Ashton

[Ezra]

There were a few typing threads a few years back, posted by Gilly and Joy. I'm interested in people's current opinions.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't know who he is, but I recall seeing him on stickam before, for a wee while, and I thought he was ENTj.

[eunice]

Ni-ENTj. Doesn't seem to value Fe as well.

On a side note, I have enjoyed reading his posts.

[discojoe]

Ni-ENTj. Doesn't seem to value Fe as well.

On a side note, I have enjoyed reading his posts.

What disgusting things to say.

[strrrng]

Ashton is clearly ENTj. The Ni-Se is blatantly obvious from his writing style (the way he illustrates ideas) and the energy he conveys. I have spoken with him on the phone and it was clear he is no Fe-valuer.

[Steve]

I notice the same thing.

[Ezra]

If Ashton used Fe, it would certainly be Beta-Fe. Personally, I think he enjoys that kind of thing; I think he enjoys stirring up conflict, for his own personal entertainment. I think he has the ability to rouse this same kind of conflict-admiration in other people. This doesn't necessarily mean he's Fe ego, but it does mean he prefers Se/Ni over Ne/Si (although I don't think anyone, even he, doubts that). In my opinion, he's either Fe ego or Se ego; I see very little evidence for Te ego or his even giving a shit about Te.

[strrrng]

If Ashton used Fe, it would certainly be Beta-Fe. Personally, I think he enjoys that kind of thing; I think he enjoys stirring up conflict, for his own personal entertainment. I think he has the ability to rouse this same kind of conflict-admiration in other people. This doesn't necessarily mean he's Fe ego, but it does mean he prefers Se/Ni over Ne/Si (although I don't think anyone, even he, doubts that). In my opinion, he's either Fe ego or Se ego; I see very little evidence for Te ego or his even giving a shit about Te.

you're right - it is related to Se/Ni. However, he has little understanding and liking for any type of Fe. That function is simply suppressed with him. And he very much 'gives a shit' about Te; you can see it in all of his explanations.

I have spoken with him many times and it is obvious he isn't my mirror or dual....compare him to someone like herzy...she doesn't have that same sense of control and, to some degree, intensity as he does. Then compare him to bulletsanddoves (maybe not the best example, as being gay can add points to Fe lol)...ashton is far more contained than him.

I'm not even sure what the arguments for ESTp are?...impulsive and intense = Se ego?

[aestrivex]

i pity you and your blind devotion to ashtonian thought, strrrng.

[strrrng]

i pity you and your blind devotion to ashtonian thought, strrrng.

I pity you for still not knowing your true type after all this time. btw, thinking ashton is ENTj is a personal observation, not "ashtonian thought," dumbass. I explained my reasons, something you haven't done.

[Joy]

EIE > SLE

[strrrng]

EIE > SLE

explain how he is Fe ego

[Expat]

i have never seen video of Ashton, so i will have to reserve judgement on that. however i will just warn: be careful not to look for the Alpha kind of Fe more focussed on the immediate emotional atmosphere and conclude no Beta kind - which is more focussed on long-term social role.

If Ashton used Fe, it would certainly be Beta-Fe. Personally, I think he enjoys that kind of thing; I think he enjoys stirring up conflict, for his own personal entertainment. I think he has the ability to rouse this same kind of conflict-admiration in other people. This doesn't necessarily mean he's Fe ego, but it does mean he prefers Se/Ni over Ne/Si (although I don't think anyone, even he, doubts that). In my opinion, he's either Fe ego or Se ego; I see very little evidence for Te ego or his even giving a shit about Te.

Yes.

Regardless of Ashton's type, my impression is that some people have an Alpha-only view of Fe.

Look at what Filatova wrote about the EIE version of Fe (and she's not alone):

Fe – program function: Life for EIE is the sphere of emotions, which he, as a conductor, skillfully orchestrates. He is capable to act on his surroundings by a wide range of his own feelings – from powerful explosions saturated by his dramatic nature, by tragedy or by enthusiasm, by the ability to keep silent for several days and go about with a stone face; his entire form despising and “punishing”, in an unmistakable way, the person whom insulted him. People admire his bright emotionalism, the dramatic nature of his experiences, and his ability to responsd to the most trivial changes in the moods of those around him. His rich world of feelings contains different hues of emotions, which in observing this psycho-type are immediately demonstrated by those surrounding.
If others act indignantly towards him they qualify themselves as loathesome, malicious, and envious, and action is taken. His source of enthusiasm and delight, without fail, is anything directed to the highest spiritual ideals… In the emotional sphere EIE has a certain standard of expression he uses to discover how the public reacts, to him, emotionally.

