the difference between a Gamma perspective on life and a Delta perspective

[Joy]

"Life is what you make it." Meaning that we must always accept personal responsibility for our own lives... our happiness and wellbeing.


I could see some ILI's (or perhaps some LIE's who haven't had enough Gamma Se in their environment) needing a more Se explanation of this concept in order for it to click with them. But still, pretty much every Gamma I've known has felt this way to some extent.

And for the aforementioned Gamma NT's: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TfMKE5b1DyA

*****

This philosophy towards life doesn't seem to ring true with Deltas though...

An LSE may say "sure, whatever you say, Joy " (that is, if they're in a good mood)

An IEE may say "I see what you're saying, but what about *insert lots of Ne + Fi here*", or they may flat out disagree.

And the introverts would probably respond along the lines of " ", especially EII's. SLI's may also just flat out disagree.

[Joy]

Anyways, the Delta reactions I listed are pretty much guesses, based on my interactions with and observations of Deltas. I'm curious as to what the Gamma and Delta people here this of this perceived difference between our quadras.

[Not A Communist Shill]

[Joy]

If you've got a Se PoLR, I would anticipate a reaction as such (or something similar, at least).

[Not A Communist Shill]

I think I'm going to be sick.

[Joy]

That reaction is more typical of LII's than EII's, based on my interactions with them.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Not A Communist Shill]

I think we are responsible for our conscious actions to a certain degree, but these actions are heavily influenced by both the external and the internal world. The actions of one person can affect the actions of another, for one thing. I suppose not imposing my will on others is my choice, but really it isn't - people impose on me all the time, either forcing me to react negatively towards them or making me grin and bear it. This can make me very sad, and I don't really choose to be that way. So there.

[Slacker]

You say people should always accept personal responsibility for their lives, bu they aren't always personally responsible for what's happened to them, or at least for everything that's happened to them. Sometimes all people can do is muddle through the best that they can with what they've been handed.

I don't like the phrase "personal responsibility" the way it's used in the world these days. It seems to mean something like, "you're in this on your own" and I don't want the world to be like that. We aren't a bunch of individuals floating around unrelated.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Slacker]

Actually we are a bunch of individuals. IME that's the main difference I have with all the deltas here, and also IRL that I've known. There's a community-mindedness present in delta that I don't share.

Yes, we are individuals, but that wasn't my whole sentence.

[Joy]

I fully believe in personal responsibility for one's actions, and that we are responsible for what we do in our lives. However, it gets carried too far when you start blaming people for things that are out of their control. There's a huge difference in taking responsibility for yourself and expecting others to do the same vs. placing blame/holding something over someone's head.

There is an element of humanity that I appreciate with the delta approach, as in they're willing to help a person without telling the person, "Hey man, you did this to yourself." That attitude also gets carried way too far though. They have a tendency to coddle and enable and actually harm people through being over-caring and merciful, rather than seeing the long-range effects of their actions.

I agree, there needs to be a balance.

Actually we are a bunch of individuals. IME that's the main difference I have with all the deltas here, and also IRL that I've known. There's a community-mindedness present in delta that I don't share.

Good point. The same applies to Beta as well though.

You say people should always accept personal responsibility for their lives, bu they aren't always personally responsible for what's happened to them, or at least for everything that's happened to them. Sometimes all people can do is muddle through the best that they can with what they've been handed.

I don't like the phrase "personal responsibility" the way it's used in the world these days. It seems to mean something like, "you're in this on your own" and I don't want the world to be like that. We aren't a bunch of individuals floating around unrelated.

This is the Ne + Fi I was talking about.

I don't disagree with you. Where ever a person is is just where that person is, and there's nothing wrong with that. I do believe that in order to improve their situation they will need to take personal responsibility for their lives though.

I think we are responsible for our conscious actions to a certain degree, but these actions are heavily influenced by both the external and the internal world. The actions of one person can affect the actions of another, for one thing. I suppose not imposing my will on others is my choice, but really it isn't - people impose on me all the time, either forcing me to react negatively towards them or making me grin and bear it. This can make me very sad, and I don't really choose to be that way. So there.

You are the only one who can think and feel your thoughts and emotions. You are the only one who can decide how you will think and feel.

I do realize that what I'm saying right now rubs a lot of people the wrong way, hence this topic.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't know really. I guess our focus on Si makes a difference, yeah? It's interesting how Gamma focus on Se maybe makes them similar to Beta?

[Joy]

I don't know really. I guess our focus on Si makes a difference, yeah? It's interesting how Gamma focus on Se maybe makes them similar to Beta?

In a way this is probably more of a Se/Ni vs. Si/Ne thing than a Gamma vs. Delta thing, but to say that in my initial post would have clouded the topic because I've have to worry about accommodating Fe/Ti vs. Fi/Te in my posts as well.

