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Thread: LII's stance on obedience and rebellion

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    Default LII's stance on obedience and rebellion

    Someone fill me in.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Someone fill me in.
    They vary from person to person. There is no grand LII stance on obedience and rebellion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    Then humor her. What about you?
    Be obedient and rebellious when appropriate to the circumstances of your particular person. I personally find this topic to be rather silly because it seems that everyone has an image of self-worth that they are trying to maintain through these ideas. When most of these discussions are happening it is like people are talking about completely different concepts, as everyone has a different idea about what is meant by obedience and rebellion and to what degree or scope.
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    Depends. Some people are offense oriented: life's a struggle to them and they spend pretty much all of their time trying to "win" the struggle. Others, like me, are defense oriented and may or may not be open to counter-attack depending on their relative timidity. (I am not at all timid, so if I think you're on offense I immediately retaliate). I usually "retaliate" whenever I am faced with an opinion I observe as a departure from the mainstream used to injure me socially, like what happened with the ISTj and the test.

    As for INTjs in general, they are very sensitive about their +Se and see -Se as a very potent threat to it. This may have to do with -Se's presence in function 6, which has higher dimensionality than function 4, but I'm not really sure. In any case, INTjs see +Se as their own will, or the will of an individual, and -Se as the will of a larger collective. (the "object") An example would be a military draft: the -Se is the agreement of the nation to impress its citizens into the armed forces; the +Se at risk is the INTj's freedom and most likely, well-being. Whenever you, you can count, usually by appealing to a sense of inequity and unfairness in the group's consideration of the INTj. On the altar of this injustice a committee may be formed by breaking up the social situation into its component instincts and dissolving consensus (congealing the committee from the instinctually similar remains thereof), thus also threatening the existing -Se unit. The committee itself assembles over a perception of diverged paths in the midst of the larger conflict.

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    Obedience and rebellion are behaviors that owe their origins to TiNe. There is an order to the universe. Gravity, mathematics, ontologies, grammar, Logos, etc. are all part of the cosmic order and cannot be rebelled against. Everything else is superfluous and needs be ignored/rebelled/etc.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Be obedient and rebellious when appropriate to the circumstances of your particular person. I personally find this topic to be rather silly because it seems that everyone has an image of self-worth that they are trying to maintain through these ideas. When most of these discussions are happening it is like people are talking about completely different concepts, as everyone has a different idea about what is meant by obedience and rebellion and to what degree or scope.
    ok, now i'm curious, what wouldn't you rebel against?
    how far is too far according to your values and roughly, what are they.

    *curious*
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    My LII friend is in the military and from what I can tell she only advocates rebellious ideas when the person above her in a hierarchical system (in this case the military) is blatantly incompetent. So it's not rebellion against the system per se but against people/power that threatens the system's integrity.
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    INTjs hate authority and will usually rebel against most authoritative figures unless they actually find that figure to be completely competent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    My LII friend is in the military and from what I can tell she only advocates rebellious ideas when the person above her in a hierarchical system (in this case the military) is blatantly incompetent. So it's not rebellion against the system per se but against people/power that threatens the system's integrity.
    Not just the system's integrity, but it's optimal execution.

    Another reason for INTj/LII rebellion: -Se background is the battery for -Ni background, which LIIs see as bleak, dreary; that's the whole point of +Ne, to bring light to a cold, ruthless chain of events. LII sees militarization/group mobilization and the darker side of history as invaribly intertwined. Standing up against the oppressive -Se, for INTj, also means to stand up against the -Ni it wrecks upon human potential. There is a large body of evidence supporting the contention that when war comes, good ideas fall by the wayside. In fact, experimental verification of the general theory of relativity was delayed by the outbreak of WWI for five years. The same period also gave us mustard gas research. That's pathological -Ne built upon -Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea View Post
    ok, now i'm curious, what wouldn't you rebel against?
    how far is too far according to your values and roughly, what are they.

