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Thread: Use of the role function

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    Default Use of the role function.

    It seems to me that the role function is a kind of corrective, parental function, that takes over when PoLR pressure or guilt transpires. For instance, my role function is , and when I feel like I am being lazy, my kicks in and tries to force me into a kind of tough love mentality with myself, and sort of kicks me out of the habit. However, I believe the real problem with causing my laziness is , and is simply a more pleasant way of dealing with the symptoms of my PoLR, without the pain of trying to cope with the weakness. Any pressure on the PoLR is very uncomfortable, and blaming it laziness, or lack of , instead of the real problem seems to be at least one of the uses of the role function (at least mine).

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    FINE DON'T TELL ME IF YOU THINK THE ROLE FUNCTION IS* MAINLY A CORRECTIVE FUNCTION USED TO TAKE ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE POLR.

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    I think it goes back and forth between the role function and the hidden agenda, but we feel more healthy and balanced when we're using the role function because it's not as obvious that we're covering up a weakness.
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    Default Hidden agenda and role functions

    I think that the role of the role function is not to take attention from the weak function but rather to support her and create the conditions that you do not feel that much pressure on your PolR function, to provide some kind of hope if you wish...For example, if you have problem with it demand you to do something about it, to use your but not just to do anything but using the objective knowledge collected by your dominanat function It seems to me that nor reason for being sador worried to much, as we all have got everything we need to succeed. The worry is only if we hear the concern of the weakest function but prefer to ignore it.

    I think that directions in the block superego from the PolR to the role function - sort of activation of the role function by the weakest function and in the block ego from the dominanat/first to the second function. For examle, For ENTP type is natural to use his intuition - create ideas... however if he feels something is not ok with his intuitive feeling than he uses more thinking/ theoretical basis. I am not saying that all what I am saing may be true...just ideas. I have read somewhere that information circultes between the functions. And i have to say more about ENTP. One ENTP person was very kind to share his perspective on working of the functions so it would be interesting to know if it is going to ring the bell for the others...

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    Default 2/3 functions

    I just have wrote the post to my article by ananlysing the interaction between 2 and 3 functions. It must be a reason for frustration or feeling low at times. Please, check it out.
    For ENTP it could be a theoretical basis for what I said on the topic frustration. When he uses his second/creative function (rationalise and express his ideas) he feels later as if people did not show to him enough reassurance/support and this is why he start to feel inadequate.
    Is that this war between 2 and third/PolR functions meant Ganin?
    Does it make any sense?
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    Default ENTP

    This is what one person whose type is ENTP wrote to me about his experiences of the weak function:

    About the weak external feeling function, I meant it more like in the description. I find it very difficult to interpret external feeling in others (despite thinking that my intuition is great! ) and consequently to react adequatly. It's sometimes awkward, I have problems to know the proper distance, being sometimes too reserved and sometimes too close . I wouldn't say I have a general problem with relationships, as I make friends quite easily and generaly let a good impression wherever I go, but it has caused enough problems with girls, either with me not believing signs of interest and not going after the opportunities, or me thinking that a girl was showing interest and than having the embarresment! This had the consequence of me getting a little shy to show my external feelings, except when under effect of alcohol and similar, when I can get annoyingly sentimental. Finally, I think the whole excessive romantism is also an expression of the weak external feeling function. I get in love easily and stay idealising the current object of attention, till it wains... It is also my deepest wish, to be loved (admired, respected), if possible by everybody!
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    I have as role function and I relate to a lot of what this ENTp described, but not at all to being loved and admired by everybody as "deepest wish".

    However, I confess I cannot see how my role function would act as a "corrective" to the POLR.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Do you think people use their role function to help them out when they feel insecure or during times of change and uncertainty?

    I know when I'm avoiding dealing with an issue I get this overwhelming feeling of having to DO something. I'm never satisfied though. No matter what I do I feel I should be doing something else.

