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Thread: Functions at war/dreams

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    Default Functions at war/dreams

    The functions at war /dreams Part 1

    In this article I would like to continue to talk about the war between the functions in order to bring some new evidence which supports the original idea expressed in my posts (and my article about ISTP type on the www.the 16types.info) that for the rational/judging types it will be more difficult to decide about the dominance of feeling vs. thinking and the opposite will be true for perceiving/rational types. This idea is in disagreement with the Ganin’s article, who suggests the opposite- that for the rational type it will be the greater difficulty to decide about the dominance of their sensing /intuition because according to Ganin, those functions are at war for rational types. I suggested that the opposite is true and would like to argue the point that the real war is not between Auxiliary and Tertiary functions (the second/creative and the third/weakest functions which is also represents hidden agenda in the Ganin’s article) but between the first/base/dominant function and the fourth/role/inferior function. I would like also to share my ideas/thoughts about the opposition between rational/judging and irrational/perceiving functions.

    If by any chance I repeat something what has been already known or said by somebody regarding this topic of discussion, I would like apologize in advance. My intention is to share my thoughts and ideas which has not been translated from any book. However, if you find my thoughts as old and well known ones, you are welcome to criticise me or better give me the reference to any particular article….

    Before I move to discussion I would like to explain that the talk here will be mainly about the first four functions and the blocs of EGO and SUPEREGO. For example, for INTJ it will be:
    Where

    1 - .- is introverted thinking/ structural logic
    2.- - is extraverted intuition/intuition of hidden abilities
    3.- - is extraverted sensing/ willpower/power to push
    4.- - is introverted ethics/ ethics of relationships/morality

    In Ganin’s article they are named as Dominant (1), Auxiliary (2), Tertiary (3) and Inferior (4). The article written by Ganin can be found on: http://www.socionincs.com/advan/howto.htm):

    In the model A, the third weakest function is number 4, that is probably why it is called tertiary. However, I am not going to consider the model A here so I will refer to the weakest function as a third/weakest/hidden agenda.

    According to Ganin, if a person's Auxiliary and Tertiary functions are Feeling and Thinking (or Thinking and Feeling), then such person find it hard to keep these two in peace and may find it difficult to decide whether they are F or T. For example, consider INTP or ISFP type. The Dominant and Inferior in this case would be Sensing and Intuition (or Intuition and Sensing), and should be quite easy to separate. Further, Ganin suggests that if a person's Auxiliary and Tertiary functions are Sensing and Intuition (or Intuition and Sensing), for example, rational types like ISFJ or ENTJ , then such person may find it difficult to keep these two in friendship and may find it hard to decide whether they are S or N. The Dominant and Inferior in this case would be Feeling and Thinking (or Thinking and Feeling), and should be quite easy to divide.

    I disagree with this position and suggest the opposite.
    Functions which are easier to separate should be Auxiliary and Tertiary. Why? Because, I believe that it is easier to say what you are definetly not that what you actually are. The weakest function should be evident more than your dominant one. The problem is with the way the functions defined in the test when you try to determine your type. May be it is easier firstly to offer a good definition of what each function means and to ask them to rate themselves - how strongly they feel on those functions instead of asking numerous questions?
    For example, for those who have intuition as a weakest function the concern will be about time, development in time, prediction, potential abilities of objects/people, the six sense, poetic/composing creativity and etc…or to ask something like: Where do you see yourself in 10 years? How quickly you decide about what the person /object can or cannot do/offer? How often you buy/guess things on a spur of the moment and the are good/right?

    On the other hand, it should be more difficult to say about functions that are obviously evident and strongly represented in the type. While traditionally the first two functions (base/first and creative/second functions) are considered as strong ones, I would argue that the fourth (third in socionincs)/role function can be in reality not less stronger than the first/dominant and is strong enough to make a war to the first one. Why? Because this is a function of your highest ambition which is directly associated with the interest of the first function and directed/limited by it (e.g. ISTP functions: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic-1793.html)
    For example, INTJ is thinking/logical type but the morals/relationships extremely important for him/her, although they do not rush to show it off. They are devoted friends and partners. However, due to their first function - logical thinking their morals will be qualitatively different from the morals of the ethical types. Logical morals can be associated with theoretical relativism while ethical morals with the theory defining principles. The difference in the morals between the logical type A and the ethical type B can be found in the books written by Dr. J.Gibbs, L.Kohlberg and other prominent psychologists.

