Britain's Got Talent

[EllaC]

Types of the judges?

Simon Cowell?
Piers Morgan?
Amanda Holden?

I do not watch this show, saw a clip and got interested

Picture: http://static.whatsontv.co.uk/images...sGotTalent.jpg
Amanda, Simon, Piers....

[Not A Communist Shill]

Piers Morgan might be a ENFj. I don't like him very much regardless .

[BLauritson]

I think Simon Cowell is generally considered ESI.

[Ritella]

bump. i love piers morgan! what type is he?

[Not A Communist Shill]

bump. i love piers morgan! what type is he?

I have thought ENFj...he might be likeable if he wasn't so tabloidy.

EDIT: oh lol, I've already said that!

[ArchonAlarion]

I believe Simon Cowell to be Ne INTj. Critical bastard, high standards, Si agenda, blah blah

Of course everyone here will be like "no no no, INTj's are scientists and ESI's are mean, so hes ESI, yadda yadda....."

Idc. He's Ne INTj. Same as freakin House.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I think Simon Cowell is fairly clearly not an INTj...he has too much of a presence that doesn't seem at all intuitive like, let alone anything resembling a Se PoLR.

[ArchonAlarion]

Because Se polr means something to you that it does not to me

Also being Ne INTj he is "counter-phobic" against Se, and that is a more aggressively combative against the polr, in this case Se.

So, because you equate certain things to Se that he apparently is not deficient in you will type him differently.

However, my definition of Se is not "Willpower, force, being loud, aggressive, mean, powerful, etc." so thats why we will not agree until we can have a common base to start from, IE: a common IME definition.

[Ritella]

I think Simon Cowell is fairly clearly not an INTj...he has too much of a presence that doesn't seem at all intuitive like, let alone anything resembling a Se PoLR.

I think Simon is obviously ESI, and that seems to be agreed upon in other threads, so...
WHAT TYPE IS PIERS???
I LOVE HIM

[ArchonAlarion]

I think Simon is obviously ESI, and that seems to be agreed upon in other threads, so...
WHAT TYPE IS PIERS???
I LOVE HIM

ad populum.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Because Se polr means something to you that it does not to me

Also being Ne INTj he is "counter-phobic" against Se, and that is a more aggressively combative against the polr, in this case Se.

So, because you equate certain things to Se that he apparently is not deficient in you will type him differently.

However, my definition of Se is not "Willpower, force, being loud, aggressive, mean, powerful, etc." so thats why we will not agree until we can have a common base to start from, IE: a common IME definition.

I believe I am an INTj-Ne subtype myself, and I am nothing like Simon Cowell. I think it is fair to say Simon Cowell does have many of the traits you mention, and I believe that the way he manifests those traits suggests he doesn't have a PoLR.

[Ritella]

ad populum.

no asshole.
there was an AND in that construction, one clause of which contained my own opinion. and it was obvious that i was typing them for my own benefit rather than constructing an argument that i could loudspeaker over the forum.

[ArchonAlarion]

I believe I am an INTj-Ne subtype myself, and I am nothing like Simon Cowell. I think it is fair to say Simon Cowell does have many of the traits you mention, and I believe that the way he manifests those traits suggests he doesn't have a PoLR.

Hah, than you've never come face to face with an Ne INTj nor do I think you are one, but w/e.

Its the Niffweed type, bud. Sharp, critical, amoral, rigid, a subdued zanyness. Obvious Fe seeking, downplayed due to general 5-ishness and shame over being helpless to Fe vibes. Although this is a state, which may or may not be gone through. Not saying that thats what Niff is doing, but Ive personally gone through something akin to that, and well Ti ENTp 6w5 here. But yep, so first source of upcoming flak, lets move to the second...

Ne isn't just about being a silly, creative, goof. Its a way of perceiving information. Its filters the input into Internal object statics. Basically breaking up things into concepts and reducing those parts into further concepts. Its like seeing things as made of words and ideas, the "inner forms" or "geometry" (although that may be specifically Alpha NT) of a thing. It makes things into non-things. Into pure abstractions. Without Si to build back these parts into a physical form Ne would be lost. Likewise, without Ne, the Si flow has no parts or individuals. It would be a churning mud of nothing. Nothing to separate one thing from another. No resolution, just blur.

So anyways, yeah. I like Simon Cowell, always have.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Hah, than you've never come face to face with an Ne INTj nor do I think you are one, but w/e.

Its the Niffweed type, bud. Sharp, critical, amoral, rigid, a subdued zanyness. Obvious Fe seeking, downplayed due to general 5-ishness and shame over being helpless to Fe vibes. Although this is a state, which may or may not be gone through. Not saying that thats what Niff is doing, but Ive personally gone through something akin to that, and well Ti ENTp 6w5 here. But yep, so first source of upcoming flak, lets move to the second...

