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Thread: Introverted sensing: differences between Si PoLR and Si Role

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    Default Introverted sensing: differences between Si PoLR and Si Role

    You mean EIEs and IEIs, right?

    Havn't got much to say but thought I'd add these:
    Quote Originally Posted by wikisocion EIE
    Introverted sensing

    The EIE is more likely to measure the comfortableness of conversation than other more physiological signs. Still, they are quite attuned to the the physical sensations others are experiencing and use the information to raise and lower the emotional conditions that those individuals are experiencing.

    The EIE has little respect for people who seem to be too concerned with their health and comfort and who avoid straining themselves. The EIE feels that people who focus too much on caring for themselves will have no time to achieve anything worthwhile.

    The EIE will feel empty and restless if he is in a situation where he is expected to just chill out and have a good time; he would feel that this undermines his devotion to realizing his abstract visions. He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wikisocion IEI
    Introverted sensing

    IEIs will often have extremely picky tastes, and will not try new things when a stimulus that has been enjoyed in the past is available. They tend to be unaware to the sensations that are occurring in their body, and thus try to create a consistent, simple way of dealing with this area to minimize the attention they must give to it. They may enjoy good food, but will typically not know when to stop, or, to the other extreme, may not realize when they are hungry. It is not infrequent for an INFp to have a messy living space, although this simply may reflect the organizational style they prefer most. IEIs can become very pedantic about certain things.
    I'll go now.

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    Yeah I have "worked on" some Si issues. But the default is always letting it fall by the wayside. For example, cooking. I dislike it generally. Takes too much time and the food is gone so quickly. Plus I'm pretty happy with a bowl of cereal. But I work on this because I have a family so I try to find new recipes and figure out new things I can feed them that will be healthy or whatever. But the minute I'm by myself, I go back to eating toast or leftovers (there is nothing better than leftovers) or whatever I can find that's easy. Cheese and crackers and fruit.

    In the area of health, I feel like I know what I need--when I'm sick and/or uncomfortable and I generally can take care of it. But when it comes to other people, I have little patience. I expect them to know what their needs are (I mean, other adults, not my kids) and take care of it on their own. I probably wouldn't do very well with someone who needed a lot of caregiving. I'd be a terrible nurse.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Perhaps a manifestation of Si PoLR in my LIE roommate was her ability to treat her body as a machine, especially when it came to depriving herself of sleep in order to get work done. She would have an uncanny ability to nap for an hour, or half-hour in the middle of the night and then get back to work, without much caffeine at all. She would crash eventually of course, but only after the limitted sleeping had accumulated. This ignoring of the need for sleep really did not seem to require excessive effort for her. She'd say if she needed to get something done that night, then she'd just do it. I'm the one hitting snooze on my alarm clock three times each morning. If I tried that (say sleep 2-3am then get back up), I would usually fail to get up and would need to avoid sleep altogether until my work was done.

    I would say that intraverted sensing matters (sleep, fitness, aesthetics of my surroundings) are a background noise that I might focus on when I have few other concerns, or which becomes insistent if neglected. The LIE friend was more likely to approach these things with a coldly businesslike matter, ignoring what didn't impede her from functioning, or hitting a crisis point when she would feel she had to address them, followed by a flurry of activity.
    ILI

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    ¿Qué es la vida? Una ilusión;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolda Biloruka View Post
    Perhaps a manifestation of Si PoLR in my LIE roommate was her ability to treat her body as a machine, especially when it came to depriving herself of sleep in order to get work done. She would have an uncanny ability to nap for an hour, or half-hour in the middle of the night and then get back to work, without much caffeine at all. She would crash eventually of course, but only after the limitted sleeping had accumulated. This ignoring of the need for sleep really did not seem to require excessive effort for her. She'd say if she needed to get something done that night, then she'd just do it. I'm the one hitting snooze on my alarm clock three times each morning. If I tried that (say sleep 2-3am then get back up), I would usually fail to get up and would need to avoid sleep altogether until my work was done.

    I would say that intraverted sensing matters (sleep, fitness, aesthetics of my surroundings) are a background noise that I might focus on when I have few other concerns, or which becomes insistent if neglected. The LIE friend was more likely to approach these things with a coldly businesslike matter, ignoring what didn't impede her from functioning, or hitting a crisis point when she would feel she had to address them, followed by a flurry of activity.
    Yeah, I have seen a LIE woman doing that. Personally, that always looked crazy to me: sleep is very different from being aestethically pleasant. If I don't sleep well for a day I am cranky, full of aches and generally don't feel good. Perhaps this could be a point against LIE, I don't know. Interestingly, I used to fight with this girl a lot: we both attended a cycling forum and she would often hold controversial positions such as "overtraining doesn't exist because in the past we used to work 10 hours a day" or "you can race even if you've slept nothing that night, after all it's just one night out of many". Crazy.

    My philosophy for caring about details in my environment goes like this: if I have time and there is nothing else more urgent, more profitable, more pleasurable than taking care of minute details in my environment, I will do it. This clearly means that it doesn't really get done often at all.

    Actually I'd say I perfectly relate to this:

    there's no use having goals if i lose my sanity. relax, cut back -- and i can modify the goals once i've gotten reoriented.
    With a slight modification, that is I try to choose activities that will not make me lose my sanity.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    The EIE is more likely to measure the comfortableness of conversation than other more physiological signs. Still, they are quite attuned to the the physical sensations others are experiencing and use the information to raise and lower the emotional conditions that those individuals are experiencing.

