real reason. Of course that is only one example.
    This isn't just because he's an SLE. This is because he's unhealthy. All bullies are.

    My friends brother is an ESTp and he pushes his body to the limits when running, weight training etc. He is a great guy but hes definately not scared of confrontation / fights. On the soccer field if someone does something he doesn't approve of he will get right up in their faces about it. Another friends brother is an SEE on that same team and recently when he was a linesman he was heckling the other team so much that some of the guys were ready to fight him afterwards.
    This sounds about right. Typically resembles myself actually when I work out; I just go until my arms give way. When I used to run I used a tactic where at I'd sprint the last 300 metres as fast as I possibly could. Apparently it's quite effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the spontaneous use of aggression is in the wiki Se leading descriptions at least. But aggression doesn't necessarily equal violence. In fact the spontaneous use of aggression doesn't need to involve physical fights at all. There are "lighter" ways to be aggressive. And it could be used to prevent fights rather than to provoke them.
    Very good and important point, especially the bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    You're correct. Wiki is incorrect about (wiki's better at most of the other functions.) I'd be reluctant to use the word aggressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Because it can have connotations, the connotations it seems to have, at least on the forums, from what I can see. In terms of aggressive-it could mean an aggressive go getter-which isn't actually that bad a thing, but the word aggressive can and seems to be associated with physical aggressiveness, or even psychologically aggressive-"angry" types of people, which I think is misleading.
    I actually think "aggressive" is quite a good word to use. Se egos are aggressive, and this can be in both a "good" and a "bad" way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo View Post
    Well, Fe egos seem less confrontational, maybe more subtle, in general. Not that they are spineless, but like they aren't always as comfortable being confrontational as people with weak Fe. Of course, this depends on the situation too.
    Hold up. Why weak Fe? What about those with weak Fe and Se, even if the Se is valued, such as LIEs and ILIs?

    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    Se dominants are typically the least openly-aggressive types.

    A Se advance is a bit like being greeted at the door by evangelists. They are persistent, tactical, and skilled in a myriad of ways to maneuver themselves across your threshold - with a disarming smile. You feel the pressure but it's not alarming. Se "encourages" compliance; firmly and persistently.

    "Aggressive" Se is like a resolute military march across an open field; not a bloody, chaotic village raid. The latter is indicative of Se in an inferior position. Inferior Se cannot properly assess the level of aggression - or the least chaotic method of advance - necessary to achieve its agenda.
    I think you're being idealistic about Se. If liquidating a village is the most effective action for a goal, a Se ego type will carry this out. If a fight must happen, for whatever reason, a Se ego type will fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I think you're being idealistic about Se. If liquidating a village is the most effective action for a goal, a Se ego type will carry this out. If a fight must happen, for whatever reason, a Se ego type will fight.
    isn't there some Te there as well?

  35. #35
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Se and violence is not totally a myth. The biggest bully at my school was an ESTp. He really was a tosser, getting in fights for no real reason. Of course that is only one example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Not really anything. He's describing two leading people he knows...
    He does say it's only one example, but he is still equating the bullying and violent behaviour with Se, which is a stereotypical mistake, I think.
    I found it. I didn't have an issue with any mention of on that either. Though I found the statement "and related yelling ensues" to be rather amusing, lol.
    Yelling could be Fe-we don't really know for certain what function a person is using I guess. (lols at yelling tho-I think it's an amusing word)

    Anyway, maybe can be "correlated" to violence in the same way that can be correlated to being fake/phoney and can be correlated to being health-conscious, etc. Maybe it's a connection that's so loose it doesn't mean anything...
    I wonder if Fe can also be correlated to violence-ie it's an external expression of emotion in a way? Or maybe Si-because the person is totally sure of their body they're quite happy to use it as a weapon. I don't think violence is mutually exclusive to Se of course (and neither do you) but functionally-if violence occurs, I don't think it has to be just Se either.

    But then, overall, maybe I'm seeing more of a stereotype for such a myth than what's actually there. I'll have a think about it.

  36. #36
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    isn't there some Te there as well?
    Maybe, yes. After all, SEEs have Te HA and SLEs are Te demonstrative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    He does say it's only one example, but he is still equating the bullying and violent behaviour with Se, which is a stereotypical mistake, I think.
    I was using the examples of two Se leading types, but believe me i have met a great deal of them. I am not saying Se = Violence, but im saying i would not be suprised if there was some correlation. I think in my bully example you are correct in saying that he was unhealthy, i totally agree. I think the manifestation of his unhealthiness could be somewhat to do with his ego functions. He worked out that he could boss people around and use physical violence if required to get what he wanted. I think beating the shit out of someone and demeaning to the other person, and it can give you a feeling of power to achieve this.

    Another SEE i know loves to pick on people he doesn't like at parties. He gets reinforcement from his friends because they think hes awesome for doing it. Im interested though because both SEE's are scrawny, so they probablly dont desire to actually fight.

    I do readily admit that the most aggressive people (ive) ever seen are ISTp's. Ive seen it plenty of times, they can and will destroy you under some circumstances, and often seem to be able to rationalise it. Of course they only do it to people who really piss them off though. I was on the ski slopes with my ISTp friend, when we walked outside a guy poured his beer on him and before i knew it the guy was knocked out stone cold and we were running away. I just think if you look at Se polr types, physical violence is often the last thing from their minds. I do think there is a perhaps stronger correlation with body size and percieved strength and aggressiveness though.
    Last edited by meatburger; 05-13-2008 at 10:36 AM.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

  38. #38
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    He does say it's only one example, but he is still equating the bullying and violent behaviour with Se, which is a stereotypical mistake, I think.
    I saw it at as his impressions. I didn't think he was trying to be (or even necessarily being) stereotypical in his thinking... just saying what he had noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Yelling could be Fe-we don't really know for certain what function a person is using I guess. (lols at yelling tho-I think it's an amusing word)
    I think what was meant was that it was specifically -related yelling, not that all yelling is .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick's blog
    Scenes with Rocky and his son are also particularly poignant and use the same kinds of techniques to make the audience cry and empathize. Note that almost everywhere is mixed with (challenging each other, getting rough, telling each other what they want, etc.).
    I think this gets at the overall feel Rick perceives in the movie(s). (Actually I take that back... )

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    I wonder if Fe can also be correlated to violence-ie it's an external expression of emotion in a way? Or maybe Si-because the person is totally sure of their body they're quite happy to use it as a weapon. I don't think violence is mutually exclusive to Se of course (and neither do you) but functionally-if violence occurs, I don't think it has to be just Se either.
    At some level everything can be correlated to everything else. I think the reasons behind someone being violent might have more to do with IM metabolism than violence itself. I don't know though... I guess I think trying to connect violence with IM metabolism would be a rather fruitless endeavor.

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    zenbrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I think you're being idealistic about Se. If liquidating a village is the most effective action for a goal, a Se ego type will carry this out. If a fight must happen, for whatever reason, a Se ego type will fight.
    The analogy was intended to demonstrate the difference between dominant- "advance-acquire" and inferior- "attack-destroy".

  40. #40
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    The analogy was intended to demonstrate the difference between dominant- "advance-acquire" and inferior- "attack-destroy".
    Okay, fair enough.

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