Anyways, I think it has as much to do with Ne as it does Si. Or perhaps it's just the lack of valuing Se? There's a Ni aspect to it too though, but it's not as clear.

[Joy]

btw, I haven't met/talked to a single IEI that I think would agree that "life is what you make it".

[Not A Communist Shill]

You are the only one who can think and feel your thoughts and emotions. You are the only one who can decide how you will think and feel.

This does not mean that I choose my thoughts and emotions. Also, the decisions I make based on my thoughts and emotions are not autonomous - I cannot really escape my own mindset. If I act contrary to my thoughts and emotions, there must have been some impulse for me to do so.

[Ezra]

As a Se valuing individual, I agree with this statement, but not to its extreme. I'm pretty right wing, politically; I think people are naturally unequal and there's little one can do about it. Hence, I've got a driving force in life to remain on top of myself, and of society. I suppose any self-respecting Se valuer would agree that they'd rather not live a laid-back, ambitionless life of doing whatever is most comfortable. Not that I have a huge problem with Si valuers, it's just I think that they are the kind of people I don't want to become. I'm even prepared to accept that they haven't got life "wrong"; it's simply that they're different. Their way of life is more suited to them, and the Se way of life is more suited to me and other Betas and Gammas.

[Ezra]

Good topic by the way, Joy. You've exhaled a bit of life into the forum.

[redbaron]

btw, I haven't met/talked to a single IEI that I think would agree that "life is what you make it".

LOL Well you're right there. I dislike the line for the same reasons as Slacker Mom.

[aka-kitsune]

btw, I haven't met/talked to a single IEI that I think would agree that "life is what you make it".

I admit, I have immediate resistance to that statement on a personal level. And while I do realize that it must be possible to change your attitude about anything, I can't usually just force myself to do it. I don't believe you can always just "make" things happen, just like you can't "make" adverse situations just go away. But perhaps it's just me that tends to feel ineffectual and easily daunted when I am faced with barriers.

Acceptance is often very difficult and I don't let things go easily. I'm not really good at "spin" or reframing my outlook...

[munenori2]

It's funny, because I liked Rocky Balboa and that speech in particular, but I suppose I interpreted the themes differently. I do agree that it's a gamma speech (as well Joy's thinking this more an Si/Ne issue), however my impressions are a lot more towards what Subterranean or Slacker Mom have said.

[munenori2]

I suppose any self-respecting Se valuer would agree that they'd rather not live a laid-back, ambitionless life of doing whatever is most comfortable. Not that I have a huge problem with Si valuers, it's just I think that they are the kind of people I don't want to become. I'm even prepared to accept that they haven't got life "wrong"; it's simply that they're different.

Ezra was must be feeling generous today!

[redbaron]

Ezra was must be feeling generous today!

[force my hand]

I agree quite strongly with, 'life is what you make it'.

There are many things you do not have control over, but there are also many things that will happen for you if you're in the right frame of mind to enact those opportunities (consciously or unconsciously).

For those things you don't have control over, a large part of it is up to you how you want to be affected. Because out of over six billion people on this planet, the only person who actually cares and has the power to affect your state of mind is you. So you can mope around always looking for a savior and then feeling left behind when it turns out no one gives a fuck, or you can provide for yourself what you've been expecting others to do.

[force my hand]

Since Expat mentioned Marcus Aurelius a few months back, I bought a copy of Meditations and am constantly amazed at how often I will find the themes of my own thoughts being repeated to me from the page. I think this topic factors heavily into the whole Stoic thing.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

'Life is what you make it' - what do we want to make it? ENFp Ne can come in handy for ISTp there. Do delta's in general know what they want to make it, gammas do? (sorry if this has post of been answered already)

Even if I know what I want, I may still not get it, because fate deals, or I'm not good enough

[FDG]

Life is what you make it is something really vague. While it is generally true for a person living under a democratic system which also entails the possibility of financial aid, it misses the (frequently big) element of chance that causes variance towards the upper and the lower bound. Say you're handicapped, say you're living under a regime, say you have extremely strict parents as opposed to very libertine ones. When i was 18, I could cycle up and down the hills and then go studying and go out with my gf at night, while Joy was a pregnant stripper. Clearly my life was better, but I'd never say it's because I decided to make it such and she decided to make it such.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I agree quite strongly with, 'life is what you make it'.

There are many things you do not have control over, but there are also many things that will happen for you if you're in the right frame of mind to enact those opportunities (consciously or unconsciously).

For those things you don't have control over, a large part of it is up to you how you want to be affected. Because out of over six billion people on this planet, the only person who actually cares and has the power to affect your state of mind is you. So you can mope around always looking for a savior and then feeling left behind when it turns out no one gives a fuck, or you can provide for yourself what you've been expecting others to do.

There are loads of people who are able to affect my state of mind without even knowing me. Also, someone might mope around because of all the bad things that happen to other people, let alone themselves. Such a person doesn't choose these things to happen, and there is little they can do about it.