Ne isn't just about being a silly, creative, goof. Its a way of perceiving information. Its filters the input into Internal object statics. Basically breaking up things into concepts and reducing those parts into further concepts. Its like seeing things as made of words and ideas, the "inner forms" or "geometry" (although that may be specifically Alpha NT) of a thing. It makes things into non-things. Into pure abstractions. Without Si to build back these parts into a physical form Ne would be lost. Likewise, without Ne, the Si flow has no parts or individuals. It would be a churning mud of nothing. Nothing to separate one thing from another. No resolution, just blur.

So anyways, yeah. I like Simon Cowell, always have.

There are many reasons to think that Niffweed is actually an INTp, and not an INTj, and I appreciate that you don't think that Ne isn't just about being a "silly creative goof". Even if Niffweed was an INTj-Ne and I was not, and still do not see the similarity between Niffweed and er Simon Cowell. It seems utterly bizarre that you could think Niffweed values , let alone .

[ArchonAlarion]

once again, has to do with the prevailing stereotypes of Si and Fe.

I've discussed this before with you (at least about Si). Its not about comfort its not about aesthetics (NECESSARILY). Its about a specific way of perceiving information. External field dynamics. Things that we perceive can be viewed in two main orientations: objects or fields.

Objects - a singular entity with a wider field set/context
Field - a set/context containing multiple object entities

So when Si looks at the human body (for instance), it will filter the information in a way that our bodily systems and processes become a moving summation. Like a flow of water or clouds. Its very organic, seeing multiple discrete external object processes (Te) tied together into a lump sum process or environment. A singular "field". The human body is an evolving system, ever changing, growing, constantly in motion, with all the parts in homeostatic unison. Its like a time lapse of a city being built or a child aging (?). Um, it tends to not focus on still details. More broad i guess.

So, Si of course is not limited in anyway to the human body, just like Ni is not limited to my sock draw, or Te to my left ballsack. Of course our bodies are the hub of our life, survival, and existence so ALL the IME's will focus on the self and its happiness, but Si is not the only one that cares, nor is it the only thing it cares about.

So that's an example for why I dont go by the stereotype stuff, and why I continue to type the way i do.

But I shouldn't derail the thread.

[Not A Communist Shill]

So in what way does Simon Cowell value over ?

When I've been unfortunate enough to see a programme he is in, he seems very domineering over the opinions of the other judges, not just verbally, but physically. He regularly attacks the appearance of contestants with confidence, and his level of bodily awareness makes PoLR seem incredibly unlikely.

[Ritella]

He regularly attacks the appearance of contestants with confidence, and his level of bodily awareness makes PoLR seem incredibly unlikely.

YES. it's funny that you say this, because I was watching American Idol with an ESE friend and Simon Cowell told a girl she was ugly. Both me and the friend were like "WTF?! I get when he is being honest and critical of the person's talent, but being that mean and critical of the person's appearance is completely uncalled for."

[ArchonAlarion]

Se does not equal confidence. Ne INTj's can be quite forceful and domineering. They're stubborn, can come across as know it alls, and once again are often attributed with the behavioral trait "high standards".

Moreover, not that I'm implying a monopoly in anyway whatsoever, but the Si agenda often manifests in an interest and skill in art. I have an Ne INTj engineering teacher. Extremely sharp, critical, knowledgable, very high standards, very 5w6. He VI's to Simon and also acts like him. He also used to be an ice dancer, which is seemingly incongruous to his current self presentation. I also know a guy my age who is Ne INTj, basically a carbon copy of my teacher and Niffweed (I keep bringing up Niff because he is relevent, not because I have some current strife with him). Simon's ear for good music, that people want to buy, come across as Si to me. Also please do not say that Te is about making money because thats very lame.

Its all about tone, style, presentation. Remember that (in the aspect interpretation of socionics) Se is external object statics. Obviously, thats a bit of a distance to get to the behavioral trait "confident, domineering, willful." And tbh, I met Niffweed and he does give off a haughty, confident, willful vibe. As I think I can come across, user Logos can come across, Vero does, my teacher and friend do, Ephemeros does, etc. Alpha NT's are actually kinda "willful". Its a mistake to think we do not understand or care about "power, will, domination, etc." We do. Sometimes with quite a passion. Power dynamics interest us greatly. and we all have Se in our super-ego, so go figure.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Se does not equal confidence. Ne INTj's can be quite forceful and domineering. They're stubborn, can come across as know it alls, and once again are often attributed with the behavioral trait "high standards".