    This is starting to remind me of the dissociative issues I've been writing about in my "I'm grounded" thread. It seems that this could be another way of not looking at something that you don't want to look at. It's a way of hiding. *shrugs*
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    Default entj

    To Expat,

    Shall we have a look firstly what relates to weak or to your hidden agenda. According to Ganin, your hidden agenda is:

    ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy

    What Ganin calls hidden agenda was known long ego as an instinct of danger - third/ weak, PolR function. However, more than ten years ego, Filatova wrote that for:

    ENFJ and ENTJ -it is the desire to be healthy and attractive. I do doubt in what Ganin says because I had a husband ENTJ who was killing me by his love to spend money by experimenting with his hobbies. Money went like water through his fingers. He prefered to spend them on some luxaury and romantic holidays like healthfarm, the dinner at ...the most expensive restaurant in London or weakend in a country Hotel. He was poor like a mouse, he earned ans saved mony for it. As regards to health - he cares more than INTJ but still a smoker for his life. And after all this ENTJ suppose to be my ideal type! If we consider wealth with a luxuary life stype than we can eccept Ganin's suggestion - the desire to be whealthy. However, I know ENTJ as a survivor, who can go through all possible challenges of uncomfortable environment in order to get where he wants to. He is not that posh and fussy.

    Secondly, shall we have a look What the third function means for ENTJ from a theoretical point:

    According to Filatova, people try create some sort of harmony on their third function. They are able to criticise themselves but sensitive to the critics of others. He is afraid of being ill and that is why takes care about their food, engages in some kind of healthy/sporty activity (e.g lots of walknig). He does not complain about feeling unwell and tries to be always in a good shape/form. He is capable of looking afte his appearance, wear fashionable and good quality ( well ironed? ) clothes, looks busyness like, classy.

    ENTJ likes risk - however, if he has lost in ...(e.g lottery/gambling)or his dream failed he is not the one to cry in your shoulder. He would rather make a scandal and express himself in powerful emotions than bottle up his feelings when his worries reach it's high. On the other hand, corrective will show him always smiling, he is able to charm the company, tell jokes, bring a positive spirit.

    ENTJ likes people who fight for their goals.
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    Default To Joy

    ENTP have got as a weak function. According to Jacubovskakj -honesty and fiarness in people means a lot for them. his hidden agenda is "Be fair!".

    As I could not find appropriate info in the book I give my interpretation.
    If something happens and he feels to be treated unfairly - he will feel a drive to to actually something like... scandal! ENTP will be direct and will use the words he thinks appropriate for the moment. Or ENTP might do something very positive - for example to go and spoil the loved ones if he/she feels they miss on something they deserve. That will be his corrective function in action.
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    Default Jakubovskaja

    Sorry, i did write the name of the authour wrongly. Jakubovskaja!

    It would be interesting to know if what I write agrees with your feelings and please, feel free to correct me.
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    fairness, hmm? that's sorta funny... I have said many times that I'll do anything for an employer who is fair, even a strict one. One who loses my respect is lucky if I show up. That's prolly why I've had more than 20 jobs
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    hmmm ... what's an INTj's hidden agenda?

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    Default At Last

    At last I understood how Ganin's hidden agenda can be applied to my type. I am not feeling bad only at times when I abuse my creative/second function. i also feel bad when i don't want to work on my 4th function - just feeling too lazy/passive and depressive ( exactly how i feel now). Why that? May be because i feel that i will not manage, it's too hard, too much to do in a short time.... To change my psychological state i have to belive as a first step that everything will be on the opposite - to imagine sort of nice future and put yourself in a positive state. My weak function is my hidden agenda is to believe. As far as I remember for INTJ it was to be healthy. May be INTJ does not have strength to look much after his health and at times feeling poweless to change things and to start really care about his health or may be he just need to do things for his health (diet, exercises ...) for him to feel better. Jacubovskaja's hidden agenda will be- I have to push myself to do things.
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    Default Re: entj

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I do doubt in what Ganin says because I had a husband ENTJ who was killing me by his love to spend money by experimenting with his hobbies. Money went like water through his fingers. He prefered to spend them on some luxaury and romantic holidays like healthfarm, the dinner at ...the most expensive restaurant in London or weakend in a country Hotel. He was poor like a mouse, he earned ans saved mony for it. As regards to health - he cares more than INTJ but still a smoker for his life. And after all this ENTJ suppose to be my ideal type! If we consider wealth with a luxuary life stype than we can eccept Ganin's suggestion - the desire to be whealthy.
    From this description, as far as it goes, I very very much doubt your ex-husband is an ENTj.

