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Thread: How to spot XLE

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    Default How to spot XLE

    I think all logical types are simply not as good at smiling on command as ethicals. But in general, EPs are much more demonstrative, and try to overcome this by being silly or over-expressive when the need for smiling arises. EJs, I think, tend to look down right uncomfortable about it.

    Note that this is not always true for genuine natural smiles, like when someone tells a good joke or when you are with loved ones.

    Observe:



    The two guys in this picture have Fi PoLR. Notice how they over-exaggerate Fe in a completely retarded manner, while using Ti to mock it at the same time.

    Center-left is my SLE brother. Also note that he uses gross motor skills to exaggerate, whereas I (far right) use finer motor control (you really can't see that in this blurry pic) to imitate the behavior.





    This pic contrasts XLE and LXE. We are actually both trying to look "natural" (lol) and smile normally. We both suck at it.

    My LIE friend on the left has moved his face a whole lot less, and doesn't really raise his cheeks when he smiles. His gaze has a more "serious" look to it, and he seems unwilling to get into it. I, on the other hand, look pretty happy but also pretty goofy, with more of my face being involved in the smile than seems necessary.

    This is just some examples of things I am personally beginning to notice in VI. I'm trying to record my observations more regularly so I can present them more clearly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    wow... just wow...

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    This is classic riddy, classic.
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    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post


    This is classic riddy, classic.
    This is gay riddy, gay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    This is gay riddy, gay.
    Really? I thought it was very straight. Oh well. Bend over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    This is gay riddy, gay.
    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Really? I thought it was very straight. Oh well. Bend over.
    What's with you guys and the gay jokes?!
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Yeah, I've done what you're brother is doing a few times in the first photo. People tell me to smile, I cannot just smile because they're telling me to. I'd rather someone took a photo of me while I wasn't aware, because otherwise I have to pose which I despise doing. When I pose, I pose completely inexpressively, because if I smile it looks utterly retarded.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    The two guys in this picture have Fi PoLR. Notice how they over-exaggerate Fe in a completely retarded manner, while using Ti to mock it at the same time.
    I dunno if this is possible, but could you point out to me where exactly to see the Ti?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    What's with you guys and the gay jokes?!
    Fuck you
    I'm an anteater.

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    This is actually a super awesome observation ! I've never quite thought about it, but now when I do, it applies to many xLEs that I've known in my day as well. They would be overly about smiling, looking goofy and playing up the atmosphere. It wouldn't be natural like Fe ego types. It's overcompensating for what they know they need. Since they're Fi PoLR, I think the over-exaggeration comes to them b/c they really don't know how else to look when a camera is around. They feel they have to be OVERLY smiley to demonstrate good mood or something. I've even noticed this when cameras are NOT around - just to lighten the mood, they will be really silly/smiley, while LxE's never do stuff like that.


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    This is an awesome observation! And helpful as far as VI-ing goes. My parents are both logical types and they both have that problem. My LII mother gives smiling a shot in photos but they always looks unnatural, and my dad doesn't even bother trying anymore (lol), 'cause his smiles make it look he's experiencing some sort of physical discomfort.
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    I haven't been able to decide between SEE and SLE for this girl. Now I reckon she's probably SLE, because she can never just smile normally in photos.
    Last edited by Rubicon; 05-15-2008 at 03:19 PM.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I haven't been able to decide between SEE and SLE for this girl. Now I reckon she's probably SLE, because she can never just smile normally in photos. [/IMG]
    The blonde is kinda cute.
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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    It can be funky to take oneself into a large, quite busy room/hall and observe the differences in people, an see this sorta stuff in action, I reckon.
    Last edited by Cyclops; 05-09-2008 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    The blonde is kinda cute.
    thanks
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    I dunno if this is possible, but could you point out to me where exactly to see the Ti?
    Haha, the Ti is implicit here; you can't really see it. This behavior is about being able to observe and imitate social norms analytically. I don't naturally do the sorority girl pose whenever I take a picture. But I can recognize that my doing it doesn't "fit" into the general idea very well. So my understanding of the humor come from my ability to recognize rules and identify patterns, and consequently break them.

    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I haven't been able to decide between SEE and SLE for this girl. Now I reckon she's probably SLE, because she can never just smile normally in photos.

    (This picture has been removed. I thank the gracious owner thereof for allowing it to be posted while it was here. -- Riddy)
    Nice contrast. Your friend has that really exaggerated smile thing going on, and the girl on the left (I wonder who that is...) has a much more subtle and natural look about her when she is smiling. IEEs and SEEs also tend to be very demonstrative in pictures, but they tend to appear to me to be able to take it more seriously. I have a SEE friend who always tries to appear tough and manly (which made me think he was SLE for a while), but actually looks pretty natural when he smiles. It's always a judgment call, but hopefully pictures like these will help people identify patterns.