I think this describes Ashton rather well, but even if you disagree, it shows that Fe is not just about taking someone else's emotion in consideration in a "nice Fe" kind of way.

It seems to me that the disagreement has to do with whether or not you see Jung's typology as the "true" description of functions. In that case, the bigger question is not anyone's particular type, but how we understand socionics.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

With her (filatova) description in mind, I see Blair as a prototypical ENFj.

I though Ashton was ENTj from the web cam, so ENFj wouldn't be impossible either.

[Expat]

Other selected bits of Filatova's EIE description --

Ni:

the program function. To take the attention of those that surround him, to hold it in himself; leading others aids him in experiencing an indefatigable fantasy. He is able to dedicate himself to serving a high ideal, especially if such activity aids him in recognizing his own sense of nobility and uniqueness. The demonstration of his uniqueness serves to stimulate and inspire him.
As a rule he reads a lot. Not alien to having a literary gift, loves poetry, music, painting, and cinematography. Holds close to himself the ideas of humanism and general human values. He’s drawn towards the image of a noble person; sometimes he’ll be tempted by the desire to enter into a “secular society” where his talents would be properly noticed and his value properly evaluated.
The fact that his own imagination is what makes him appealing to the world leads to his attention being primarily directed towards global problems. Thus flashes of mutual anxiety and sympathy to those close by can just as easily “come to naught”. He may suddenly involuntarily insult another without understanding this. His heightened sense of vulnerability forces him into adopting a self-defensive stance; in which case through his sharpness and intolerance he can easily deliver (with words) a calculated “strike” against his target.

Si:

Si: So long as he does not doubt in his own abilities and uniqueness then he is utterly capable of taking care of his health and household – spheres where the EIE often feels the need for the help and council of other people. As a rule he is clean and squeamish. But he poorly recognizes his body’s needs, thus he may either constantly run to the physician or react in the exact opposite manner and not visit medical institutions until he literally collapses.
He often lacks the ability to discern the appropriateness of his observations before communicating them. Thus he appears to lack etiquette and this is reinforced by rough or vulgar manifestations in his behaviour. He often yields to his immediate mood, when this is positive, often because he’s been incited by public attention, he can present a commendable sense of generousity and charity. Such traits are dependent on his mood and, likewise, when effected negatively he may treat others meagerly, as if pitying them.

----

Conscious of his ability to make an educated guess, in regards to the essence of what is happening around him, and confident in his correctness because of this, he is capable of acting with volitional pressure. Specifically if before him is someone, whom EIE considers “below himself”, whether in regards to age, level of culture etc… he sometimes desires to humble this person, to “put them in their place.”

Te:

Te – normative function. Emotional enthusiasm plays an integral role in the EIE’s fitness for work. Without such influence he can wonder about, deeply drowning in his troubles, and thereby justifying his own inertia. But if his work fascinates him he burns with a bright flame. In such a situation it is difficult to sway him from his course; it’s even difficult for him to stop, in such a situation, and acknowledge other vitally necessary tasks (i.e. preparation of food). He relates, as a rule, to creative work, and conversely disdains any sort of manual labour. When he finds himself forced into a “course cloth” type of labour he prefers to work on people instead of the task at hand, he utilizes his ability to convince, to inspire, to operate the emotional levers present in the situation (he thus compensates by acting with his strong function).
EIE enjoys realizing himself in the intellectual arena. He takes pleasure in demonstrating the implications that philosophical problems present. He loves discussions with abstract themes.

I think the quotes above (not only the highlighted bits, although those even more so) are Ashton all over.

[Ezra]

And he very much 'gives a shit' about Te; you can see it in all of his explanations.

To be honest, I could just as easily see Ti.

Hey, has anyone yet considered LSI? I don't think he VIs contradictory to this, and I could easily see Ti base for him. I've had a long conversation with him before about his political and economic views, and he seemed far more concerned with convincing me why my views were wrong than he did about perhaps changing his own.

I have spoken with him many times and it is obvious he isn't my mirror or dual....compare him to someone like herzy...she doesn't have that same sense of control and, to some degree, intensity as he does.

Compare me to Herzy. I have different control and intensity to her, so does that mean I'm not SLE?

Then compare him to bulletsanddoves (maybe not the best example, as being gay can add points to Fe lol)...ashton is far more contained than him.

So? Why does that mean individuals can't share the same ego functions?

In that case, the bigger question is not anyone's particular type, but how we understand socionics.

