View Poll Results: Do you identify with the description?

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  • Yes

    7 30.43%
  • No

    2 8.70%
  • I am not LII (I am a retard - I don't even know why I'm answering this poll to be honest)

    14 60.87%
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Thread: ATTN INTjs LIIs do you identify with this description?

  1. #1
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default ATTN INTjs LIIs do you identify with this description?

    Ignoring the title, and actually reading the content, do you identify this description?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Completely, though I disagree with some of the function attributions. (for example, memorizing a sequence of events is Ni, not Si). But given a four function model, you work with what you've got.

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    Interesting.

    So Phaedrus identifies with that description.

    Elro (so I understood) identifies with it.

    And now tcaudilllg.

    Now we have a few possibilities:

    1) That description is very good, and all of the above are of the same type
    2) That description is very good, and one or more of the above were hasty in identifying with it
    3) That description sucks, so lots of people of different types could relate to it.

    I'm inclined to go for (3).
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Completely, though I disagree with some of the function attributions. (for example, memorizing a sequence of events is Ni, not Si). But given a four function model, you work with what you've got.
    I'm sorry tcaudilllg, but you simply cannot identify completely with that type description. You probably haven't studied it enough. It does not describe a person with an IJ temperament, which you must have if you are a LII. It describes a person with an IP temperament and an Objectivist world outlook -- not the Subjectivist outlook that a LII necessarily must have. In the Fe section of that profile we see the behaviour of a person with PoLR being described, etc.

    LIIs are not the providers of clarity -- that is simply not what they are focused at, and they are not very good at it either. Neither do LIIs seek the truth above else, and they don't believe that knowledge is the key to everything. Instead the LIIs tend to criticize the very notions of objective knowledge and and objective truth and focus more on meaning. LIIs are not lazy, and they do not believe that doing is of lower necessity than knowing, as is described in that profile.

    It is an obvious fact that people here are bad at comparing type descriptions. They identify with some parts of a description (there are always such parts that are almost identical in the descriptions of different types) but they ignore the parts that are in conflict their own type. A LII should realize that James's INTP description is not a description of a LII. I expect all of you "LIIs" to recognize that fact.

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    C'mon Expat, why'd you have to drag Phaedrus into our section of the forum?

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Now we have a few possibilities:

    1) That description is very good, and all of the above are of the same type
    2) That description is very good, and one or more of the above were hasty in identifying with it
    3) That description sucks, so lots of people of different types could relate to it.

    I'm inclined to go for (3).
    Bingo. It is a description that just about NT would be able to resonate with while reading. But MBTI sucks like that anyway.
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    yes i remember when i first read that i was like zomg

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    I am right on the line of the J/P functions.
    I am far more P in my relationships....or under stress.
    When I am freaking out over something important, I have come to realize I have my P on and am going to over analyze the heck out of things. It can be a curse sometimes, though generally I appreciate the 'pause' it creates in my decision making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    When you get too verbose with something, especially a type description, it's gets more likely to start sounding appealing...
    And it either goes in two directions: too narrow or too broad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I'm sorry tcaudilllg, but you simply cannot identify completely with that type description. You probably haven't studied it enough. It does not describe a person with an IJ temperament, which you must have if you are a LII. It describes a person with an IP temperament and an Objectivist world outlook -- not the Subjectivist outlook that a LII necessarily must have. In the Fe section of that profile we see the behaviour of a person with PoLR being described, etc.

    LIIs are not the providers of clarity -- that is simply not what they are focused at, and they are not very good at it either. Neither do LIIs seek the truth above else, and they don't believe that knowledge is the key to everything. Instead the LIIs tend to criticize the very notions of objective knowledge and and objective truth and focus more on meaning. LIIs are not lazy, and they do not believe that doing is of lower necessity than knowing, as is described in that profile.

    It is an obvious fact that people here are bad at comparing type descriptions. They identify with some parts of a description (there are always such parts that are almost identical in the descriptions of different types) but they ignore the parts that are in conflict their own type. A LII should realize that James's INTP description is not a description of a LII. I expect all of you "LIIs" to recognize that fact.
    The problem with your assertion, Phaedrus, is that only INTjs use words "like swords". That's 7th function -Te at work, and I do it all the time.

