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Thread: Differences between LIIs-INTjs and EIIs-INFjs

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    Default Differences between LIIs-INTjs and EIIs-INFjs


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    INTjs use logic more.

    INFjs use ethics more.

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    Strong, confident logic. System thinking. Skill to separate the main thing from the secondary. Scrupulousness in the study of facts, the skill to see the connection between them. Bringing in all into the system. Organization of structural order. Rationality, accuracy, systematization, consistency. Analytical turn of mind. Skill in everything to find cause-effect connection tendency toward the abstract, system thinking. Skill to separate the main thing from the secondary. Theorisation, tendency toward the mental labour, the construction of abstract models.



    Natural and complete understanding of the nature of the relations between any people, their sympathies and antipathies. A fundamental understanding of moral and ethical aspects of life. Skill to understand desires and interests of people. Mercy, benevolence, tact. Excellent understanding of the diverse subtleties of interrelations between the people, error-free understanding of their relation to itself. Idea about the life as about the battlefield of good and evil. Tendency to eradicate evil, moralist, maximalist (as opposed to minimalist), moral cleanliness.

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    Creepy-msk

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    agree with discojoe

    but erm

    yeah


    i think when i think INFj, i think of someone who is depressed, or acts this way. They often seem tortured. I think INTjs seem like this too, but in a different way. haha yeah different types are different lala

    but i think the lookalike description is pretty good for this, maybe cos i am an INTj and have close friends who are INFj. i think they act similarly, it will just matter different things to them. hows that for grammar miss linguist. I also like how it would have been much easier just to edit what i wrote but i just dont feel like it.

    and even though i go on about how INTjs are not emotionally cold, i think that INFjs are extremely sensitive. So a Te definition would be all the cliches of a sensitive person.

    er..............................

    that probably didnt help, but i think its true they act the same a lot of the time. Maybe a Te definition isnt the most helpful?

    anyway youre cute

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    I know I know!

    INFJs have social skills.

    INFJs are a bit more amiable and more likely to be sociable, but not quite as "brainy."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  6. #6
    Creepy-msk

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I know I know!

    INFJs have social skills.

    INFJs are a bit more amiable and more likely to be sociable, but not quite as "brainy."
    yeah like they wont f*cking argue about some silly minutiae. They also wouldnt use the word "minutiae" as much as an INTj.

    The INFjs i know are: appreciative of art, interested in human relations, interested in harmony, good listeners, don't judge people, love animals. IF they are upset they'll go away for a few days, or for a whole night. They will like music but can be not as naturally good at producing it as others. They can also show their Ne a lot through art and the way they speak, but i think if i had to pick something definitive id say they care a lot about other people and are good listeners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    intjs don't get upset with criticism as easily do they? (outwardly that is) and they don't give you the silence treatment like infjs, right?

    like, if an intj is ignoring you it's because they're in their own head or whatever, detached from reality. if an infj is ignoring you it's punishment? is this how it works?

    seriously you guys i wish i could be infj/isfj (i guess isfjs do this, too, but they actually say "hey quit being a prick," right? awesome.) but i have difficulty intentionally giving people the silence treatment (people i know well/am attached to especially.)

    and i also gather that infjs are a lot more self conscious about their appearance (like other dominant types, mercutio said something about dominant types sort of coming off as masochistic, inasmuch as what motivates them.)


    this leads me to believe that i am definitely a sensor. /:

    infjs are not dominant but rather auxiliary, in socionics anyway since this is kinda socionics oriented forum. Also it depends what exactly do you mean by "their appearance".

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    I have long-term, close-range experience with an INTj and INFj, so let's see what I can come up with.

    The INTj's social relations are on the whole calm and constant. He is submissive amongst most people, and this trait allows him to obtain good relations with everyone. He is intelligent and detached from most social expectancies, and he dresses in a way that attracts the least amount of attention from others, yet still doesn't make him look "somewhat strange". He has this air of extreme rationalism, alot like Brian off of Family Guy. He is less critical than an INTp, and you almost never feel threatened to allow him to see what you like, how you act, and what you want to do with yourself in the future. He is very non-judgmental, but he still dislikes stupidity.