    Oh, and BTW, the girl on the left is beautiful...
    Last edited by JRiddy; 05-16-2008 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Picture removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Oh, and BTW, the girl on the left is beautiful...
    <3
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Haha, the Ti is implicit here; you can't really see it. This behavior is about being able to observe and imitate social norms analytically. I don't naturally do the sorority girl pose whenever I take a picture. But I can recognize that my doing it doesn't "fit" into the general idea very well. So my understanding of the humor come from my ability to recognize rules and identify patterns, and consequently break them.
    Wow that's...complicated!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I haven't been able to decide between SEE and SLE for this girl. Now I reckon she's probably SLE, because she can never just smile normally in photos.



    huh. to me that girl looks SEE for sure. think liveandletlive. i've never seen SLE give smiles and crazy faces like that. think ESTP who posts here.

    but i think JRiddy's concept is right...that the smiles of XLE's are a little bit too much and forced or something.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Wow that's...complicated!
    And what's weird is I actually think that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    And what's weird is I actually think that way.
    Yeah well uhm, that's useful to understand better why an ENTp I know does some things that I perceive as strange.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    huh. to me that girl looks SEE for sure. think liveandletlive. i've never seen SLE give smiles and crazy faces like that. think ESTP who posts here.

    but i think JRiddy's concept is right...that the smiles of XLE's are a little bit too much and forced or something.
    SLEs can give crazy faces for sure. Even an LSI will throw in a crazy face every here and now. I want to shy away from descriptions of what types do, and focus on how types do something. It's not like SLEs don't ever want to be friendly. When they do, it will often be exaggerated because they approach expression from a Ti perspective; i.e., they observe that patterns and rules that people use in situations. This is not the natural understanding of social attitudes Fi-types will have.

    The way I try to distinguish between SXEs is that SLEs appear to be looking at you, whereas SEEs appear to be looking in you, in a metaphorical sense. The SLE looks at you as though they are trying to size you up and figure out where you fit in some external sense; The SEE looks at you almost like they can see through you, with a casually powerful gaze, and often they have this degree of focus in social situations that does not really appear in SLEs. I've seen pictures of liveandletlive, and I've seen her on cam, and she has a very powerful look, especially compared to Chopin's friend here.

    But I'm not an expert. If there are other things you notice or think I'm not taking account of, please let me know . (Ha! I just realized even my emoticon smiles are usually forced!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    This is actually a super awesome observation ! I've never quite thought about it, but now when I do, it applies to many xLEs that I've known in my day as well. They would be overly about smiling, looking goofy and playing up the atmosphere. It wouldn't be natural like Fe ego types. It's overcompensating for what they know they need. Since they're Fi PoLR, I think the over-exaggeration comes to them b/c they really don't know how else to look when a camera is around. They feel they have to be OVERLY smiley to demonstrate good mood or something. I've even noticed this when cameras are NOT around - just to lighten the mood, they will be really silly/smiley, while LxE's never do stuff like that.
    Yeah, I get way too smiley when I'm trying to demonstrate happiness. LXEs will smile, and sometimes even vividly, but it seems they try to smile more appropriately. Giving off too much Fe is an anti-pattern for them, so they will almost never try to exaggerate Fe levels the way XLEs do sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    It's overcompensating for what they know they need.
    Funny, because I've never felt I need to pose a smile for a picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    thanks
    Is that you, chopin? Yeah, you have that kind of natural look to you.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    i know i'm all messed up with understanding my type but i do this. big time. not saying i'm xle, but i do it for the same reasons you mentioned.

    all my enthusiasm on this forum is forced. i don't do it naturally. i grew up with a sister who did and she was "da bomb" as far as my mom was concerned. goofball kelly jo, oh well, at least you're good at art. stop asking so many why questions all of the time, stop asking so many questions about how and why others behave the way they do. lighten up and be like your sister all ready.

    the pic of me in my avatar is so forced of a smile. who wants to look at a picture of a serious analytical girl? people want you to smile. so, it's always posed. irl, my face is always serious trying to figure things out.

    lv
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    <3
    is that you chopin? you ARE beautiful.

    lv
    kj

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    i know i'm all messed up with understanding my type but i do this. big time. not saying i'm xle, but i do it for the same reasons you mentioned.

    all my enthusiasm on this forum is forced. i don't do it naturally. i grew up with a sister who did and she was "da bomb" as far as my mom was concerned. goofball kelly jo, oh well, at least you're good at art. stop asking so many why questions all of the time, stop asking so many questions about how and why others behave the way they do. lighten up and be like your sister all ready.

    the pic of me in my avatar is so forced of a smile. who wants to look at a picture of a serious analytical girl? people want you to smile. so, it's always posed. irl, my face is always serious trying to figure things out.

    lv
    kj
    I see what you mean. Ethical types can also be analytical, and have difficulty smiling. I guess I notice subtleties in the differences that are hard to explain. Fe doesnt mean bubbles and smiles, and Ti doesnt mean analysis. The pictures are there to kinda provide a chance to see the differences. Other types besides ILEs and SLEs can have forced or ridiculous smiles...it's the use of Ti to both parody and pay homage to Fe that I wanted to demonstrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I thought this whole thread was a parody, right? Was I supposed to take it seriously? I was surprised that so many others did.