    The bottom line is, does Model-B not imply everything in that passage as true for LIIs? The answer is yes, it does.

    Another description:
    http://users.viawest.net/~keirsey/PUMintp.html

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    And it either goes in two directions: too narrow or too broad.
    To me that description manages to go in both directions.

    It's too narrow in that it actually writes at length, in a tiresome way, about how the functions are supposed to manifest themselves; but it does so by saying the same things over and over. And it's too broad in that it goes for the thing about preferences in music and the like.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The problem with your assertion, Phaedrus, is that only INTjs use words "like swords". That's 7th function -Te at work, and I do it all the time.
    That is just a detail, and in order to see which type is being portrayed in that type description we simply have to look at the overall picture while at the same time comparing details between INTJ and INTP type profiles in MBTT. If I would have read only INTJ type descriptions and was not aware of the existence of INTP type descriptions, my reaction would be very similar to some people's here. They INTJ and INTP type profiles are much more similar to each other than they are different, and that's exactly why tyou have to scrutinize them in depth in order to see which type they are referring to. I spent at least a couple of months before I came to a definite conclusion about the nature and differences beteen INTPs and INTJs. I'm pretty sure that no one else on this forum has studied type profiles as much as I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    The bottom line is, does Model-B not imply everything in that passage as true for LIIs? The answer is yes, it does.
    Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    In that particular type description we see a clear Objectivist world outlook, and a clearly accentuated IP temperament. It is not a description of an INTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    To me that description manages to go in both directions.

    It's too narrow in that it actually writes at length, in a tiresome way, about how the functions are supposed to manifest themselves; but it does so by saying the same things over and over. And it's too broad in that it goes for the thing about preferences in music and the like.
    Yes, and there is an explanation for that: the profile is definitely written by an ILI.

  14. #14
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    The reason I posted this was because Phaedrus said that no LII could possibly identify with this description.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The reason I posted this was because Phaedrus said that no LII could possibly identify with this description.
    Phaedrus is a liar. Of course he's going to attempt to cover up his lies by saying that those LIIs who identify with the description are obviously mistyped. He is an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The reason I posted this was because Phaedrus said that no LII could possibly identify with this description.
    I haven't said that no LII could possibly identify with it. I have said that no LII should identify with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    Phaedrus is a liar. Of course he's going to attempt to cover up his lies by saying that those LIIs who identify with the description are obviously mistyped. He is an idiot.
    They are not necessarily mistyped. But they are necessarily misidentifying it as a description of the LII type in Socionics. It is totally obvious that Paul James is himself an ILI, and that his INTP profile is a description of the ILI type to a much greater extent than it is a description of the LII type. And everyone must recognize that fact.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Ignoring the title, and actually reading the content, do you identify this description?
    Too many problems in that description. I think it should be thrown away and started over.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Too many problems in that description. I think it should be thrown away and started over.
    Can you specify some of the problems you see in that description? Rather than throwing the whole description away, I think we should try to understand the exact resons why different types identify with it. I am sure we can learn something important about Socionics from it. And it is still a fact that James is an ILI and that that description fits the ILI type better than any other type, so how can so many other types incorrectly identify with it?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Can you specify some of the problems you see in that description? Rather than throwing the whole description away, I think we should try to understand the exact resons why different types identify with it. I am sure we can learn something important about Socionics from it. And it is still a fact that James is an ILI and that that description fits the ILI type better than any other type, so how can so many other types incorrectly identify with it?
    Is James an ILI?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Is James an ILI?
    Yes, that is what I claim that he is. He wouldn't have written it in the way he did if he wasn't an ILI, and I can see clearly that he is the same type as I am myself. So, he simply must be an ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Yes, that is what I claim that he is. He wouldn't have written it in the way he did if he wasn't an ILI, and I can see clearly that he is the same type as I am myself. So, he simply must be an ILI.
    What way did he write it? How is it ILI?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    What way did he write it? How is it ILI?
    You don't answer my questions. What problems do you see with the description? How is it not ILI? I have already given an example in this thread of an aspect, pointed out by Expat, of how it is written, and that aspect is in itself an indication of ILI. Compare with how people perceive what I write as repeating the same thing(s) over and over again.