    The ENTjs I know - including myself - do like to spend money on such things on occasion, but not to the point of endangering their longer-term goal ie to be wealthy - wealthy in the sense of accumulating wealth, not in the sense of enjoying a sensory-pleasing lifestyle as a goal in itself.

    In fact, I had a dual relationship with an ISFj sensory subtype, and she was far more interested in spending money on expensive restaurants than I was.

    As for the relating to point, I still don't see it but I'll think about it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Luxury restaurant?

    No way.

    I can be a bit lousy with money, but usually in buying useful/durable objects, especially hi-tech, books, and high quality clothes.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Or, in my case, books, DVDs, etc. Or even travel, but even then, the sensory experiences of comfortable hotels, expensive restaurants, etc, are at a very very low end in the scale of priorities.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Spending money

    To Expat:
    Aha, I understand her well, it is because a sensation seeking habitit can be different and for ISFJ it means to try new taste, sounds, new atmosphere and etc. Of course, it is all a bit of a joke, but if you are an ENTJ - you must like to experement and be optimistic on the whole, is it true? And what you like to experiment with?

    To Discojoe:

    I think my last post about hidden agenda is a reflection of what you said in your first post?:

    " It seems to me that the role function is a kind of corrective, parental function, that takes over when PoLR pressure or guilt transpires. For instance, my role function is , and when I feel like I am being lazy, my kicks in and tries to force me into a kind of tough love mentality with myself, and sort of kicks me out of the habit. However, I believe the real problem with causing my laziness is , and is simply a more pleasant way of dealing with the symptoms of my PoLR, without the pain of trying to cope with the weakness. Any pressure on the PoLR is very uncomfortable, and blaming it laziness, or lack of , instead of the real problem seems to be at least one of the uses of the role function (at least mine)".

    It seems also to me that hidden agenda plays kind of "protective" role by helping us to keep balance between what we do (second function) and what we have to do (the role function). Sorry that I repeat myself (Iam a boring rational type!): when we do too much on the second function - it somehow affects negatively our usual/comfortable rational or irrational (depending on what your first and forth/role functions) state/living mode. In this cases the weakest function signal to us that we might have done something wrong and here we start feel uncomfortable and as a result we don't want to do it again. The direction from the hidden agenda towards the second function: sort of - don't take too much on your shoulders... or any suggestions what kind of feeling it may create depending on what your second function is?

    On the other hand if we are getting lazy and think less about ourselves due to the weaknesses, the third/PolR function holds us actually back and we feel blue, passive and etc..because we think we shall not strong enough we shall not manage for whatever reason (depending on what the weak function is). Then the question arises what is hidden agenda which pushes us to overcome that negative impact from the weak function?
    If the weak function is the same as the hidden agenda that means it does two things at once: hit us on the head and demobilises us and at the same time shows us direction to go? Strange a bit.... These processes are not fully conscious - what is excatly going on?
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    Default Re: Spending money

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    To Expat:
    Aha, I understand her well, it is because a sensation seeking habitit can be different and for ISFJ it means to try new taste, sounds, new atmosphere and etc. Of course, it is all a bit of a joke, but if you are an ENTJ - you must like to experement and be optimistic on the whole, is it true? And what you like to experiment with?
    I understood that in her as a sensory ISFj as well; but, again, that is the very reason why I - and, I think, FDG - have difficulties seeing your ex-husband as ENTj. I don't think he was. Perhaps you could provide more information on him?

    I don't have an obviously optimistic personality or mood as a whole, I think this interpretation of ENTjs is misleading, in the sense that I'm certainly not of the "everything will work out in the end" type or always in an outwardly happy mood. My optimism is visible in my willingness to test the limits, take big risks, also financially, and try again if I have failed in something. Also in always trying to find solutions for problems, also of others. But since I'm also making contingency plans - "if this fails I'll have to do that" - which also means preparing for the worst, some people mistake that for being "pessimistic".

    As for experimenting, this is more regarding trying new jobs, new locations and new ways of doing things, or even new places and cultures, rather than new physical sensations.