    The EIE has little respect for people who seem to be too concerned with their health and comfort and who avoid straining themselves. The EIE feels that people who focus too much on caring for themselves will have no time to achieve anything worthwhile.

    The EIE will feel empty and restless if he is in a situation where he is expected to just chill out and have a good time; he would feel that this undermines his devotion to realizing his abstract visions. He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.


    This is very very very true, especially, "He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.". I wonder if any EIE can agree with this.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

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    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    yeah i would like to understand Si better when it's in the role and polr position.

    somebody said that role function is like, "do i hafta do this??" but then you kinda do it.

    lately i've been thinking about Si/Se more holistically. like, my sle-ex, was actually pretty good at Si. he had to kinda stretch into his unconscious, but i think he did a decent job of meeting my needs for Si. like, he came over the other day and fixed my mailbox post which had been wiggling in the ground, then attached a new mailbox. it made me feel so much better. he tried to fuck with me about it a little bit like i should have an orgasm or something because he did it, or get on my knees and pray to the god of fix-it, but i just ignore that. but anyway, regarding the holistic piece, i think Si/Se is just more in touch with sensory details of reality. Ne/Ni is more in the clouds.

    infpman fixed my car last weekend, but it was like he felt like he had to. it wasn't like a free thing, like i'm happy to do this for you since i know it makes you happy. i was almost like i'd rather not have you do it then, since the way he felt about it kinda wrecked it; like i don't want to put somebody in a position where they feel like they hafta do things they don't want to do. i guess this is my role Se. i don't like having to force people to do things. i'd rather persuade than force.

    i suppose i could transform my view a little, like if he is willing to do something for me that he hates doing, then i should just shut up and appreciate that.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    yeah i would like to understand Si better when it's in the role and polr position.

    somebody said that role function is like, "do i hafta do this??" but then you kinda do it.

    lately i've been thinking about Si/Se more holistically. like, my sle-ex, was actually pretty good at Si. he had to kinda stretch into his unconscious, but i think he did a decent job of meeting my needs for Si. like, he came over the other day and fixed my mailbox post which had been wiggling in the ground, then attached a new mailbox. it made me feel so much better. he tried to fuck with me about it a little bit like i should have an orgasm or something because he did it, or get on my knees and pray to the god of fix-it, but i just ignore that. but anyway, regarding the holistic piece, i think Si/Se is just more in touch with sensory details of reality. Ne/Ni is more in the clouds.

    infpman fixed my car last weekend, but it was like he felt like he had to. it wasn't like a free thing, like i'm happy to do this for you since i know it makes you happy. i was almost like i'd rather not have you do it then, since the way he felt about it kinda wrecked it; like i don't want to put somebody in a position where they feel like they hafta do things they don't want to do. i guess this is my role Se. i don't like having to force people to do things. i'd rather persuade than force.

    i suppose i could transform my view a little, like if he is willing to do something for me that he hates doing, then i should just shut up and appreciate that.
    I totally get what you're saying. Attitude does make a difference. I'm guilty of doing things for my husband begrudgingly and it's not good. But that said, it's really hard for us INFps to do little chores like that. So the fact that he's doing it is a good sign. He must really like ya. lol I do know what you mean though. It feels so much better when the person doing you the favor is happy to do it. I completely agree. btw, I find it kind of charming that your ex will do things like that for you.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I totally get what you're saying. Attitude does make a difference. I'm guilty of doing things for my husband begrudgingly and it's not good. But that said, it's really hard for us INFps to do little chores like that. So the fact that he's doing it is a good sign. He must really like ya. lol I do know what you mean though. It feels so much better when the person doing you the favor is happy to do it. I completely agree. btw, I find it kind of charming that your ex will do things like that for you.
    yeah i think my ex was feeling kinda bad for me since me and infpman had broken up that weekend, esp since his life is all sorted out. mine kind of isn't. at least not yet. i mean, financially things are on track but i probably have to find another job....and me and infpman aren't that close to making a permanent commitment either. so i'm still up in the air - he probably feels a little bit guilty, too. i think he kind of misses how we used to joke around together, we had this like black humor, and in some ways i'm a lot less prissy than his girlfriend is. funny, when he was fixing the mailbox and the faucet, we were like a well oiled machine, me getting the tools and stuff he needed without even saying a word and then him just digging in and getting it done. i guess what i am saying is that lookalike relations, esp between entp-estp are pretty good. we used to be able to accomplish a lot together. the fatal flaw from a socionics point of view is in the Fi polr that both people have. it's like neither one has any idea of what to do to have a relationship. lol. but yeah it is cool that he helps - i don't really ask him to do very much, though, honestly, and if it were something big like the roof i'd pay him.

    infpman is a fix it guy, too, he fixes cars. lol i love that. i was thinking that when he or my ex fix stuff it fulfills Si dual seeking. but i never saw that anywhere in socionics or anything. but it does make me feel totally safe. it's funny though, after the fixing of the car, it was almost like infpman felt like he could do what he wanted then. he slept most of the day, almost no talk, then the next day took off and spent time with his cousin, then for the next two days after that, we didn't talk much on the phone, when we usually do. so it me this feels a little bit awkward. almost like he thinks he's fulfilled an obligation, now he gets to do what he wants. which is ok i suppose, but it's like all of a sudden things are different with no explanation. all which does not make me feel safe.

    ok so i guess the point here for the thread is that when people have to use their role function, they kind of resent it.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post

    ok so i guess the point here for the thread is that when people have to use their role function, they kind of resent it.
    Yeah I think that when people FORCE me to use it and it's not my idea, I resent it. But if it's my doing, then it's great! (ugh, I'm awful that way)

    I felt really sad reading your paragraph about your ex. Just like you know, life is hard and stuff happens but I wish he hadn't screwed it up for your family. Life isn't a fairy tale but I don't think lookalike relations are that bad either.