It equals confidence in certain spheres, for example, a highly charged TV show where he has carved out a niche as being the top dog of the show. I believe that description of Ne-INTjs you gave applies more readily to the Ti-subtype, but I do not believe that Simon Cowell has in his Ego block.

Its all about tone, style, presentation. Remember that (in the aspect interpretation of socionics) Se is external object statics. Obviously, thats a bit of a distance to get to the behavioral trait "confident, domineering, willful." And tbh, I met Niffweed and he does give off a haughty, confident, willful vibe. As I think I can come across, user Logos can come across, Vero does, my teacher and friend do, Ephemeros does, etc. Alpha NT's are actually kinda "willful". Its a mistake to think we do not understand or care about "power, will, domination, etc." We do. Sometimes with quite a passion. Power dynamics interest us greatly. and we all have Se in our super-ego, so go figure.

Okay...I find personally find this description rather alienating - it's not at the forefront of how I would see Alpha NTs.

[Smilingeyes]

Piers Morgan is most certainly one of the most obvious ESTjs in tv. His relationships and his behaviour during the celebrity apprentice contest fit this very well and I identify with him strongly.

Cowell is very Se. He appears to be close friends with Trump ENTp, so I think ISFj is unlikely. ESTp more likely. Also, he and Piers are not really in sync.

[FDG]

Hah, than you've never come face to face with an Ne INTj nor do I think you are one, but w/e.

Its the Niffweed type, bud. Sharp, critical, amoral, rigid, a subdued zanyness. Obvious Fe seeking, downplayed due to general 5-ishness and shame over being helpless to Fe vibes. Although this is a state, which may or may not be gone through. Not saying that thats what Niff is doing, but Ive personally gone through something akin to that, and well Ti ENTp 6w5 here. But yep, so first source of upcoming flak, lets move to the second...

Ne isn't just about being a silly, creative, goof. Its a way of perceiving information. Its filters the input into Internal object statics. Basically breaking up things into concepts and reducing those parts into further concepts. Its like seeing things as made of words and ideas, the "inner forms" or "geometry" (although that may be specifically Alpha NT) of a thing. It makes things into non-things. Into pure abstractions. Without Si to build back these parts into a physical form Ne would be lost. Likewise, without Ne, the Si flow has no parts or individuals. It would be a churning mud of nothing. Nothing to separate one thing from another. No resolution, just blur.

So anyways, yeah. I like Simon Cowell, always have.

What the hell you are talking about, man. Wins the prize for most wrong post ever.

[Smilingeyes]

What the hell you are talking about, man. Wins the prize for most wrong post ever.

Agreed. Though I take it as one more vote to claim that Simon Cowell isn't an ENTp's conflict partner.

[ArchonAlarion]

w/e, I'm confident in my understanding of the IME's.

Thanks for the prize though. Goin on my bureau.

Unless its a bag of chocolates. In that case, Im gonna save that shit for tonight.

[The Greeter]

WHAT TYPE IS PIERS???
I LOVE HIM

Piers Morgan is most certainly one of the most obvious ESTjs in tv.

I'll accept this (and agree).

[Warlord]

once again, has to do with the prevailing stereotypes of Si and Fe.

You constantly cry about these imaginary "prevailing stereotypes", that largely don't even excist, it's all in your head. And what you have to got to offer instead of these "stereotypes", an another set of stereotypes that are even more retarded, than the ones you whine about. The problem is that, you only seem capable of thinking in stereotypes. Therefore you interpret everything through them, and you are only capable of producing stereotypes.

[ArchonAlarion]

nope.

How have I offered more stereotypes?

[Warlord]

How have I offered more stereotypes?

Critical bastard, high standards, Si agenda, blah blah

Idc. He's Ne INTj. Same as freakin House.

Its the Niffweed type, bud. Sharp, critical, amoral, rigid, a subdued zanyness.

They're stubborn, can come across as know it alls, and once again are often attributed with the behavioral trait "high standards".

Nuff said.

[Not A Communist Shill]

lol

[ArchonAlarion]

Because Se polr means something to you that it does not to me

Also being Ne INTj he is "counter-phobic" against Se, and that is a more aggressively combative against the polr, in this case Se.

So, because you equate certain things to Se that he apparently is not deficient in you will type him differently.

However, my definition of Se is not "Willpower, force, being loud, aggressive, mean, powerful, etc." so thats why we will not agree until we can have a common base to start from, IE: a common IME definition.

Hah, than you've never come face to face with an Ne INTj nor do I think you are one, but w/e.