I was just thinking this. People's views of socionics are completely open to interpretation. This is partly due to Aushra's half-arsed effort to explain and publish her theories and ideas, partly because a lot of people, SocioniX aside, have a fucked up view of socionics in general. There's no clear path to take with socionics, so we all have to come to our own conclusions about it. The people who have studied it most are clearly in the most powerful positions in any given forum, circle or community, due to the fact that they can manipulate the knowledge or understanding of socionics of those who are trying to learn from them. And what else can one do but indoctrinate those who have a lesser understanding of socionics than oneself does, based on the fact that there is no clear "one way"?

[FDG]

The people who have studied it most are clearly in the most powerful positions in any given forum, circle or community, due to the fact that they can manipulate the knowledge or understanding of socionics of those who are trying to learn from them.

Bullshit. The people who have studied the most know they still know nothing. Those that try to influence and manipulate are those that have not studied it enough. The person here who has studied it the most and has the deepest knowledge of the subject, Smilingeyes, is often considered a fool by a good percentage of the forum.

[strrrng]

Expat, the quotes you listed didn't say anything in regards to Te vs. Fe really.

Ezra, the point was that it's pretty easy to know when someone is in your quadra, and I have never gotten that feel from him.

watch him on webcam and tell me if you see any Fe

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I was just thinking this. People's views of socionics are completely open to interpretation. This is partly due to Aushra's half-arsed effort to explain and publish her theories and ideas, partly because a lot of people, SocioniX aside, have a fucked up view of socionics in general. There's no clear path to take with socionics, so we all have to come to our own conclusions about it. The people who have studied it most are clearly in the most powerful positions in any given forum, circle or community, due to the fact that they can manipulate the knowledge or understanding of socionics of those who are trying to learn from them. And what else can one do but indoctrinate those who have a lesser understanding of socionics than oneself does, based on the fact that there is no clear "one way"?

One can study, but does that mean one will be good "on the job", so to speak?

[strrrng]

that's not going to go anywhere though, because it seems like people here have differing views on what Fe/Te/etc. actually are in the first place.

(basically repeating what expat said earlier ITT)

it doesn't matter if it's beta or alpha...Fe can still be spotted

[Creepy-Cyclops]

it doesn't matter if it's beta or alpha...Fe can still be spotted

incorrect. in one quadra Fe is spotted, in the other it is stripey.

[strrrng]

that's not what I meant. there's obviously a difference here in what people believe the IM elements to be and how they see them manifest, since some see ashton as being Te, and others see Fe/Se.

also, this is also further confused by the fact that you (correct me if I'm wrong... I believe this is ashton's stance as well) believe that each type within a quadra only uses and is "strong" at their valued functions, which is why I've seen you say once that a reason joy can't be LIE is that you "see no Se with her." this is not a classical socionics standpoint, so it confuse those who are trying to learn the basics of the classical view when you say things like that as if they were socionics "fact".

(and no I'm not trying to say the other interpretations are necessarily wrong, but I think it should be made clear that you are coming from a differing standpoint)

I think you use your valued functions, but are not "strong" in the same way with each. For example, I consider myself adept at Ti, but it's not as honed and natural as Ni. Ti is something I like to do...Ni is my natural way. The whole concept of skilled/unskilled is too linear anyway. functions revolve around each other like buoys out at sea. When I said I see no Se with Joy, I didn't mean skill; I simply meant that Ni/Se people have a certain intensity that Si/Ne people don't, due to the polarity of the functions (Se is most concrete function, Ni is most abstract, so the balancing out is more extreme than Ne and Si) and that I didn't sense that with joy. also, there is never any Ni interpretation in her posts...plus her description of Si polr was sooo bad and wrong. Joy also seems to force Te and have an inaccurate conception of what it is

[Ezra]

Bullshit. The people who have studied the most know they still know nothing. Those that try to influence and manipulate are those that have not studied it enough. The person here who has studied it the most and has the deepest knowledge of the subject, Smilingeyes, is often considered a fool by a good percentage of the forum.

That's an entirely subjective opinion. Is someone wrong if they think Logos, hkkmr, Diana or Minde knows most about socionics? This is base shit, Fabio.

And your first assertion is ridiculous. Why even bother to study socionics if you "still know nothing"?

Ezra, the point was that it's pretty easy to know when someone is in your quadra, and I have never gotten that feel from him.

watch him on webcam and tell me if you see any Fe

Okay, so maybe EIE is outlandish. But that still doesn't remove the possibility of his being in a Fe valuing quadra; that is, of his being a Beta ST.