    I'll bet INFp guy is fine, just taking some time to himself. It might be one of those hot-cold things where he has to regroup. Like the nursery rhyme says "leave him alone and he'll come home, wagging his tail behind him" (whoa, what a weird thing to pop into my head! LOL)
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Yeah I think that when people FORCE me to use it and it's not my idea, I resent it. But if it's my doing, then it's great! (ugh, I'm awful that way)

    I felt really sad reading your paragraph about your ex. Just like you know, life is hard and stuff happens but I wish he hadn't screwed it up for your family. Life isn't a fairy tale but I don't think lookalike relations are that bad either.

    I'll bet INFp guy is fine, just taking some time to himself. It might be one of those hot-cold things where he has to regroup. Like the nursery rhyme says "leave him alone and he'll come home, wagging his tail behind him" (whoa, what a weird thing to pop into my head! LOL)
    i get this...when your role function stuff is your own idea, that's great, but otherwise you kinda feel like naaah. do i have to?

    yeah me and the ex...it is really sad. in a way, his having had an affair is the ultimate example of his Fi polr. i'm sure he would blame me for that...like i became so distant and focused on work and awkward in relationships that we had with other people. i'm sure he used this data to justify his plans and behavior. and remember, once sle gets a goal in their mind (divorce) they absolutely do not give up until they get it. no matter what they have to do to get there, they do. having said that, i'm not sure he was paying much attention to Ni related stuff when he took these actions. as in how things would really be in the end. i think overall he is in a much worse position than if he had worked it out with me.

    but yeah infpman is just in the man-vortex i'm sure. hey, what kind of stuff would activate his Se dual seeking, do you think?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    as far as the role function goes -- Ni base ignores Ne, so i'm not sure if you guys do the "goal-reinvention" as much as i am willing to do. from the description there -- it sounds as if the Si gets integrated into the goals, as a goal itself. since IP temperament isn't typically trying to do as much as other temperaments in the here and now -- I could see how that could be more feasible for IP. not sure how well this translates into your actual question, but that's how i've been thinking about weak Si recently.
    Big nod there.

    I'm always putting off til tomorrow what I *should* do today. I also have these lofty notions of being organized "... one day". Of course that "one day" never seems to arrive, but eh... there's always something else less tedious to focus on. Like anything, I have some wonderful out-of-the-gate ideas that sprint a few metres, but ultimately don't shape into anything substantial. (I really loathe self-discipline.)

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    For example, cooking. I dislike it generally. Takes too much time and the food is gone so quickly. Plus I'm pretty happy with a bowl of cereal. But I work on this because I have a family so I try to find new recipes and figure out new things I can feed them that will be healthy or whatever. But the minute I'm by myself, I go back to eating toast or leftovers (there is nothing better than leftovers) or whatever I can find that's easy. Cheese and crackers and fruit.
    As far as is concerned... I really consider myself an epicure... so I rather love cooking, food, exotic ingredients, fresh ingredients, tasting new combinations of flavors, and am always on the lookout for an interesting and novel "thing" to add to my aesthetic repertoire. It does seem I might be more attached to the idea of epicurean pursuit, because I'm not at all practical nor methodical going about it. I get frustrated with my inability to organize and be efficient while cooking. And cleaning up, I'd rather not... but I love the end result as a work of masterful creativity and a pleasurable experience of sensations. Most often, I achieve exactly the recipe I was aiming for and anticipate accurately that I enjoy it immensely as well. I can also adapt recipes to more closely suit my own purposes and tastes.

    But I'm not patient. And easily frustrated. Shrieking in the kitchen is fairly commonplace.

    Sometimes, though, eating is more an annoyance, because I either don't know what I want exactly, am not in the frame of mind to undertake the process, or simply don't have time to spend on a long process. Grabbing something to eat never pleases me. I don't at all like rushing through a meal or otherwise just settling for something quick. At that point, eating is simply inconvenient. I've gotten very fixated on the idea that every meal should be savored.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

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    @esper: yeah i see what you mean about asking people to do things. he fixes his ex's car and his daughter's car routinely. it's what he does for a living! he first noticed my car needed brakes....and an inspection....i said wow do you think you could help? he said well i could but how would we get your car there? i said well you could take my car for the day, on saturday i don't need it. !!! i don't really know why i'm saying this except for the fact that it wasn't like i needled him about it or anything.