[leckysupport]

"Life is what you make it." Meaning that we must always accept personal responsibility for our own lives... our happiness and wellbeing.

I'm not a fan of motivational, overly positive, overly simplistic, unatural and unrealistic statements.

It has truth to it, but you would have to be a idiot to follow it word for word.

[force my hand]

There are loads of people who are able to affect my state of mind without even knowing me. Also, someone might mope around because of all the bad things that happen to other people, let alone themselves. Such a person doesn't choose these things to happen, and there is little they can do about it.

I don't agree that one's emotional state is completely restricted to objects and events external to them. Do they factor heavily into our quality of life? Yes, of course! I am not saying that we have complete control over our emotional state, but as a general rule (for most of us with 'normal' lives), we have a great deal of control. Often, however, we let ourselves be affected to an extent that is detrimental.

I think I am far more happy and satisfied than people who stress out about what they have no control over. And it doesn't mean I'm automatically irresponsible either, because I've actually reasoned my way through it.

[force my hand]

According to you, both sets of people chose to be that way.

Why don't you think that's the case?

[Not A Communist Shill]

Why don't you think that's the case?

If people followed your advice and didn't stress about what they have no control over, then it would be one more thing they would have no control over.

[JuJu]

I agree quite strongly with, 'life is what you make it'.

There are many things you do not have control over, but there are also many things that will happen for you if you're in the right frame of mind to enact those opportunities (consciously or unconsciously).

For those things you don't have control over, a large part of it is up to you how you want to be affected. Because out of over six billion people on this planet, the only person who actually cares and has the power to affect your state of mind is you. So you can mope around always looking for a savior and then feeling left behind when it turns out no one gives a fuck, or you can provide for yourself what you've been expecting others to do.

I agree with this very strongly.

As to whether we have the power to control our own emotional states--yes. However, I'd add that this is often a coping mechanism that some learn with age, experience, or otherwise, and some never learn... (Most likely, we all know people who have never learned this.) For me, there are still situations that get me bent of out shape every now and then, of course--but for the most part, I've found that putting them in perspective helps a great deal.

So in this sense, life is defnitely what you make it... Good post.

[force my hand]

If people followed your advice and didn't stress about what they have no control over, then it would be one less thing they would have no control over.

I'm not sure entirely what you're trying to say - I'm having difficulty following the wordplay.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I meant to say 'more', not 'less'.

Basically, some people give orders, others follow them. People can 'choose' when they should give orders and when they follow them, but really, most people most of the time either follow their natural disposition or they react to pressure from others.

[force my hand]

I meant to say 'more', not 'less'.

Basically, some people give orders, others follow them. People can 'choose' when they should give orders and when they follow them, but really, most people most of the time either follow their natural disposition or they react to pressure from others.

True, but there's a point where you can reflect and decide the merit of your own emotions. Is it worthwhile freaking out about global warming? Probably not - I can't do a damn thing, so I'm not going to let fear affect my state of mind.

Is my boss being a dick? Well, he probably is a dick, but getting bummed out about the situation is not going to change it. Maybe he's just a miserable, worthless human being, and do I really want to be the kind of person who is affected by those kinds of people? Not worth it.

I can come up with example after example. Yeah, I'm not going to be successful in every case, or extreme cases, but I can try, right?

[Not A Communist Shill]

You had no personal responsibility in your own birth! I want you to all hold that thought. But really, it's your choice. Although if you have already read that sentence, you would have inevitably held that thought, possibily against your own volition!

[redbaron]

True, but there's a point where you can reflect and decide the merit of your own emotions. Is it worthwhile freaking out about global warming? Probably not - I can't do a damn thing, so I'm not going to let fear affect my state of mind.

Is my boss being a dick? Well, he probably is a dick, but getting bummed out about the situation is not going to change it. Maybe he's just a miserable, worthless human being, and do I really want to be the kind of person who is affected by those kinds of people? Not worth it.

I can come up with example after example. Yeah, I'm not going to be successful in every case, or extreme cases, but I can try, right?

Maybe we're talking about maturity. Learning to deal with one's emotional response to things. That can be a lifelong process and some are better at it to begin with than others.

[force my hand]

You had no personal responsibility in your own birth! I want you to all hold that thought. But really, it's your choice. Although if you have already read that sentence, you would have inevitably held that thought, possibily against your own volition!

Sure, but did it evoke any emotional reaction in me? Confusion, perhaps, for a moment, but I would ask myself how exactly does the nature of one's birth affect their ability to interact with the events of their life, and the recognize it for a statement that can be ignored. I feel exactly the same way I did 2 minutes ago.

[redbaron]

You had no personal responsibility in your own birth! I want you to all hold that thought. But really, it's your choice. Although if you have already read that sentence, you would have inevitably held that thought, possibily against your own volition!

My version of "life is what you make of it" is more like this: "do the best you can with the cards you've been dealt."