    The INFj comes across as a completely different entity. In comfortable social settings, including one-on-one dialogues, he comes off almost as an attention-starved performing monkey, acting in eccentric ways and flooding you with his behavior if you even show the slightest amount of reinforcement (ESTjs seem to eat this stuff up.) He is highly obsessed with his image, to the point of being in love with it. He is highly immersed in most social expectancies, although he often comes across as somewhat awkward, almost like he "tries too hard". His social relations are highly varied. There are some who hate him, some who absolutely love him, and some who latch onto him and never let go. His intelligence is strange and annoying to alot of people. He seems to have a knack for picking up random knowledge and half-truths. In conversation, he will often argue about many of your own premises and add highly questionable information to fill in the (supposed) gaps. So it goes without saying that discussion with him is extremely frustrating. He often likes to give advice, and many people even actively seek him for it. He is highly interested in people, and he knows more people than I could ever imagine. He is overly focused on others' weaknesses, which makes him almost impossible to impress. Although he is very easy to talk about feelings and emotions with.

    So on the whole, the INFj is more outward and strange than the INTj, and the INTj is easier and calmer to be around than the INFj.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Wow that was fast. Are you married to you comp or something?

    would be pumped up muscles and expensive clothes. not infj

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    People often seek me out simply so they can divulge something they've been "hankering" to get off their chest, thus corroborating Cone's observations of individuals feeling rather unthreatened around INTjs.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    WOW. Some of the descriptions of the INFj you gave were very revealing of your relationship with them.
    Yes, I know. But it's very difficult to give a full, objective account of someone, since so much of what you know about a person is how he reacts to you.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Creepy-msk

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    People often seek me out simply so they can divulge something they've been "hankering" to get off their chest, thus corroborating Cone's observations of individuals feeling rather unthreatened around INTjs.
    yeah me too......

    one of my friends' parents would disclose stuff to me and then hang up with their spouse came home. I guess it makes some sense though since their problems were with their child (my friend) and i would have a different perspective. and they probably wanted someone to vent to outside their family. Anyway, point is i dont really judge about much.

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    @Cone

    I think your INFj vs. INTj post says so much more about you than it does either of those types.

    I would not like to believe that anyone is so desperate and unpopular that they would just take any friend they can get but I keep wondering why you would have a friend you persistently write so negatively about and sometimes seem a bit envious of and fixated on?
    I accurately predicted as soon as I saw this topic that it would not be long before you came spurting forth the usual.

    Most of the things that I sometimes waste my time bothering to read that you write about your friend seem so much more bias and malicious than actually friendly. Maybe friendship means something very different to INTps or maybe just Cone.

    Less importantly, like Curious Soul, I have doubts that your friend is an INFj. There is no need that I can see to challenge the points you raised about INFjs generally. After all, they are merely your opinions and probably not much else beyond that.

    I am more interested in what Discojoe or Topaz has to say about INFjs, good or horrible they seem to know this type extremely well.

    P.S I live with an INTp and one day if I can be bothered, I will write some sort of assessment of not mainly the weaknesses I see in him but also about a lot of his strengths... this to me would be more balanced and fairer.

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    I thought the INFjs would be pissed at me.

    So I have decided to admit defeat. There's so much good that he has done for me, and that is why we are still friends, but there is mutual damage done to both sides. I don't know, I think we're both insecure about something. Like I said, he's impossible to impress, as nothing I do is good enough for him. How am I supposed to say good things about him when he never acknowledges anything I do? Ugh, I feel like a child complaining about his father. Ok, perhaps I accent his weaknesses way too much, but for christ's sake, realize that I am not the only sick, immoral bastard on the planet! Shall I sugarcoat my INFj description like everyone else does? Does complaining about something really make me an insecure person?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    please don't. that was basically exactly the description i was looking for and the most helpful infj description i have seen so far. it's not like there isn't an "uncovered" for every type.
    Thanks, implied, I can always count on you for support.