    It is a real problem that people don't immediately recognize that type description as portraying an ILI, because it seems to prove that people don't know how to read a type description. Now, try to explain why you are not convinced that it is an ILI description,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    Phaedrus is a liar. Of course he's going to attempt to cover up his lies by saying that those LIIs who identify with the description are obviously mistyped. He is an idiot.
    +1,000

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    That description is a bit overwhelming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    That description is a bit overwhelming.
    How? So everyone agrees with me now, is that it? Otherwise you have to show why you can't see James's description as ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    How? So everyone agrees with me now, is that it? Otherwise you have to show why you can't see James's description as ILI.
    You're a loony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    You're a loony.
    And still neither you nor anyone else have presented any counter arguments, so I guess I am right as usual. James is an ILI, and his description does not fit the correctly typed LIIs on this forum, even though some of them incorrectly think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    And still neither you nor anyone else have presented any counter arguments, so I guess I am right as usual. James is an ILI, and his description does not fit the correctly typed LIIs on this forum, even though some of them incorrectly think so.
    No. I just know how to spend my time efficiently, and arguing with you is not one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    How? So everyone agrees with me now, is that it? Otherwise you have to show why you can't see James's description as ILI.
    This discription could definitely describe me, and I'm pretty certain I'm not an INTp.
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    No. I just know how to spend my time efficiently, and arguing with you is not one of them.
    Another irrelevant comment ... and no argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    This discription could definitely describe me, and I'm pretty certain I'm not an INTp.
    But it doesn't describe your type if you are not an INTp. So you seem to be a poor reader of type descriptions. You don't understand them correctly. Which means that what you say here is of no use to the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Another irrelevant comment ... and no argument.
    Good point. I have no argument. I am an ILI now. Deal with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    But it doesn't describe your type if you are not an INTp. So you seem to be a poor reader of type descriptions. You don't understand them correctly. Which means that what you say here is of no use to the discussion.
    You and whose army say this? I've been studying such descriptions before you were even born.
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    Hey cool, that description explains some things.

    From the 2nd paragraph of the "Extraverted Intuition" section:

    an INTP will often make controversial, speculative points of argument, often annoying the discussion-partner, and make them in such a way as to leave the impression that he is very serious about what he says. In reality, the INTP is not actually even certain himself whether he really stands by what he is saying, but his Ne strongly suggests that there must be a core of truth there. The purpose then of his outspoken style of argument is to sharpen his own intuitive understanding by testing the reaction of the listener, and indeed to examine the logic of his own arguments in real time while speaking them out.
    And from the 6th paragraph of the same section:

    The chameleon behaviour can be particularly strong when discussing something. The INTP may even argue something that he doesn't really believe himself. Sometimes it is for the intellectual stimulation that comes with the challenge of arguing from a variety of standpoints. Otherwise, it may be to avoid early conflict before the situation has been fully assessed.
    What a relief, so Phaedrus doesn't really mean it when he argues so strongly for some points. That's the case, isn't it, since Paul James's description perfectly describes Phaedrus, doesn't it?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Good point. I have no argument. I am an ILI now. Deal with it.
    Ooh, valuing! How exciting!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ooh, valuing! How exciting!
    This is the new and improved ILI Logos you are seeing here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    No. I just know how to spend my time efficiently, and arguing with [Phaedrus] is not one of them.
    Indeed, look how ridiculous the discussion gets. Phaedrus makes no better case for James's description being one that only ILIs should correctly identify with than that he, Phaedrus, identifies with it. That's his very convenient, and easy, "argument". And we're supposed to prove that he's wrong.

    I think that description is contradictory, and a lot of what it says is a lot of -- nothing. It's easy to get lost in it. However, why bother?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Good point. I have no argument. I am an ILI now. Deal with it.
    Okay. You are an idiot then. An idiot without arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    You and whose army say this? I've been studying such descriptions before you were even born.
    No, you haven't. And even if you were, you didn't understand anything.

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