    The fourth function, I will call it function of ambition, can be as weak as we allow it to be or as strong as we wish it to be. This is the function of learning process by free will. Something which was not given to you for granted and you have to put enough effort if you want to achieve a lot. I would suggest, that it is important for your happiness and spiritual growth. It is a direction of development and improvement. If you don’t work on this function - you stagnate or get depressed. The task is to achieve balance and agreement between the first and the fourth function, but not the war between them.
    The fourth function is directed and limited by the first function but is driven by the third/weakest function. The weakest function is the area of your major concerns and fears. For example, if you are worried about time, being at time, future , predictions…that could be a sign of weakest intuition. Your weakest intuition needs support and direction of the support is not towards the second or first function but towards the fourth function. As if the weakest function activates the fourth/ambition/role function: Come on, do something about it, I am worried! Depending on what the fourth function is the person tries to excel in that area.

    Why the third/weakest function demands support from the fourth/role function but not the others?

    To explain this, we shall consider only two first of the four blocs: EGO, SUPEREGO, SUPERID, ID. The first and the second functions constitute the bloc EGO, the weakest and the role functions SUPEREGO. Functions work in teams. Superego is responsible for your hard work in life, something you have to do and this is not a surprise that you fears of failure will be in this block. However, here is also the direction to take - your fourt/role function.
    The failures you fear will be specific and associated with the interest of your dominant function or EGO block - it will be not any fears but in areas which are most important for you. This is easy to demonstrate by considering the topics of your fearful re -occuring dreams/nightmares (if you have some?). Reoccuring nightmares, in my opinion, should be associated with something you do/care a lot in your counshious/real life.

    For example, INTJ might dream about the failure at work/business, he is in embarrassing situation and feels powerless to do anything. He wakes up, feeling stressed, he wants to get rid of these disturbing feelings, needs reassurance and wants to feel good and happy about himself. He feels weak and needs to strenghen his psychological stamina. His weak will sensing drives his spirit to be stronger - that’s the way to success! Does he need anything else, any failures with intellectual power? Of course not, brain are working well, the dominant and creative functions (block EGO)take responsibility that intellectual functioning is in a good order and the work on them is more fun than hard work. Just don’t allow yourself to get carry away with it…..there are more powerful reasons for you to be here - work on your weak points and create balancing between EGO and SUPEREGO.

    This is the end of part 1. More dream ananlysis come in the part 2.

    Critics are much appreciated!

    [/u]
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    That's an interesting perspective. I also agree but for a different reason - It seems that a person will place high value on their role/suggestive functions so it is possible that a person will confuse their strengths with their values.

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    Default Competition/war

    I would like to add a correction. It seems to me that I have at last understood what Ganin meant by war between second and third/ PolR function. I doesn't mean though that what I said previouslyI do not consider as true. I am going to continue this topic later.

    At the moment, I would like to consider the relationship between your second and third functions. I explain how I have come to realize where the problem is. I know that I often feel drained after I use my extraverted functions (ISFJ . As an introvert I am much happier when I just use my introverted functions : I like to read or to study, to work in the garden and etc. I feel ok in a crowd where nobody cares about you. However, when I use my too much - take initiative, say something what i think is right, I often feel low and cannot understand why... As if i can stand by my words!
    If you consider my weakest function is extraverted intuition- feeling danger coming up to me from the outside world. It can be that subcounshiously I am worried about the consequences of what I did while using I cannot predict the consequences in time and i also cannot know the exact impact as I don't know the people that well
    When I use I do not think about consequences or impact -I am very direct in what I say and use very simple langauge which may irritate some people. Then I feel not good and don't know even why! If this is to be called the war between second and third functions - let it be this way.
    Then I would use the word competition considering what I said previously abut the interaction between the first and the last functions.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    I have moved on a bit since I wrote this article.