    As for the rest of you, perhaps we should just stand where we are, as we obviously seem to be coming from different points of view. Perhaps I've hit harder than I should have, but I must stand by my view. Relations are nothing more than realizing potentials.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    @ implied
    I hate to disagree with you as I often share your observations. I think Cone has acknowledged that his post in question has been exaggerated due to personal reasons. I do not believe that you have correctly observed an actual INFj closely, I have read many of your post on this matter and I am still waiting to see any person described that sounds like an INFj. You even once said INFjs were inclined to be practical... that is like a big joke. I just ignored that.
    INFjs tend to be more in touch with their flaws/weaknesses than you can ever image. INFjs know it when they see it even if they have never previously acknowledged or recognized it. INFjs like to "confess" to personal flaws (to themselves) so that they can attempt to fix them.

    Like when discojoe talked of buying his father a utilitarian type of gift because apparently INFjs like that. As offensive as that sounded at first, I instantly knew his father was indeed an INFj. Or when Topaz talked of INFj's secretly liking rebellious people who act out their(INFj) repressions a lot, I would not generally admit this, but I knew that it was likely that he was in close contact with an INFj to know that. No INFj would ever willingly tell you that. How many INFjs here could honestly say that they take of and go to parties if they are upset enough like Cone's friend does?


    @maizemedley
    I think I agree with many of your observations.


    @Cone

    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    I thought the INFjs would be pissed at me.

    Yes, but perhaps you figured that you would be ignored like all the other times. Generally, there is a trend here among certain people to "pick" on types they figure will not hit back or have few or no representatives here.

    I don't know, I think we're both insecure about something. Like I said, he's impossible to impress, as nothing I do is good enough for him.
    I am sure if he is really an INFj then he must be impressed by quite a few things about you if he persists in being your friend. Not all INFjs find it comfortable to express compliments even if they are thinking many good things about a person. This is a flaw common to INFjs and others.


    How am I supposed to say good things about him when he never acknowledges anything I do? Ugh, I feel like a child complaining about his father. Ok, perhaps I accent his weaknesses way too much, but for christ's sake, realize that I am not the only sick, immoral bastard on the planet! Shall I sugarcoat my INFj description like everyone else does? Does complaining about something really make me an insecure person
    Why do you so badly want to impress him?
    Most likely he is secretly admiring you. This introduces us to a second INFj flaw which is the secret insecurity about expressing compliments to some people. I note and admire many things about INTps here and in real life. I often do not know how to say it in case it comes out "wrong" or insincere sounding. Things like you are often very funny without even trying to be and your grammar and punctuation is near flawless. I have noted and marvelled at how you accomplish these things on many occasions. Of course, praise seem like it could be something that INTps don't welcome as much or I might think that the things I really admire about INTps may not be that important to them. I am now even marvelling at how you have managed to neutralize the force of my little attack. If I decide to leave my "resting state" I am not usually as quick to go back to it.

    I do not think INFjs are sugar coated here. If you were an INFj you would probably really dislike being considered passive, always serious, outwardly cold and the repressed librarian, all giving, all loving, absolutely not cool type.

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    there's someone i know that sounds like INFj from cone's description. but i'm not sure as i don't know him that well to type him.

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    At maizemedley

    I think if Cone's friend is an INFj then you might be correct in observing that it is a relations of benefit issue. I think exactly the same thing that Cone has written about my ISFp friend. If self-control did not restrain me, then I would be here bitching constantly about her stupidity, avoidance, passivity and not complimenting me on my "greatness" . Of course when I leave emotions out of it and look at all of her qualities, I feel better about her and her skills and abilities.

    In fact I am still wondering if Cone's friend is not one of those ISFps that people confuse with INFjs.

    I like and admire INTps but I would probably never be close friends with one.

    @ implied
    Yes, I do believe INFjs like when people who give to charity if the giving actually means something and it is not done for reputation or gain. Anonymous giving is generally best in my opinion.