[strrrng]

Okay, so maybe EIE is outlandish. But that still doesn't remove the possibility of his being in a Fe valuing quadra; that is, of his being a Beta ST.

except for the fact that he has a strong distaste for Ti. Consider this: I seek Ti very strongly. When exploring an idea, I am always looking for the principles and trying to tie shit together on a general level. I appreciate it when others illustrate things concisely, with some structural framework. So, I find it very easy to follow someone like steve's train of thought, whether reading a post or listening to an explanation, because there is always a background and internal organization. I can remember one time, however, when I was probing ashton about the temperaments...I would ask a question...and he would simply answer it. Now, his answer would be objectively correct, but it wouldn't give me any format for anything...it was just like another link in the chain. He was illustrating ideas in a 'this is this, this is that' way, but there was no 'this is how this and that tie together' style. My point is that I know when someone is giving me Ti - because it is very fulfilling - and he never has.

[Kristiina]

there are some basic similarities between me and Ashton. Could be the EJ temperament and Ni-creative. I used to be sure he was ESFp, but then I saw him on stickam. And when I talked with him, I was like, "whoa, Ni!"

[Ezra]

except for the fact that he has a strong distaste for Ti. Consider this: I seek Ti very strongly. When exploring an idea, I am always looking for the principles and trying to tie shit together on a general level. I appreciate it when others illustrate things concisely, with some structural framework. So, I find it very easy to follow someone like steve's train of thought, whether reading a post or listening to an explanation, because there is always a background and internal organization. I can remember one time, however, when I was probing ashton about the temperaments...I would ask a question...and he would simply answer it. Now, his answer would be objectively correct, but it wouldn't give me any format for anything...it was just like another link in the chain. He was illustrating ideas in a 'this is this, this is that' way, but there was no 'this is how this and that tie together' style. My point is that I know when someone is giving me Ti - because it is very fulfilling - and he never has.

Okay, fair point.

[Expat]

Expat, the quotes you listed didn't say anything in regards to Te vs. Fe really.

1) Before the post with the quotes on Ni, Si, and Te, I quoted her description of EIE's Fe;

2) Even on the quotes on Ni, Si and Te, Fe "contaminates" Filatova's descriptions of those functions; that is clear if you read them alongside her descriptions of Ni, Si, Te and Fe in the LIE profile.

To put it another way: if you read her LIE profile as a whole, and then the EIE profile, all of functions, the Te vs Fe emphasis is clear, all over. And I think the EIE description, overall, fits Ashton much better than the LIE one.

And, in my view, Filatova's concepts are consistent with what I understand as classical socionics - along with the other descriptions in the wiki.

[Tom]

Ni-ENTj

[ArchonAlarion]

Ni-ENTj

so bad.

[strrrng]

lol

[olduser]

If Ashton used Fe, it would certainly be Beta-Fe. Personally, I think he enjoys that kind of thing; I think he enjoys stirring up conflict, for his own personal entertainment. I think he has the ability to rouse this same kind of conflict-admiration in other people. This doesn't necessarily mean he's Fe ego, but it does mean he prefers Se/Ni over Ne/Si (although I don't think anyone, even he, doubts that). In my opinion, he's either Fe ego or Se ego; I see very little evidence for Te ego or his even giving a shit about Te.

i agree. i've long thought him to be an EIE or perhaps SLE. His whole attitude and how he attracts followers(sorry, but it is true) i think is more characteristic of beta.

[strrrng]

@glam: why would you take a post down just to avoid an argument? Unless it was of an inciting nature, in which case I could understand it. But, if you presented valid ideas, I don't see the point in removing them just so someone else doesn't bitch at you; it's not like you're obliged to deal with those people anyway, if they're going to be like that. That being said, I guess an Ashton type debate is pretty pointless.

Good use of Ni, and yeah, you're right. But you got a bucket of kool points for speaking your mind but if you don't feel comfortable putting it up, I don't blame you. We don't want another hissy fit. In the end, I am sure the followers won't change their minds.

Don't know what she said, but you might want to refrain from labeling the people who don't brand him a beta as "followers." I am not friends with him, nor do I really talk to him, yet I am still certain of my Ni-ENTj typing of him. Didn't Allie just make a post to you about not presuming to know things you don't? You might want to heed that advice, since you're doing it again.

You know, I know I am like REALLY ignorant about the collective mindset but I wonder if recent confrontations like with Warlord being LII and some stuff if that has anything to do with enforcing the consensus on the other forum.

The "confrontation" with warlord had to do with me and calenwen, as far as I can remember. And it wasn't even a real debate.

It's sad to think that I am now waking up to this. I feel so naive...maybe I have Te PoLR afterall...hah. Jk. Lame joke.

You're just waking up to this? Then how do you understand enough to label people followers? If you feel naive, chances you are. And in that case, it's best to keep comments to yourself until you get your information straight.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

You think Ezra is an ethical type?

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

Don't worry, I'll put you out of your misery some day.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

Do you know what that means in English

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

It means I'm going to kill you.