    The articles by Ganinas as well mine lay the foundation of the theory of interfunctional relationships. The theory does not exist yet but it will be written one day. If we suggest that there are intertype relationships then is is logical to believe there should be relationships between functions.

    As you know, it is believed that type does not change and this is according to Jung as well. However, not everyone thinks this way. The differences within one type group suggest that type can have different emphasis or subtype or quality of any other type - according to Talanov's model.

    I have recently wrote an article about the development of intertype abilities and post it on one of the rusiian forums. There was no comments to it. I will translate it sometime soon and posted here on the forum.

    Regarding the development of my theory - there were two recent ones:

    1. The subdivision of aspects.

    I suggest that rationality and irrationality as well as extraversion and introversion are the basic dichotomies. I divide furhter each aspect as follows:

    Logics: formal (true) logics and ethical logics.

    Ethics: formal (true) ethics and logical ethics.

    Sensorics: formal (true) sensorics and intuitive sensorics.

    Intuition: formal (true) intuition and sensorical intuition.

    This division si not yet supporte by real life examples, but the idea is simple. The dominanat and the role functions are the two wings of a bird (called the psyche). If you are irrational person, you balance yourself on the dichotomy of irrational functions intuition and sensorics or sensorics and intuition. This is what makes you truly irational person and differentiates you from the rational person. the same is true for rational people who balance themselves on the dichotomy of ratinal functions logics and ethics.

    That means I call rational ethical types as ethical logics and rational logical types as logical ethics. This seems odd at first sound. Why I do that? The reason is partly ethical in nature. We have not clear logical or ethical types between the rational types but normal distribution where some people can be more logical or more ethical. However thiwer logics or ethics will be qualitativelly different. So we can call ethical philiosophers as true ethics or ethical logics. We can call scientists those who create theories~discoveries in exact science) as true logics or logical ethics. the majority of people fall inbetween.

    The same thing about intuition - sensorics. It is not true to compare the sensorics of intuits and say it is weak. It is not weak - it is different from true sensorics. This is sensorics which serves the best purpose of intuition. Intuitive sensorics - is qualitatively different form true sensorics as described by functions.


    The ethical meaning of this position is that we do not pretend to be sensorics, intuits, logics or ethics on the role function - we truly are. However we should not compare the content of the role function with the content of the same base function, because the two contents will be different in nature and but could be similar in form(Judgement or perceipton). For example, the sensorics of ESFP will be yellow, the sensorics of ESTP -gold. However the sensorics of INFP - will be yellow -green. The sensorics of INFP will be yellow-orange. I used the colours just as an example.

    2. Statics -Dynamics dichotomy.
    I have come to refer the rational introverts as base static types and irrational introverts as base dynamic types. I see statics as attached to the introverted judgement and block Superego and dynamics as introverted perceiving and block Superid. I will write more about it in a separate article later.

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    Jung says there are four functions. He says the primary has an auxiliary and the inferior an auxiliary. That would seem to mean that given the primary auxiliary is the secondary, the inferior auxiliary is the tertiary/third.

    Otherwise it's simply not intuitive.

    I'm quite certain that the notion of the Jungian third function as the socionics PoLR is incorrect. (This after studying virtually all of the material Jung published on the subject, not all of which is contained in Psychological Types. This is an error that diverges MBTI -- which originally propounded the idea of the third as "PoLR" -- from Socionics validity-wise. At no point does Jung ever say that the third function is dangerous, or even weak. Indeed, for the inferior to have an auxiliary at all it must choose the function of the opposite temperament and class. (extrovert vs introvert, rational vs. irrational) The inferior anima thus allows access to the treasure that is difficult to attain, just as the 5th function in socionics is the means by which the 6th function's demands are met.

    The question as regards competing theories of typology is, where do the descriptions describe the same, absolute structure? The points where they are similar are mutually representative of the underlying structure. It is at those points where they diverge that we must ask ourselves which structure has greater validity. Invariably, we should as a matter of reason choose the most valid descriptions of the structures with which we are faced.

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    so what would this mean for each and every personality type? can we have a chart or list or something?
    enf/tp
    7w8

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