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    @implied

    If an INFj was your close friend it is likely that you might be burdened with having to supply frequent critical appraisals of him/her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by nobrainer
    Wow that was fast. Are you married to you comp or something?

    would be pumped up muscles and expensive clothes. not infj
    YES infj.

    the point is that weak sensing makes people weird about their appearance. if you're weirded out about your appearance you're more likely to work on it actively.

    note that a lot of the type descriptions on socionics.com that are supposed to take great care of their appearance are generally intuitive types, not sensing types.
    ENFj or ENTj yes, INFj or INTj no. The latter more affected about

    But hey, take the wheel - you're the expert

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    Two of my closest friends are INFjs (I'm reasonably sure of their type) and what I found oddest about Cone's description is this:


    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    His intelligence is strange and annoying to alot of people. He seems to have a knack for picking up random knowledge and half-truths. In conversation, he will often argue about many of your own premises and add highly questionable information to fill in the (supposed) gaps.
    I never saw any evidence of that. The two INFjs I know are very knowledgeable but very aware of the limits of their own knowledge, and very willing to absorb new facts and ideas when presented to them. If they have "highly questionable information" - like everyone does, on occasion - they are also open to listen to factual evidence that will correct that, and very easily.

    I never thought their intelligence was "strange" or "annoying" - the only annoying thing about them is a tendency to try to guess my "secret" emotional motivations when making an objective statement about someone or something.

    And I think that's a clue when telling INTjs apart from INFJs: an INTj is less likely to make assumptions about one's secret emotional motivations.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    The thing I've noticed about INFj's is that they don't like people assuming what is going on in their heads. They don't like that people "view" them a certain way good or bad. they prefer to simply be asked to give a description themselves.
    I hate it when people assume things about me, or when they have "theories" or "ideas" about who I am and why I act like I do, or when they have any kinds of "views" about me at all. I didn't think it had anything to do with type?

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Yes, I do believe INFjs like when people who give to charity if the giving actually means something and it is not done for reputation or gain. Anonymous giving is generally best in my opinion.
    I so agree. Charity is often a greater benefit to the giver in terms of "prestige" which reflects into other gains.

    I like and admire INTps but I would probably never be close friends with one
    Aww, why so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Why do you so badly want to impress him?
    Because he tends to allow me little room for self-worth, constantly arguing over every little bit of knowledge I try to teach him about and overadvertising his own skills and abilities. Truthfully, I think this is the biggest (and perhaps only) irk I have about him.

    Also, I know he does admire me in some way (he kind of hinted towards it one day), however his behavior makes me wonder how he could ever admire me. And I'm not even sure I really show him anything that he could possibly acknowledge. Yet, he seems to want me as a friend much more than I want him as a friend (as sorry as I am to say that.) I don't really get it much. But perhaps I'm not supposed to?

    But once again, I must stand by my description. Perhaps it could act as a basis for an uncovered profile? Or perhaps it's still too biased? Could you point out where I perhaps may be biased?

    @Expat: My observation is not a personal bias. Many people would agree with me on his behavior. It stems from the motive of wanting to help people, which one would easily surmise as being .
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah cone is not being an ass.

    i mean, look at this:

    delta has negative Ne. so infjs have this:

    * estimation and the skill to recognize the negative potential qualities of people, their possibility.
    * the multiplan perception of peace, man.
    * the skill to see the absence of essence, to evaluate the lack of promise of potential possibilities, ideas and undertakings.
    * search and the vision of alternatives.
    * the paradoxicalness of thinking.
    * the dimensionality of thinking, erection as the chief concern of the forgotten old (ordinary), abstract theoretization.
    * black humor, disbelief.
    * the suppression of radical conversions.
    * sensation.
    particularly, delta has social, negative .

    so you'll hear a lot of "it's not there. you don't have it." out of delta nf's. you guys have heard enfps do this, i know. that sounds pessimistic and hard as hell to please, imo, although they may not even realize that it sounds that way. i am figuring it's meant to sound like a challenge, some reverse psychology.

    alpha has positive Ne.

    that means an intj has:

    # estimation and the skill to recognize the positive potential qualities of individual person, his possibility.
    # estimation and the skill to recognize prospect, potential possibilities of the concrete oveshchestvlennykh ideas and undertakings.
    # the ability to see essence and principles of the concrete oveshchestvlennykh ideas and theories, the vision of their variability and the skill to make optimum selection.
    # aim to the novelty, the hypothetical nature, the originality, the unusualness.
    # adaptability to the faith and the idealism.

