Differences between enneagram types 2 and 3

[Kristiina]

I thought I was 3w4 because I do need to achieve stuff, but I'm not as phsycho-obsessive as the 3w2 sounded. But now I kinda relate with 2w3 What's the difference anyway?

I do like to give love, but it's never entirely selfless. When I care about someone, I expect them to care about me as well. And I need to achieve things and I expect other people to achieve things. I am gladly willing to help them if I think they would be willing to help me in the future. It's not because I'm a horrible person who always expects something in return... I just think it's unproductive and unfair for me to waste energy on someone who wouldn't care enough about me to help me in the same situation.

But when I don't achieve anything, I get depressed and I need to have one goal after another. When one thing is achieved, I have a new huge goal within 3 days.

I never entirely understood the enneagram thing, so where do I put the border between 2 and 3 when I like to help others because my achievements often involve other people.

[Phaedrus]

I do like to give love, but it's never entirely selfless. When I care about someone, I expect them to care about me as well. And I need to achieve things and I expect other people to achieve things. I am gladly willing to help them if I think they would be willing to help me in the future. It's not because I'm a horrible person who always expects something in return... I just think it's unproductive and unfair for me to waste energy on someone who wouldn't care enough about me to help me in the same situation.

Here you definitely reason more like a 2 than a 3.

[Kristiina]

I'm not sure if I'm influenced by the couple of E2 descriptions that I read, but I did relate to them a bit.

[Kristiina]

I think you're more likely a 3, but both of your wings will have an influence on you to some extent so it's not so surprising that you relate somewhat to the 2.

...even if I'm 3w4?

[Phaedrus]

I'm not sure if I'm influenced by the couple of E2 descriptions that I read, but I did relate to them a bit.

Have you compared the differences and similarities between E2s and E3s, for example the ones I posted in the other thread (#54):

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...t=17272&page=6

[Kristiina]

I read it but didn't find it very useful. It just confirmed that E2 and E3 are very similar and that the differences are in nuances. It's like trying to see the difference between ENFp and INFp without really understanding the functions. I don't fully agree with either of those enneagram types.

I believe everyone should be able to take care of themselves. (not E2)
People who try too hard to help others are sad people who should get a life (not E2)
Accomplishments mean nothing when no one knows about them (not E3)
Praise for work efforts never lasts very long (not E3)

[machintruc]

@Kristiina: did you phitype yourself ? Do you think you're S0D+ or S+D0 ?

[Joy]

3 seems more likely than 2, based solely on forum behavior.

[Kristiina]

@Kristiina: did you phitype yourself ? Do you think you're S0D+ or S+D0 ?

I don't know Phitypes at all.

[Expat]

Accomplishments mean nothing when no one knows about them (not E3)

Why "not E3"? Unless I'm totally misreading how you mean it, actually that phrase is essential E3. That is, E3s would agree with the statement as it is.

[Phaedrus]

Why "not E3"? Unless I'm totally misreading how you mean it, actually that phrase is essential E3. That is, E3s would agree with the statement as it is.

It is not incompatible with E2 either.

[Phaedrus]

Etypes are rarely directly incompatible with each other, it's a different sort of game to socionics. However, while it's not incompatible with E2, it doesn't suggest it either.

Correct. I didn't mean to suggest that it suggested it. I only saw another typical sign of Expat's tendency to jump to conclusions. He knows that if p then q, and he knows that q, so he draws the conclusion that p is true. But he often doesn't realize or ignores the possibility that that r or s might also entail q. So, he often ends up backing up his conclusions by incorrect logic, by invalid logical reasoning.

[Phaedrus]

There was nothing wrong with his reasoning in this instance, unless you are jumping to some conclusion about what he meant.

It's a clear tendency in Expat's typings, even though it's possible to interpret his wordings in this particular context as not strictly implying the thought process I described. He would make fewer typing mistakes if he used modus tollens more often.

[Expat]

That's silly.

Kristiina (so I understood) stated that that characteristic was "not E3".

I said, on the contrary, that is an E3 characteristic generally. End of story. Whether that helps Kristiina decide between E2 or E3 for her is a separate issue.

Unless someone wants to argue that to validate accomplishment by their, hmm, "fame", is NOT E3, no other comment is necessary.

In this instance, Phaedrus is the one jumping to conclusions, not me at all.

[Kristiina]

the differences between E2 and E3 are more and more complicated. I was hoping for a quicky-evaluation "Oh, you had misunderstood E3, so you have to be E2" or something like that. Just seems I'm not as clearly 3w4 as I thought.

Seems I'll have to settle for "E2 or E3 or something else".

[Kristiina]

The fact that you are selective about giving your love away strongly points away from E2.

now we're getting somewhere.