    i'm gonna play this the whole way through just for the exercise. previous to the car thing, i had been reminding him to do his taxes. he kept putting it off. then one day he says, can you pick up a turbo tax for me? i say sure and i get the turbo tax. then i offer to do his taxes, i keep saying bring your tax stuff over i'll just do it for you i don't mind. april 15 comes and goes. but anyway, while he fixing the car, i'm supposed to do his taxes finally. so i go to do it, but my computer won't let me because i already loaded a turbo tax for my taxes and the whole thing won't work. so i said bring your laptop over and i'll do your taxes on your computer. but he said, no he would just do them.

    i don't know i'm just saying this because it's not like i never do anything for him you know? like he doesn't like to cook that much, so i cook these great meals since i don't really mind. he doesn't shop for stuff he needs very well (spends too much money out of convenience) so i pick stuff up for him all the time.

    then again i did say wanna help me paint the kitchen.....wtf.....this gets to be really funny when you look at it that way.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    @esper: yeah i see what you mean about asking people to do things. he fixes his ex's car and his daughter's car routinely. it's what he does for a living! he first noticed my car needed brakes....and an inspection....i said wow do you think you could help? he said well i could but how would we get your car there? i said well you could take my car for the day, on saturday i don't need it. !!! i don't really know why i'm saying this except for the fact that it wasn't like i needled him about it or anything.

    i'm gonna play this the whole way through just for the exercise. previous to the car thing, i had been reminding him to do his taxes. he kept putting it off. then one day he says, can you pick up a turbo tax for me? i say sure and i get the turbo tax. then i offer to do his taxes, i keep saying bring your tax stuff over i'll just do it for you i don't mind. april 15 comes and goes. but anyway, while he fixing the car, i'm supposed to do his taxes finally. so i go to do it, but my computer won't let me because i already loaded a turbo tax for my taxes and the whole thing won't work. so i said bring your laptop over and i'll do your taxes on your computer. but he said, no he would just do them.

    i don't know i'm just saying this because it's not like i never do anything for him you know? like he doesn't like to cook that much, so i cook these great meals since i don't really mind. he doesn't shop for stuff he needs very well (spends too much money out of convenience) so i pick stuff up for him all the time.

    then again i did say wanna help me paint the kitchen.....wtf.....this gets to be really funny when you look at it that way.
    Okay I am just.laughing.so.hard because I'm exactly like him! I bought turbo tax like two days before the deadline also! I really don't mind doing the taxes (except this year I specifically asked the husband if there was anything else like IRA contributions or whatever and he said no you're all set so I e-filed. Next morning he wakes up and says wait I forgot I contributed to the kids' Coverdell IRAs. what the?? So he gets to do the amendment, lol) Anyway, I just think it's funny that I can totally relate to your infp guy. I spend more money for convenience all the time. Seriously. I will not drive out of my way for a bargain. Does he also do this really annoying thing (that I do all the time) where he immediately gives you a reason why something cannot be done? My husband hates that. It's like I look for all the reasons why something is impossible. Only I'm not looking, they just pop into my head and out my mouth. ha ha
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Okay I am just.laughing.so.hard because I'm exactly like him! I bought turbo tax like two days before the deadline also! I really don't mind doing the taxes (except this year I specifically asked the husband if there was anything else like IRA contributions or whatever and he said no you're all set so I e-filed. Next morning he wakes up and says wait I forgot I contributed to the kids' Coverdell IRAs. what the?? So he gets to do the amendment, lol) Anyway, I just think it's funny that I can totally relate to your infp guy. I spend more money for convenience all the time. Seriously. I will not drive out of my way for a bargain. Does he also do this really annoying thing (that I do all the time) where he immediately gives you a reason why something cannot be done? My husband hates that. It's like I look for all the reasons why something is impossible. Only I'm not looking, they just pop into my head and out my mouth. ha ha
    hahaha that is really funny. i'm actually kind of a procrastinator myself....but now that i'm single i basically have to take care of stuff or i'll be in big trouble. but anyway, like what kind of things do you think cannot be done? i think i know what you mean but an example is escaping me. lol.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    hahaha that is really funny. i'm actually kind of a procrastinator myself....but now that i'm single i basically have to take care of stuff or i'll be in big trouble. but anyway, like what kind of things do you think cannot be done? i think i know what you mean but an example is escaping me. lol.
    I dunno like the husband will say "we should have someone over this weekend" and I'll say yeah but the patio looks like hell, we need a new umbrella out there because the old one broke and don't forget the grill doesn't work very well, where are we gonna sit everyone, etc. On the other hand there are also times that he rains on my parade too so it works both ways but I will often foresee stuff that he doesn't. I guess it's Ni. I always have to scale back our plans because he takes on too much in general whether it's socially or household tasks. He's too ambitious and I can see that taking on too much is going to end up being stressful for all of us. But informing him of this comes across to him as being a naysayer. It's kinda like I jump to (what I see as the) inevitable conclusion and leave him saying "why are you poking holes in my plans?"
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I dunno like the husband will say "we should have someone over this weekend" and I'll say yeah but the patio looks like hell, we need a new umbrella out there because the old one broke and don't forget the grill doesn't work very well, where are we gonna sit everyone, etc. On the other hand there are also times that he rains on my parade too so it works both ways but I will often foresee stuff that he doesn't. I guess it's Ni. I always have to scale back our plans because he takes on too much in general whether it's socially or household tasks. He's too ambitious and I can see that taking on too much is going to end up being stressful for all of us. But informing him of this comes across to him as being a naysayer. It's kinda like I jump to (what I see as the) inevitable conclusion and leave him saying "why are you poking holes in my plans?"
    lol that is really funny about the patio. i'd be like, i'll clean it. let's just get it done it has to be done anyway. he'd be like, i don't feel like it. i'd be like, let's see how far we get after lunch. then i'd start doing it. then he'd help. then we'd try to get people over there, but they'd change plans and we would have done all that work. but at least it would be done. yeah this sounds exactly like infpman. as he says, "i'm basically lazy." hahaha he's not really lazy, i think he's just completely tired after working all week so he doesn't want to cram alot of stuff in. me i sit at a desk all week so i'm like c'mon let's go do something. he's like, what? i say, i dunno let's go hiking or something. let's go to the river and chill. he'll be like, no. i'm like c'mon. he'll want to be careful on planning what he's going to do. but then he'll be like, why do you have to plan? why can't we take it easy and just see what happens? funnny. when it's his plan, it's not a plan. when it's my plan, it's an uptight plan. LOL!!!