    # the spontaneity of thinking.
    # tendency toward the radical conversions.
    # everyday insight.
    so you see why the entps/intjs get the "don quixote" sort of head in the clouds label. i mean they can seem really optimistic (whether they are really optimistic i don't know, they seem to have a lot of rises & falls.) and why an intj would be seen as easier to get along with socially.

    as strange as that sounds.
    Where did you get the social negative ne theory from?It does sound strange. The intj good friend i know never seemed or tried to seem optimistic. He would rather be real as opposed to fake.The entp's i know may seem optimistic but not the intj. Actually when growing up as childhood friends when wewould say " lets go get" the intj to join us in an activity my entp friend would complain about the intj's negativity and pessimism. In our teen years the opposite sex would find him attractive and very interested having a relationship with him untill they got to know him better. Then they complain to a mutual friend of ours that the intj was too negative and too serious for them to take to to a boyfriend -girlfriend relationship.. He had a hard time understanding that people especially the opposite sex didn't want to be around a pessimistic person or a person who could not lighten up a female's day with some optimism. Around us he was cool and could lighten up and have fun and laugh but when it came to the opposite sex socially they found him very uncomfortable to be with.If anyone had negative social ne it was him.He could see the negative potential qualities of a person or situation so he would try to correct it.Girls found that as a put off. They didn't want to be around a guy that was always trying to fix them instead of letting them be them and accepting them as they are flaws in all.Thats the opposite of an enfp in my opinion.If anything we see positve potential in people and have firm faith in the positive potential qualities we believe a person possess. positive ne

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    @Cone

    Because he tends to allow me little room for self-worth, constantly arguing over every little bit of knowledge I try to teach him about and overadvertising his own skills and abilities. Truthfully, I think this is the biggest (and perhaps only) irk I have about him.
    Could you be having a comparative relationship with this person? Your relationship sounds a bit like this to me http://www.socionics.com/rel/cmp.htm.

    Regardless, why are you trying to teach him when he so obviously does not want to learn from you?

    Also, maybe trying to impress him will not work. I have never been impressed by anyone who has tried to impress me.

    Also, I know he does admire me in some way (he kind of hinted towards it one day), however his behavior makes me wonder how he could ever admire me. And I'm not even sure I really show him anything that he could possibly acknowledge. Yet, he seems to want me as a friend much more than I want him as a friend (as sorry as I am to say that.) I don't really get it much. But perhaps I'm not supposed to?
    Whatever this person's type you really do not seem to understand them or their values very well hence why you are not seeing what he could be valuing/acknowledging about you. I believe you when you say you are insecure, you seem to be seeking some sort of external validation from this person and because you are not getting that from him you are angry with him. I think it might be this anger and arrogance that you have towards him that has influenced you to speak here constantly about him even though you claim not to be that interested in him. At one point, I swear I almost thought you had a crush on him. These are just my evaluations. I am no psychologist, but I figure that if you felt better about your own strengths and abilities then this person's impression of you would not be so important.


    But once again, I must stand by my description. Perhaps it could act as a basis for an uncovered profile? Or perhaps it's still too biased? Could you point out where I perhaps may be biased?
    Your description seems to have come from a place of frustration rather than fairness to me. For that reason it is perhaps not that valuable if one is seeking a bias free evaluation. Also, I do not think it can be a starting point for any uncovered profile. It is just your one opinion based mainly (perhaps even solely) on this one person.
    Is it me or do you seem to have this desire to show him up and prove to the world the many horrible qualities "INFjs" really have?
    You seem to have implied in one of your previous post that INFjs are getting away with a good reputation while INTps are being thought of as bastards. However, I think most people already at least suspect that there is good and bad things about every individual person specifically and every type generally.