Its the Niffweed type, bud. Sharp, critical, amoral, rigid, a subdued zanyness. Obvious Fe seeking, downplayed due to general 5-ishness and shame over being helpless to Fe vibes. Although this is a state, which may or may not be gone through. Not saying that thats what Niff is doing, but Ive personally gone through something akin to that, and well Ti ENTp 6w5 here. But yep, so first source of upcoming flak, lets move to the second...

Ne isn't just about being a silly, creative, goof. Its a way of perceiving information. Its filters the input into Internal object statics. Basically breaking up things into concepts and reducing those parts into further concepts. Its like seeing things as made of words and ideas, the "inner forms" or "geometry" (although that may be specifically Alpha NT) of a thing. It makes things into non-things. Into pure abstractions. Without Si to build back these parts into a physical form Ne would be lost. Likewise, without Ne, the Si flow has no parts or individuals. It would be a churning mud of nothing. Nothing to separate one thing from another. No resolution, just blur.

So anyways, yeah. I like Simon Cowell, always have.

once again, has to do with the prevailing stereotypes of Si and Fe.

I've discussed this before with you (at least about Si). Its not about comfort its not about aesthetics (NECESSARILY). Its about a specific way of perceiving information. External field dynamics. Things that we perceive can be viewed in two main orientations: objects or fields.

Objects - a singular entity with a wider field set/context
Field - a set/context containing multiple object entities

So when Si looks at the human body (for instance), it will filter the information in a way that our bodily systems and processes become a moving summation. Like a flow of water or clouds. Its very organic, seeing multiple discrete external object processes (Te) tied together into a lump sum process or environment. A singular "field". The human body is an evolving system, ever changing, growing, constantly in motion, with all the parts in homeostatic unison. Its like a time lapse of a city being built or a child aging (?). Um, it tends to not focus on still details. More broad i guess.

So, Si of course is not limited in anyway to the human body, just like Ni is not limited to my sock draw, or Te to my left ballsack. Of course our bodies are the hub of our life, survival, and existence so ALL the IME's will focus on the self and its happiness, but Si is not the only one that cares, nor is it the only thing it cares about.

So that's an example for why I dont go by the stereotype stuff, and why I continue to type the way i do.

But I shouldn't derail the thread.

Se does not equal confidence. Ne INTj's can be quite forceful and domineering. They're stubborn, can come across as know it alls, and once again are often attributed with the behavioral trait "high standards".

Moreover, not that I'm implying a monopoly in anyway whatsoever, but the Si agenda often manifests in an interest and skill in art. I have an Ne INTj engineering teacher. Extremely sharp, critical, knowledgable, very high standards, very 5w6. He VI's to Simon and also acts like him. He also used to be an ice dancer, which is seemingly incongruous to his current self presentation. I also know a guy my age who is Ne INTj, basically a carbon copy of my teacher and Niffweed (I keep bringing up Niff because he is relevent, not because I have some current strife with him). Simon's ear for good music, that people want to buy, come across as Si to me. Also please do not say that Te is about making money because thats very lame.

Its all about tone, style, presentation. Remember that (in the aspect interpretation of socionics) Se is external object statics. Obviously, thats a bit of a distance to get to the behavioral trait "confident, domineering, willful." And tbh, I met Niffweed and he does give off a haughty, confident, willful vibe. As I think I can come across, user Logos can come across, Vero does, my teacher and friend do, Ephemeros does, etc. Alpha NT's are actually kinda "willful". Its a mistake to think we do not understand or care about "power, will, domination, etc." We do. Sometimes with quite a passion. Power dynamics interest us greatly. and we all have Se in our super-ego, so go figure.

You constantly cry about these imaginary "prevailing stereotypes", that largely don't even excist, it's all in your head. And what you have to got to offer instead of these "stereotypes", an another set of stereotypes that are even more retarded, than the ones you whine about. The problem is that, you only seem capable of thinking in stereotypes. Therefore you interpret everything through them, and you are only capable of producing stereotypes.

Turns out I actually wrote a few sizable posts, which have nothing to do with stereotypes.

Also notice that the word stereotype contains the word "type" in it.

Ya, see Warlord, theres this thing called "socionics". We basically look at people's behavior and relationships, and with a couple assumptions, trace those behaviors and relationships to the way people perceive the world.

I know crazy right?

and then we put these people into "types".

I know I know. Its silly. But it works ! Really I swear!

And then because people can share types, we can see patterns of behavior. Pretty cool, huh?

And these patterns make "generalizations" and "stereotypes". This helps us describe types with relative ease.


The problem is though, that some people in the community have the wrong stereotypes.

But the whole point of Socionics is based on stereotypes... hopefully the right ones

Stereotype, generalizations, categories of behavior, probable interactions, etc.