    My brother is ENFj, and he practically never smiles in pictures, because he doesn't see the point of the smiling just to put others at ease.

    Go figure?
    Haha, dolphin, I'm usually being serious and silly at the same time. I'm trying to observe patterns and traits, but I don't want it to get too serious or general, because I'm not clear on a lot of things. I mean, I don't believe in some sort of "vivid natural smile --> leading Fe" rule, or "goofy exaggerated smile --> creative Ti" thing. But I do see patterns, and I want to present them so they can be critiqued.

    Obviously there's way more to a smile than type, but I really think there are things in people's faces that tell a lot about them. There are a bajillion muscles in the face, so no one has conscious control of them all at a low level. Also, I just think that first picture is funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Actually I do know what you're doing, the whole "serious and silly" thing at the same time. But it kind of ruins things when you have to explain it, doesn't it? I'm sorry. I feel bad that I made you spell things out.
    If there's one thing that I like it's explaining things. Don't worry about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    If there's one thing that I like it's explaining things. Don't worry about it.
    ditto, my sis, everyone, gets exasperated with all my explaining. but, i love it! it's a huge thing that is so fun about homeschooling my kids. so much to learn and explore and explain!!

    lv
    kj

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    is that you chopin? you ARE beautiful.

    lv
    kj
    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    She is, isn't she?
    Thanks ladies.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    ditto, my sis, everyone, gets exasperated with all my explaining. but, i love it! it's a huge thing that is so fun about homeschooling my kids. so much to learn and explore and explain!!

    lv
    kj
    keep an openmind and never stop asking.....and have fun while you're doing it.

    off to my oldest bball game, have fun!

    lv
    kj

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    She is, isn't she?

    You are too. What a beautiful, infectious smile.
    thanks, i wish i could smile like that more naturally....

    lv
    kj

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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    HOLYSHIT JRIDDY!!!
    What?

    JRiddy
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    This is a really interesting thread. You guys offer a lot of insight - so much to learn!

    I find that SLE guys are the easiest for me to identify, in pictures and irl. An SLE guy's smile, when it is on command for the camera rather than spontaneous, rarely seems to reach his eyes. A lot of times this seems to make them look detached or even cold in photos, regardless of what their mouths are doing. I think it's trickier with SLE girls (maybe with girls in general, actually) b/c girls are more used to smiling on command for photos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Haha, the Ti is implicit here; you can't really see it. This behavior is about being able to observe and imitate social norms analytically. I don't naturally do the sorority girl pose whenever I take a picture. But I can recognize that my doing it doesn't "fit" into the general idea very well. So my understanding of the humor come from my ability to recognize rules and identify patterns, and consequently break them.
    We share similar tastes in humor.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    If you are ever around either one of them, you may get a sense of destructiveness, maybe related to Fi POLR.


    SLE: A blazing through kind of destructiveness

    ILE: A haphazard kind of destructiveness
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

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    -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    If you are ever around either one of them, you may get a sense of destructiveness, maybe related to Fi POLR.


    SLE: A blazing through kind of destructiveness

    ILE: A haphazard kind of destructiveness
    that's an interesting way of describing it, but i can see that. thanks!

    lv
    kj

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    Nice input on the "destructiveness". Though I would hesitate to describe myself as destructive, I am confident others would, because they view as fairly caustic, especially in it's analytical criticism and general disregard for other's attitudes (= bad ).

    Also, I would generally perceive my own "haphazardness" as carefully controlled chaos. Honestly, I like being the guy that puts in small inputs that make huge differences, and being able to predict the outcome to some extent, although I don't think prediction is particularly related to . If you know football (the fun kind), SLEs run aggressive pass rushes and SLB run blitzes, where as ILEs like the 3-4 and play read and react, with safeties and corners coming off the edges at you. If you don't like football, then you don't get to understand that metaphor.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  40. #40
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    I'm going to resurrect Elro's remark from (not so) long ago...

    SLE = > : has a huge focus on their toys... their toys are theirs damn it! Chooses a toy and hangs onto it.

    ILE = > : has a hard time selecting a toy... all the toys are so interesting... which one which one??? keeps abandoning old toys, seeking out new, novel toys.

    Otherwise... same.

    Of course this says noting about how to separate the two of them from the rest of the socion.

    (Elro's original post: third one down in this thread.)
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-12-2008 at 06:07 PM. Reason: adding reference...

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