    *curious*
    Should we be in a constant state of rebellion? I cannot tell you how far is too far since there is no real method of being able to objectively measure the external pressures that would trigger rebellious behavior. But I find this dichotomy to be ridiculous. I do not see my behavior as something that conforms to either being obedient or rebelling, but more in terms of acting and reacting to my particular set of circumstances in life according to my principles. If I have no reason to be rebellious, then why should I be? If I have no reason to be obedient, then why should I be? Is rebellion worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Is obedience worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Risks versus benefits. Is the rebellious fight even worth my effort? Can rebellion not interfere with my goals in the short-term or long-term?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Should we be in a constant state of rebellion? I cannot tell you how far is too far since there is no real method of being able to objectively measure the external pressures that would trigger rebellious behavior. But I find this dichotomy to be ridiculous. I do not see my behavior as something that conforms to either being obedient or rebelling, but more in terms of acting and reacting to my particular set of circumstances in life according to my principles. If I have no reason to be rebellious, then why should I be? If I have no reason to be obedient, then why should I be? Is rebellion worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Is obedience worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Risks versus benefits. Is the rebellious fight even worth my effort? Can rebellion not interfere with my goals in the short-term or long-term?
    well, yes, i agree, i would say that too.
    But i'm more curious as to what you would rebel against?
    i mean, i do understand, even i wouldn't rebel for no good reason. i don't mean to ask do you relate better to obedience or rebelliousness, but i'm just curious as to what(you are pretty sure off) that you would rebel against because xxx (eg: your believes, w/e it is).
    i don't think anyone is in a constant state of rebellion or obedience. Not asking for an objective measure, just in your opinion. because i'm curious what you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea View Post
    well, yes, i agree, i would say that too.
    But i'm more curious as to what you would rebel against?
    i mean, i do understand, even i wouldn't rebel for no good reason. i don't mean to ask do you relate better to obedience or rebelliousness, but i'm just curious as to what(you are pretty sure off) that you would rebel against because xxx (eg: your believes, w/e it is).
    i don't think anyone is in a constant state of rebellion or obedience. Not asking for an objective measure, just in your opinion. because i'm curious what you think.
    - Superfluous bureaucracy: There is no reason for it to be in place, and things can run just as smoothly without it, so just disregard what is needless.
    - Incompetent or oppressive authority: Oftentimes the two can be one and the same. Rebellion is also warranted when authority figure exists merely as an authority but have no goals or objectives which they are trying to achieve or if these goals and objectives that they do have seem counterproductive to whatever group/organization/institution to which the authority is entrenched.
    - Prevailing opinions that go unquestioned: Those who hold the prevailing opinions of the majority should not go about unquestioned, nor should the voices of the minorities go about unheeded.
    - Being ordered to do something without explanation or personal consent: Who are you to order me to do anything? Have you ever thought that I would be willing to help if you just asked?

    Rebellion though is often not overt or confrontational, but more often than not, it is generally passive aggressive or subversive. It tries to avoid confrontation and simply ignores the authority to pursue their own ends.
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    @Logos: couldn't have said it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    - Superfluous bureaucracy: There is no reason for it to be in place, and things can run just as smoothly without it, so just disregard what is needless.
    - Incompetent or oppressive authority: Oftentimes the two can be one and the same. Rebellion is also warranted when authority figure exists merely as an authority but have no goals or objectives which they are trying to achieve or if these goals and objectives that they do have seem counterproductive to whatever group/organization/institution to which the authority is entrenched.
    - Prevailing opinions that go unquestioned: Those who hold the prevailing opinions of the majority should not go about unquestioned, nor should the voices of the minorities go about unheeded.
    - Being ordered to do something without explanation or personal consent: Who are you to order me to do anything? Have you ever thought that I would be willing to help if you just asked?

    Rebellion though is often not overt or confrontational, but more often than not, it is generally passive aggressive or subversive. It tries to avoid confrontation and simply ignores the authority to pursue their own ends.
    that's awesome, well worded, and I agree with all those statements!
    INFp-Ni

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