Just go away Warlord.

[Warlord]

Ok, you also incoherently ramble rhetoretical nonsense also. My bad.

Doesn't seem to be what you actually use, when you type people though.

[ArchonAlarion]

Ok, you also incoherently ramble rhetoretical nonsense also. My bad.

Doesn't seem to be what you actually use, when you type people though.

lol.

Tbh Im going on hunches and general impressions of Simon. Experience with people like him, VI, and how I feel about him/whether I like his style.

The thing about socionics is that its not a fast food science. You can't just go "He's a grump and mean so he's Se" or whatever. To really analyze someone you'd need to study their speech and behavior closely. I have watched a few seasons of American Idol and the other day a couple of interviews of him. Like with most celebrities and like most people here have done. So I cant be "sure" from just that.

However, one might ask, "Without socionics, how do people know who to like and not like or w/e?"

Well, 99.999% of people do not know socionics. How can they go about interacting? Ya, see people intuitively take verbal and physical clues from people and use it to interact with them. In fact this subtle intuition of exchange is probably 90% of our relationships.

So, I could most likely explain how Simon uses Si or Ti in their aspect description, but I could only do it indirectly. For now I will have to settle on subtle cues, vibes, intuition, and yes, stereotypes. The trick is getting the right stereotypes.


In no way am I closed to him being something else other than Ne INTj, but I haven't heard convincing arguments from anyone, although my brief exchange with SubT looked promising for awhile =\

[Warlord]

But the whole point of Socionics is based on stereotypes... hopefully the right ones

And no, that's not the point of socionics. Socionics is about how people process information, not trying to fit them in some precognived stereotype.

Lot of people of different types can be "critical", "have high standards". Or fit any handful of random characteristics. For various different reasons.

[ArchonAlarion]

And no, that's not the point of socionics. Socionics is about how people process information, not trying to fit them in some precognived stereotype.

Too bad we can't crawl into people's brians and find out what they're thinking.

Like I said, we can only perceive the elements indirectly in people. Thats why we use behavioral traits.

And by stereotypes I mean something other than broad generalizations. I mean ways of acting, moods, tendancies, etc. Also the use of stereotypes in this case is inductive because I'm noticing actual people performing these actions and creating a stereotype out of that. So no "fitting" is involved.

Lot of people of different types can be "critical", "have high standards". Or fit any handful of random characteristics. For various different reasons.

I agree and admit my vagueness, although in my day to day interactions this type has taken those characteristsics to such a degree as to warrant my use of them. Sorry if you have not had similar experiences.



@Allie, yeah I dont see the similarities to you, Calenwen, or other ESI's I've known.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I think it is unlikely that an INTj would be particularly talented at making spontaneous remarks about the appearance of many people. The manner in which Cowell brings down people seems to me to be a negative related tactic in order to assert his boundaries.

[ArchonAlarion]

Hah!

Not that this is some sort of evidence, but I just asked my Fe ESFj mom how she felt about Cowell and she said, "Smart, speaks the truth, brutally honest, but bad people skills" And she likes Simon too. Also she used literally the exact same description for Simon as she did for my Ne INTj teacher.

So I lol'd.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Hah!

Not that this is some sort of evidence, but I just asked my Fe ESFj mom how she felt about Cowell and she said, "Smart, speaks the truth, brutally honest, but bad people skills" And she likes Simon too. Also she used literally the exact same description for Simon as she did for my Ne INTj teacher.

So I lol'd.

That description is rather vague. And if you ask her about two strongly-minded people in quick succession like that, it is probably not so surprising she described the same way. As for your teacher...I don't believe we've met.

[ArchonAlarion]

No I didnt ask her about both of them, just Simon.

I said, "Mom what do you think of Simon Cowell?"

<her quick explanation>

<My reason for the question>

I did not ask her about my teacher. That is from prior conversations.

And yeah, like I said it was just funny to me (And prolly to Tom), so not evidence, just anecdote.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Okay, it's just that in the past I have typed rude people (from my perspective) of opposing types, let alone the same type, so I see that decription as rather non-descript. My typings may be wrong, but I don't see why people of any types could not fit that description from someone else's point of view.

[ArchonAlarion]

Sure I agree.

But also I can see someone being "rude" by formal definitions yet still think hes "right on the money" (wait, is that too Gamma? lawlz)

So rude, yeah. Do I think he's funny/correct in his judgements? Yah. Perhaps you're reacting negatively to his Ti? mayhaps, mayhaps.

[ArchonAlarion]

lol, well although Im inclined to argue more I feel its best to stop.

So continue on, see how it worksout for ya