    @Expat: My observation is not a personal bias. Many people would agree with me on his behavior.
    Not Expat, but like I said, I think your observations are biased. So far they have proven to be only or mainly your (tainted?)opinions and not much else. You have spoken of your insecurities and frustration with trying to impress him and I think you might be experiencing too much personal negativity with him to be unbiased yet. You believe him to be an INFj, myself and others who know INFjs do not believe that the person you are describing is one. Who knows and who cares who is right I am starting to wonder. I have come to know several (well three) people who I believe are of this type and none of them is very much like the person you described.

    Many people would agree with me on his behavior?
    Who are these many people who would agree with you anyway. You seem to want some type of gang to form against him.

    Also, why are you friends with him if you are having self-worth problems when dealing with him. My unsolicited advice is that you dump him mercifully and quickly. He will find other friends but then should you really care? Like you said, you are not as interested in him anyway... right?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by baydog
    Where did you get the social negative ne theory from?It does sound strange.
    from the descriptions of +/- Ne. it's only because delta has Ne + Fi versus Ne + Ti.


    The intj good friend i know never seemed or tried to seem optimistic. He would rather be real as opposed to fake.The entp's i know may seem optimistic but not the intj. Actually when growing up as childhood friends when wewould say " lets go get" the intj to join us in an activity my entp friend would complain about the intj's negativity and pessimism.
    are you sure your friend is entp/the guy is intj? because intjs and entps together are pretty much happier than pigs in shit. that's the identity relation so you have these two people who have pretty much the same frame of mind. it's the self-affirmation relationship.

    Around us he was cool and could lighten up and have fun and laugh but when it came to the opposite sex socially they found him very uncomfortable to be with.If anyone had negative social ne it was him.He could see the negative potential qualities of a person or situation so he would try to correct it.Girls found that as a put off. They didn't want to be around a guy that was always trying to fix them instead of letting them be them and accepting them as they are flaws in all.Thats the opposite of an enfp in my opinion.If anything we see positve potential in people and have firm faith in the positive potential qualities we believe a person possess. positive ne
    so they have bad social lives but i don't see them as just being continually depressed. more like very socially detached.
    But you just said "intj would be seen as easier to get along with socially. "but from personal experience and what i been reading from here from many posts they have trouble getting along with people socially because they are uncomfortable in social situations especially with the opposite sex. Where as the enfp as so much more at ease in getting along with people socially the opposite sex mistakenly assume the enfp has a romantic interest in them. Actually an entp - intj relationship would be a mirror relation not an identity relation but i understand what you mean. If that is your opinion that an intj is more easier to get along with socially i have no problem with it but for myself i have a hard time believing it. I would be very gratified if you can tell me any personal observations to support your beliefs. Thanks

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    Here's an amusing story about an Infj friend i known since childhood. He had a problem of making others uncomfortable in social setttings because he would just watch and stare at folks, that at one point him and a bunch other friends had to flee for their personal safety from a movie theatre. My Infj had the bad habit of staring at people for too long in a way it made people very uncomfortable. One night he and few of my friends( an intj, enfj, infp, entp, and enfp) went to see a movie when they was 17 or 18 years old. In my culture it is not a good idea to keep staring at someone , for myself for another guy to keep staring at me i would think he is gay or he has a problem with me.From what my friends told me as they were finished watching the movie and were walking outside to walk home somebody out of crowd a little bit from them yelled that 's the profanity blank blank guy right there. Right then and there a whole group of teenagers started running towards my other teenager friends.Sensing danger and seeing they were badly outnumbered my friends took off running from the busy shopping center across a busy intersection(luckily no one was hit by a car)towards the direction where we live. Happily to say my friends was too fast and had a enough distance on them that didnt get caught and get beat up. Even 2 and 3 years later after that incident they would talk about it ( lol, they would say "yo baydog it was about 20 or 30 or them muthuhfukuhs chasing us")and explain our friend started it unintentionally because he didn't know how to observe people properly without making them feel like something was wrong with them. I'm surprised my friends didnt' mention to him about not to stare at a person to long but i guess they didn't think they were going to might have to take a beatdown and run like hell for their safety because of that before the incident.