    Again, it would be interesting to check whether your ex was ENTj because if he wasn't, actually you haven't experienced duality.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Spending money

    I don't have an obviously optimistic personality or mood as a whole, I think this interpretation of ENTjs is misleading, in the sense that I'm certainly not of the "everything will work out in the end" type or always in an outwardly happy mood.
    Yeah. Even if my mood is much more stable than the greatest majority of people, on a scale from 0 to 10 it almost never goes under 6

    optimism is visible in my willingness to test the limits, take big risks, also financially, and try again if I have failed in something. Also in always trying to find solutions for problems, also of others. But since I'm also making contingency plans - "if this fails I'll have to do that" - which also means preparing for the worst, some people mistake that for being "pessimistic".
    Exactly. I can't stand when people, just because I know from the start how to work my way out from a bad situation, think I'm pessimistic. Quite the contrary, actually. It's exactly the fact that I have always a solution that makes me optimistic.

    As for experimenting, this is more regarding trying new jobs, new locations and new ways of doing things, or even new places and cultures, rather than new physical sensations.
    I agree. Or new ideas, generally speaking.
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    Default He was

    My ex was definetly ENTJ and duality from the point of socionincs is illusion rather than reality. Just imagine that You have a health problem and one of the thearpy has got a magic solution and claims to be new, advanced, better than any known medicine. Would you believe in that?
    It would be silly to believe in things like that: it may work for some and will definetly not work for the others. I believe not in dualtiy but in destiny, no matter how much I know and what I do I am not a ruler of my life- I am more as explorer who tries to understand what is going on and why things happening this way and not the other.

    My ex was a traveller, he was bored by having the same hobbies and was buying good quality clothes like you do. He was most of the time al rgiht but from time to time he made scandals out of nothing as if he had just a need to argue. He was completely different person for a couple of days or so and then he was ok without me doing anything for it. It was like a bad wether from time to time. He was a good handy man - he could do nearly everything in the house and could do it out of nothing. He had his good sides, we are still friends and I am not here to criticise any type.
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    Default Re: He was

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    My ex was definetly ENTJ
    I can only base my conclusions on the information you provide, and so far, the more you tell about him, the less ENTj he seems to me. Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    and duality from the point of socionincs is illusion rather than reality.
    That has not been my experience, nor that of some other posters. You're generalizing with base on your own experience. Perhaps it was indeed a case where duality did not work. But can't you also consider the possibility that perhaps you mistyped him and it was not duality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Just imagine that You have a health problem and one of the thearpy has got a magic solution and claims to be new, advanced, better than any known medicine. Would you believe in that?
    I don't "believe" in anything without evidence. I do not "believe" in socionics or duality the way you choose to believe in "destiny".

    In the case of your example, I would believe in the "magic solution" if I saw enough evidence that it does work - not before. After all, when it was first released, even penicilin could be seen as "magic".

    Your analogy is flawed, based - apparently - on the assumption that I choose to "believe" in socionics or duality without any evidence. Since I became acquainted with it, I have aimed at constantly double-checking its theories against my observations of other people. So far it has worked very well, although one must be vigilant against circular thinking.

    In your case, if your ex was indeed ENTj and you are ISFj, then it would be an interesting example of duality not working. Personally I would find it very interesting. I have no agenda to want to "believe" otherwise.

    But the fact remains that, so far, my impression is that your ex was not an ENTj and that what you had was not duality. But I can only work with the information I have.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default To Expat

    I have got no intentions to convince or to argue the point - I see it as a pointless thing. Why? Different types have got different abilities to sense the type: some decide on the looks, some on the info provided by tests, the others may use spatial clues like mivements and etc...

    I am not the one o tell the type to the person, i usually try to give all available info and to waqit untill the person will be sure about his type.
    Duality is not just about socionics. You may meet your dual and find it hard to socialise based on many different reasons like: culture, age difference and etc.. O r you might meet not a dual but somebody who will have similar attitudes, life styles, preferences and would feel extremly comfortable with the person... The question will be what is duality in a first place? Is it a perfect match... well then it is much more to it than what socionincs suggest as ideal partner.

    If you are interested why some of the partnerships don't work with the socionic duality to be present then it is worth to open the mind in a first place and ask your questions - I got nothing to hide.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Olga,

    My reasoning was not along the lines "duality did not work, so obviously he wasn't ENTj". Not at all.

    It was your description of him - on its own merits - that makes me think he's not ENTj.

    Regardless of whether or not it was duality.

    I agree with some of your other points - I certainly don't think that socionic duality, alone, is enough to make a relationship work.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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