    that's totally your Ni. esfj is always doing too much. and they're totally disorganized, too. and they do stress themselves out. do you think he feels this as supervision?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    lol that is really funny about the patio. i'd be like, i'll clean it. let's just get it done it has to be done anyway. he'd be like, i don't feel like it. i'd be like, let's see how far we get after lunch. then i'd start doing it. then he'd help. then we'd try to get people over there, but they'd change plans and we would have done all that work. but at least it would be done. yeah this sounds exactly like infpman. as he says, "i'm basically lazy." hahaha he's not really lazy, i think he's just completely tired after working all week so he doesn't want to cram alot of stuff in. me i sit at a desk all week so i'm like c'mon let's go do something. he's like, what? i say, i dunno let's go hiking or something. let's go to the river and chill. he'll be like, no. i'm like c'mon. he'll want to be careful on planning what he's going to do. but then he'll be like, why do you have to plan? why can't we take it easy and just see what happens? funnny. when it's his plan, it's not a plan. when it's my plan, it's an uptight plan. LOL!!!
    Oh man. I hate to admit this but I'm lazy too and I don't work outside the house! I don't like feeling crammed though, that's for sure. I'm so guilty of not wanting a plan but when it's my idea, let's do it! My SEI friend is the same way with his EII wife. She wants a plan and he wants to go with the flow. He wants to do his ideas, not hers. Oh the IPs are a pain in the &*^%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    that's totally your Ni. esfj is always doing too much. and they're totally disorganized, too. and they do stress themselves out. do you think he feels this as supervision?
    Yup, I do. Supervision or stubbornness. He thinks I use him as the backstop (similar to the "needs reduction" in the article esper posted above). Since I need the house to be less clean, less planned, less this, less that, he ends up doing everything. He thinks I just wait for him to do it. Only I really don't see it that way. I really don't care if he does it or not. I can totally live without all these tasks being done. he's all a flurry with activity that only serves to tire him out. it's probably the main problem in our marriage!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    Yeah, lol, I can get things done, but it can be really stressful because it's not immediately on my mind and hard to remember. I really appreciate my husband for that. ^_^



    yeah...lol...that's pretty much how it'll be with INFps...IME.

    You know I'm also thinking the um, sociology thing about gender role might play a part in close male/female relationships here too. I'm not saying this is the case, not at all. But I'm thinking about it as I'm reading so I figured I'll share. Sometimes men can subconsciously feel inadequate if the woman makes more money, has a job of higher prestige, seems more responsible or active, and so forth. This is regardless of personality, this is just a cultural study in the US. To make up for this inadequacy he may subconsciously start avoiding chores, which women should look for to check if its happening and work out the issue early on. This is not to say guys doing this are bad or unloving, its just that they tend to feel inadequate in certain circumstances and tend to act a certain way to make up for it. I thought that personalities with Si problems might be particularly susceptible. I found a copy of the article online:



    I also found the study "Men who Share the Second Shift" by Arlie Hocschild and Ann Machung and “But What Do You Mean?” : Women and Men in Conversation by Deborah Tannen helpful.
    that's actually a great article. and, i know no less than 5 women who have divorced their men due to the men won't even do so much as change a diaper. by way of contrast, sle man would always do at least 50% of the house stuff. we totally worked together. it's the relationship stuff that we didn't do.....you know, Fi polr and all. interesting though there are different kinds of divorces...i should post a thread about it sometime.

    infpman expresses massive appreciation for all the stuff i do for him, actually. he even says i do too much. and it's not like he wants to move in so he doesn't have to do this stuff either. it's more like he doesn't really know completely how to run a household since his ex ran the household for 30 years. so i show him how to do stuff and he tries to apply it at his house. he's starting to get it. but you are right in that he doesn't really like to do the house stuff either. so it's a mixed bag.

    esper do infp females avoid these tasks as well?