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    @Megan: He's INFj, you're right with your "psychoanalysis", and if you want it to be fair, then I would have to add all the other stuff I know about him, while keeping what I have already written. For you see, I'm not the only person who agrees with me (implied). But perhaps you won't stop until I renounce my stance? You have already turned the tables on me, making me look bad in comparison with my friend, and with no malicious intent loaded into that statement...perhaps we can all be friends?

    As for my irk about biased perceptions of type, perhaps. But that was not my initial intent. For it would be stupid to try an equalize the dilemma without realizing that I would be making myself look even more of an asshole.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I still want to know why one would not want to be a friend to an INTp. Seems like type bias and I hope Im wrong. I would hope that anyone is capable of giving a fair chance. To not seems totally lame, "Im sorry, I cannot be your friend as you are not a type that I prefer." /boggle Isnt that predjudice? I seriously dont understand and Im trying to think of a justification for it but I simply cant unless, say, one was highly traumatized (phsycially, verbally, sexually, etc) by another type. I'd understand the associations that would draw...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I still want to know why one would not want to be a friend to an INTp. Seems like type bias and I hope Im wrong. I would hope that anyone is capable of giving a fair chance. To not seems totally lame, "Im sorry, I cannot be your friend as you are not a type that I prefer." /boggle Isnt that predjudice? I seriously dont understand and Im trying to think of a justification for it but I simply cant unless, say, one was highly traumatized (phsycially, verbally, sexually, etc) by another type. I'd understand the associations that would draw...
    Well, it's like, would you want to be friends with a rapist, murderer, or child molester? It may work out initially, but eventually you get it in the ass or the back.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I still want to know why one would not want to be a friend to an INTp. Seems like type bias and I hope Im wrong. I would hope that anyone is capable of giving a fair chance. To not seems totally lame, "Im sorry, I cannot be your friend as you are not a type that I prefer." /boggle Isnt that predjudice? I seriously dont understand and Im trying to think of a justification for it but I simply cant unless, say, one was highly traumatized (phsycially, verbally, sexually, etc) by another type. I'd understand the associations that would draw...
    Well, it's like, would you want to be friends with a rapist, murderer, or child molester? It may work out initially, but eventually you get it in the ass or the back.
    What in the fuc...? Are you implying INTps are like that or are you implying that her relation to INTps would be like that. Either way, I find that silly-- fallacy: applying part to the whole as a congruent truth for the whole (I so could make a dirty joke with that one... but seriously, Preparation H is good on the whole).

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    *sigh* It's an analogy. It means that the specific relationship she would have with INTps would be strained and not in her best interest. And yes, in a way, the beneficiary can get "stabbed in the back" in one of these relations.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    @Megan: He's INFj, you're right with your "psychoanalysis", and if you want it to be fair, then I would have to add all the other stuff I know about him, while keeping what I have already written. For you see, I'm not the only person who agrees with me (implied). But perhaps you won't stop until I renounce my stance? You have already turned the tables on me, making me look bad in comparison with my friend, and with no malicious intent loaded into that statement...perhaps we can all be friends?
    cone that's pretty much what i was thinking when i read megan's post. i don't know, the guy whose type i was questioning is definitely hung up on what is socially impressive.

    i agree with megan that infjs are more in touch with their weaknesses than "i could ever imagine." that's exactly their problem. it's like LET IT GO FOR FIVE SECONDS!!! you're not worthless if you make a C among 40 billion A+'s! i think if i am not praising him for every accomplishment, i'm upsetting him. i just wish he'd get his self-worth from something else is all.

    i mean you have to look at them in relation to their dual.

    estj's hidden agenda is "to be perfect." so of course they get along really well. if you have a mate who demands perfection out of themselves and other people, you better have a secret drive to be perfect yourself.
    About INFJs:

    Feeling isn't about "values", it's about relationships. Give and take. The values emerge from feeling's need to relate, accented by thinking. So an INFJ is always trying to be on even kilter with everybody. They are trying to maintain an even "give-and-take". When you act in a way that is not an even give-and-take with them, they look at it not from the immediate perspective of "you're not being fair" (like an S would do), but from the intuitive perspective that their communication pattern with the world around them is flawed. Since they are the masters of that pattern (in their own minds) then it seems to them that they are responsible for the communication breakdown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone View Post
    I have long-term, close-range experience with an INTj and INFj, so let's see what I can come up with.