    ILE

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    redbaron fwiw i have lowered my housecleaning standards quite a bit. in 100 years, who's gonna care how clean my house was? nobody not even me. housework is completely thankless. to get myself to clean, i'll invite people over. then they'll be the tsunami that gets me moving on the house.

    infpman likes it very clean...his ex stayed at home and the house smelled like cleaning products all the time. but he doesn't want to do it.

    well, i don't do it to that extent either. because who cares? LOL

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    esper do infp females avoid these tasks as well?
    I do! But, I mean, being a stay-at-home-mom I do a LOT but I have to say that my husband does a ton of things also, given his work schedule. He does a ton of laundry without me ever asking him to do it. He sometimes cooks on the weekends (which I love) or offers to order out. He makes the occasional weekend run to the grocery store, even changes the sheets So I guess I have it pretty good. **going to go send him an appreciative email now**
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I’m still not sure if all of these things are related…

    • You generally don't feel like you "should" do taxes and file records or feel like you "should" be more responsible in such areas?
    I feel like I should do these things… I hate doing them though… I wish they didn’t exist… I think they’re often unnecessary or irrelevant (horrible routines we have to go through created by the uptight elements of society)… But they’re such a pain in the ass I wouldn’t wish the horror of it on anyone else… I don’t expect others to do these things for me (because I don't believe in torturing people )… but I hate doing them so I put them off as long as possible, or try to find a way where I can skip having to do them at all.

    With my taxes this year I mailed the forms on April 15 and did them on the night of April 14… once again they weren’t as bad as I thought they were going to be… but I hate doing taxes… it ends up being in the back of my mind between January and April and then I forget about them, but when I remember it’s like “oh shit I have to do stupid taxes at some point…” and then I feel stressed out. There were a couple years where I just got them out of the way early… and that’s more wise… but I usually don’t do that…

    • You generally don't feel like you "should" pay attention to all the myriads of objects around you and where--for instance--you keep loosing your keys?
    Object placement is often in the back of my mind, like this thing that nags at me from far, far away… I prefer not to think about it. But I certainly don’t want to lose my keys (it’s happened several times and always causes great woe)… so I really try to pay attention to where I put them… mainly it’s that I can’t pay attention to this stuff… I try to though… like in the shower this morning I washed myself and then shampooed my hair… but after I was done shampooing my hair I reached for the washcloth and couldn’t remember if I’d already done that for a few moments… and then I realized I wasn’t paying attention when I was washing myself… my mind had been going over several conversations with several people and things this reminded me off, and does that mean that something else is different than I thought it was, and… then I realized the washcloth was wet so of course I had used it...

    • You generally don't feel like you "should" create a pleasing or clean environment or a healthy diet for yourself or for others? How about physical appearance?
    I do feel I “should” create these things… but I often don’t… I have a really hard time maintaining a clean environment… I have a difficult time doing anything with my diet… usually I buy pre-made foods or food that requires little or no preparation because I just… I don’t know why… it’s a pain to prepare food… I tend to be sort of oblivious about creating a pleasing environment for others… in fact it’s all relative because it depends what is “pleasing” to others… and that is simply too complicated… because I don’t know what is pleasing to others… it’s different for everyone… and it’s not that I want people to be uncomfortable or anything… it’s just I don’t think about these things… and I wouldn’t want to… in my mind it just draws a blank… I don’t see the need for an environment to be pleasing is what it comes down to…

    As for my physical appearance there’s no constant really… I’ve been very different about it my whole life… when I have time I usually wear make-up… when I don’t have much time I just throw something on… I do sort of focus on an “attractiveness” of sorts… but I love off-the-wall attractiveness… like things that aren’t the norm or aren’t standard… and are attractive in a unique way… that stand out… I may not notice what others are wearing though… I may focus more on enhancing my own attractiveness (when I care to) because I go through long periods of not caring at all… I don’t usually care how others are dressed… you know, I don’t know. I have a sense of this, but I can’t pin it down. I can’t fathom spending long amounts of time on physical appearance though… like my sister can spend an hour every morning just on her hair… I tend to run my fingers through my hair with conditioner in the shower which “brushes” it and then I can run a brush through it a few times when I’m out of the shower… Sometimes I go for days without brushing my hair though… and there were a few long periods of time in my life where I never brushed it… the thing is it will just grow out more anyway… and I can always trim off split ends inevitably… and no matter what I do the ends will split, maybe just not as quickly as when I don’t brush/use conditioner.

    I think with related stuff I go in circles… I forget things and then I have a “flash of insight” about it and I realize I’ve had this insight before and then I forgot about it… in fact I’ve had it several times… Like the thing with taxes… they’re not really that bad… I got them done in half an hour this time… though of course I had to find all the necessary papers… and I realized they’re not that bad… I realize this every time… and then I forget my realization… next January I’ll be thinking “oh god, taxes” and probably forget they’re not so bad… because I won’t remember the experience of doing them anymore… experiences seem to fade from memory fast. (This could be a bad example if taxes aren’t related, but there are other things – I’ve rambled on long enough though.)


    False alarm! I do really relate to the trying to improve oneself in these areas thing... I go through phases like that... and I relate to the strange unexpected self-esteem boost when complimented in these areas because then I think I have a better handle on it than I though... maybe it's not so bad. :-)

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    the phrase "it's all relative" should be put next to all pictures of infp's. LOL

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    , , - oh how I loathe thee.

    This really manifests in me in glaringly obvious ways. I am almost never aware of my present physical surroundings in that "harmonious" way that comes so naturally to Si ego types. Instead, I am oblivious usually, and am constantly thinking of something else. That "something else" tends to be very far-reaching goals, what is happening in the future, the next day, etc. I am very infamous for my "tunnel vision" walk. I apparently look like I'm always walking towards a goal and that nothing and no one could or should get in my way.

    Due to this, I barely see people until they are right in front of me, especially at school. They have to be very aggressive and forceful, in my face, for me to truly pay full attention to them. I rarely if ever say "hi" or smile at people when I'm going from class to class. It's just that I don't pay enough attention, not that I'm mean or snobby (like so many believe.)

    More examples of my weak is definitely HYPOCHONDRIA! I have the worst, worst case of it you'll probably ever find. Enough said. I don't even like talking about it because it's just one of my greatest downfalls... it causes me so much stress and worry. I have no idea how to take care of my health in a proper way. I usually overdo it. I've read that some other EIEs might be so unaware of that they won't even go to the doctor/ignore physical ailments... but others like me, will go to the doctor for any little thing and blow it up to be possibly serious illnesses, even cancer!

    Another thing with weak is that I'm very, very nervous about my physical appearance. I have to be "all done up" and "perfect" before I can feel 100% confident in myself. I always think I am being judged on my appearance... I've heard Kristina say the exact same thing about appearances. Every negative thing that happens to us can be linked back to it. It's kind of like this : I wake up in the morning, get dressed, put on make-up, feel fine. However, as the day wears on, I tend to get iffy about myself, and think that maybe I look worse somehow b/c of what happens throughout an entire day.

    Strong ego types always look comfortable in their own skin. That's a perfect way to put it. They know how they look, and they're fine with it... unlike me, who always feels self-conscious about these matters. I again, over-do it instead of under-doing it like LIEs are more prone to do.

    ETA: Housework and menial chores. Absolutely NOT up my alley. I simply refuse to be bothered with such tasks. Simply refuse! My parents abhor this about me and constantly try and make me a more "civilized" person. They think I would not be able to survive on my own b/c I am, (in their words) constantly focusing on big dreams but forgetting about the little details of life. I am going to live on residence for university this upcoming September and my parents think I'll be clueless. Personally, I think they put way too much focus on stuff like this. It's not important to me. I'll just delegate the tasks to other people

    Hope this has helped the thread.


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    That's very interesting, because for example I can notice people very easily especially when I'm moving from place to place. I think this can also be tracked down to the difference between and , where the first has among its characteristics the ability to track objects moving in the environment.

    My ISFj girlfriend is more similar to you: she cannot easily notice people around her. However, she will easily notice ex. a stain or some little detail that is out of place in the other person's appearance (even if she won't necessarily mention it). I am the opposite: very easily notice everything in my environment but generally couldn't give a shit about whether I have a little stain or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post

    Due to this, I barely see people until they are right in front of me, especially at school. They have to be very aggressive and forceful, in my face, for me to truly pay full attention to them. I rarely if ever say "hi" or smile at people when I'm going from class to class. It's just that I don't pay enough attention, not that I'm mean or snobby (like so many believe.)

    I relate to this.
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    I neglect things like sleep and not knowing exactly when my body needs it. I don't realize that I need to sleep until I literally pass out, or get sick. I'll become aware of this and I end up going overboard trying to fix it. I'll do things such as making a personal goal of setting my bedtime to 8:00 each night, or taking a sleeping pill at the exact same time every night to make sure I wont become distracted from sleeping.

    Let's not forget about feeding myself. I enjoy good food and cooking but embarrassingly I don't always realize if I'm starving and I'll neglect feeding myself if I'm overly stressed. If I'm depressed I don't even want to think about food or anything enjoyable; I'll just want to wallow in my own self pity.

    I also don't realize when by body is under severe medical crisis. It's hard to explain, but when I'm not feeling good I'm never 100% sure if I am feeling good or not, or what the "normal" thing to be feeling is. There was a time when I was seconds away from death and I actually tried to stubbornly refuse going to the hospital because I thought I was fine and just assumed that I was tired.
    Last edited by fox; 05-02-2008 at 11:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Sometimes I have ultimate outer body experiences. I just suddenly feel outside the flow of time. When it happens I'm usually somewhat sleep-derived, but simple stress can do the same. I just see people moving, dogs barking, etc. When people walk past me, I feel their presence very strongly (like underwater when someone swims past you). It sounds cool and spooky, but actually it's quite horrible. I feel like a visible ghost then.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    You generally don't feel like you "should" do taxes and file records or feel like you "should" be more responsible in such areas?
    Perhaps this is more related to Te than Si?

    You generally don't feel like you "should" pay attention to all the myriads of objects around you and where--for instance--you keep loosing your keys?
    Of course. If I'm looking for my keys, I'm wasting time. A very frustrating experience indeed.

    You generally don't feel like you "should" create a pleasing or clean environment or a healthy diet for yourself or for others?
    I definitely feel like these are things that should be seen to, but I don't feel like I'm the one who should be seeing to them.

    How about physical appearance?You generally don't get a kick out of being accomplished in these or other Si areas (assuming this is a correct analysis), feeling mostly like its a waste of time?
    It feels good to be on top of stuff like that, but it's not as much a priority as other things in my life.



    I'm not sure it's a good idea to invite LIE's (or ILI's, which you seem to have neglected anyways) in on this question. There's no such thing as pure Si as an information element. It's always combined with other information elements, the manner of which is dependent on one's functional arrangement.

    So you'll never find examples of a "pure" Si PoLR. It'll be a Si PoLR + Te dominance, or a Si PoLR + a Te Role, or a Si PoLR + Fe dominance, or a Si PoLR + Ti dual seeking. (Though more realistically you'd be looking at all of the functions for each type at once.)
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    Why the hostility? Anyways...