    The INTj's social relations are on the whole calm and constant. He is submissive amongst most people, and this trait allows him to obtain good relations with everyone. He is intelligent and detached from most social expectancies, and he dresses in a way that attracts the least amount of attention from others, yet still doesn't make him look "somewhat strange". He has this air of extreme rationalism, alot like Brian off of Family Guy. He is less critical than an INTp, and you almost never feel threatened to allow him to see what you like, how you act, and what you want to do with yourself in the future. He is very non-judgmental, but he still dislikes stupidity.

    The INFj comes across as a completely different entity. In comfortable social settings, including one-on-one dialogues, he comes off almost as an attention-starved performing monkey, acting in eccentric ways and flooding you with his behavior if you even show the slightest amount of reinforcement (ESTjs seem to eat this stuff up.) He is highly obsessed with his image, to the point of being in love with it. He is highly immersed in most social expectancies, although he often comes across as somewhat awkward, almost like he "tries too hard". His social relations are highly varied. There are some who hate him, some who absolutely love him, and some who latch onto him and never let go. His intelligence is strange and annoying to alot of people. He seems to have a knack for picking up random knowledge and half-truths. In conversation, he will often argue about many of your own premises and add highly questionable information to fill in the (supposed) gaps. So it goes without saying that discussion with him is extremely frustrating. He often likes to give advice, and many people even actively seek him for it. He is highly interested in people, and he knows more people than I could ever imagine. He is overly focused on others' weaknesses, which makes him almost impossible to impress. Although he is very easy to talk about feelings and emotions with.

    So on the whole, the INFj is more outward and strange than the INTj, and the INTj is easier and calmer to be around than the INFj.
    Who are you and how do you know me ?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    Who are you and how do you know me ?!
    that's not how I am at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone View Post
    almost as an attention-starved performing monkey, acting in eccentric ways and flooding you with his behavior if you even show the slightest amount of reinforcement. He is highly obsessed with his image, to the point of being in love with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    Who are you and how do you know me ?!
    Really??

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    @Maritsa, my impression of you is someone who very much values their image. "There are some who hate him, some who absolutely love him, and some who latch onto him and never let go."
    Does this quote not apply to your experience here on the16types? From everything I have observed this is how people feel towards you. And over time how many members feel towards me.
    @Esaman, yes. This description is one of the more down to earth ones I have read about EII's. And LII's for that matter. The only part I personally disagree with is the part about being impressed. I am very impressed by people. With the exception being those super close to me. Then I often seem to hold those people to such high standards (the standards I set for myself and never quite reach) that it is impossible for them to reach and thus events often leave me unimpressed. Does my avatar look impressed?
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    @Wacey
    I have been assigning my straight out avoidance of being seen as trying to stick out or build an image/character to strong Se devaluing. Still do, actually.

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    @Esaman
    Is that not what INTj's are famous for? I am learning this is one reason the LII is orientated towards the Fe of their ESE dual, a person who creates a setting in which an LII does not need to create nor hide their image or character, they are simply free to be as they are.

    Se-devaluing plays out quite differently in FiNe base. Does cutting loose with close friends and a dual make me any less of an Se-devaluer? Or coveting an image of myself that I wish others would see? I think that is why it is such a relief to have a dual around to see past the equanimous persona. For the equanimity you see in EII is a persona half the time.

    It's appropriate we are having this discussion right now in a thread devoted to fleshing out the differences between EII and LII.
    Last edited by wacey; 12-11-2013 at 08:39 PM.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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