    A lack of concern for small aesthetic details is more visible in the LIE; in the case of the EIE, the low focus on is more noticeable as a dislike for low-level practical details, such as filling up forms, signing documents, or filling tax returns.
    It's describing possible differences in the manifestations Si PoLRs in EIE's vs. LIE's:

    An LIE is more likely to show a lack of concern for aesthetic details than an EIE is.

    An EIE is more likely to show a dislike for filling forms, filing taxes, etc. than an LIE is.
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    Maybe I should have said, "Perhaps this is as much related to Te as it is to Si?" instead of, "Perhaps this is more related to Te than Si?" (I didn't because I had never made the connection between Si and filling out forms.)
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    well whatever, but the LIE CEO at my agency personally designs how each location is decorated. and i'd have to say she does a good job.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    (o.O) ? I didn't mean to show hostility. I just wanted you to explain your points. Sorry if I made you feel that way. You can't hear my tone of voice on a forum. :<
    lol

    Sorry for misunderstanding you then, like you said, we can't always understand people's tones very easily in written communication.

    Yeah I think Si is just related to taking care of the "mundane details" of creating a harmonious, pleasing environment, and perhaps financial stability is included in that. I actually wonder how it is, myself. I assume that would be the explanation.
    It is.

    Si is related to care taking and being a good provider. I think this can be best understood by observing ESxj/INxj duality. ESxj's are great at earning steady incomes to provide constant stability and continuously comfortable lifestyles for their duals.

    I'm not sure how this aspect of Si applies to EIE's, but for LIE's, their lack of concern for constant stability and continuously comfortable lifestyles can lead them to high risk, high reward investments. They love calculated risks and aren't afraid of failure, even if it means temporarily living a less than 100% comfortable lifestyle (thankfully ESI's are fussy about this for them, to some extent ). They're also happy to temporarily maintain a lower standard of living than ESxj's are, as long as it's part of a long term plan.

    To be honest, I'm still not sure how disliking filling out paperwork and filing taxes and whatnot is related to Si. I'm also not sure how Si PoLR's and Roles work for Betas.

    I can tell you though that for my IEI dad, his occupation (tool and die maker) and some of his interests are related to Si. Not Si in a care giving or health sense, but in a mechanical sense. He has these little projects like building a hover craft and that sort of thing. He also likes taking stuff apart to see how it works and tweak it and whatnot I guess, because when my kid did that to the one of the cars in the slot car set he gave him for his birthday, he thought it was cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    well whatever, but the LIE CEO at my agency personally designs how each location is decorated. and i'd have to say she does a good job.
    Our PoLR's are inabilities, by any means. I'm sure there's a lot more to her job than that... if that was all she did all day everyday, she'd probably go insane (or quit) pretty quickly.
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    yeah i guess joy and the point is she can obviously do it if she puts her mind to it and actually she insists...won't let anybody else do it. not what i'd call unable to do it as one would expect from somebody with Si as their polr.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    ^_^

    Thanks for that info, Joy, it was interesting.
    np (:

    Wouldn't that be one of the basics of being a caretaker and provider, having your finances accounted for and viewing that as an important means towards stability? Do Si-valuers tend to think that way?
    I would tend to think so, but the ESxj's (an LSE and an ESE) I know best tend not to stay on top of stuff like that unless they've got someone else helping them. Maybe IJ types are best at that sort of thing? I don't know, it could be an individual thing in part as well.

    Oh I LOVE taking things apart and figuring out how they tick. ^_^ I'm very much a tinkerer. Perhaps that's more related to Ni + Ti HA...

    And I realized when he said that that the Ni information element can "look" like Si in that sense when it becomes concerned about "what are the patterns that take place in time to create a certain future event" in certain objects, as well as in more abstract ideas or observations of behavior. I imagine that, just as a NiFe can be interested in behavior over time in humans, they could be interested in behavior over time in more abstract subjects like mechanical objects. I myself have always been a lover of the inner workings of technology. Such things are incredibly interesting to me! ^_^
    I tend to think of the Role as an extension of one's dominant function, so maybe it's a Ni use of Si? (Sort of like how Te dominants use Fe... I think they generally tend see it as a means to supplement their Te in order to more effectively accomplish whatever it is they're trying to accomplish.)

    One Ni-creative (EIE) I know, for instance, loves chess, and suggested to me that it would be Si because its understanding relationships between objects in space.
    Nah, chess is too conceptual to "be" Si.

    I think chess is probably more related to Ti than any other information element (and then Ni), but like I said, no information aspect/function can work in a vacuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    yeah i guess joy and the point is she can obviously do it if she puts her mind to it and actually she insists...won't let anybody else do it. not what i'd call unable to do it as one would expect from somebody with Si as their polr.
    Sounds to me like she's insecure about it.
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    Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
    yeah i guess joy and the point is she can obviously do it if she puts her mind to it and actually she insists...won't let anybody else do it. not what i'd call unable to do it as one would expect from somebody with Si as their polr.

    Sounds to me like she's insecure about it.
    i'll be sure and tell my CEO, of a multimillion dollar agency, that you think so
    Last edited by Blaze; 05-04-2008 at 09:37 PM.

    ILE

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