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Thread: umm excuse me, but your third and fourth functions are showing

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    Default umm... excuse me, but your third and fourth functions are showing...

    at the boston conference rick noted how we try to turn others into our dual. i know for me this manifests in me asking tons of questions requiring like, "Why does this happen? and such as, "Should I do this? What would happen if I did this?" to my friends. im curious if you guys ever noticed this in yourself- i think we do it more than we know or even think.

    if u think about it, we need to show to others that we both need help in, yet value, our fifth and sixth functions in order for us to be able to determine which people are able to do this for us (our dual, activity, semi-dual, illusionary, benefactor) and which people can't (types that share the same ego functions as us) and people who are able to, but don't value our fifth and sixth functions and thus cause us more harm than good (super-ego, conflict). however by showing both our weakness in dealing with and our interest in our fifth and sixth functions, by default we also expose our weak, unvalued third and fourth functions.

    for example: SEEs have weak intuition and logic. by a SEE asking a question requiring strong intuition and logic to appropriately answer, their weakness in intuition and logic becomes apparent. however when the SEE asks this question about intuition and logic and expects an or response and gets an or response this is when conflicts and complications occur on both the SEE's side and the responder's side (let's call the responder an alpha NT). the SEE may ask for further clarification- basically demanding an or explanation out of the answerer with (which would simultaneously insult the alpha NT) or would feel insulted or put off by the alpha NT's display of and/or (due to the SEE's letting them know this person is mean/rude/making you vulnerable- stay away). the alpha NT walks away with his head between his legs wondering why this person who seems so adept at dealing with sensing and ethical matters, doesn't give them the , input they so crave by answering their question correctly. they wanted a smile, a hug, and a thank you () while simultaneously being fed a good, warm meal () for giving such a great , answer. not only did this SEE seemingly withhold their precious , , but this awful SEE also insult their weak third and fourth functions... AT THE SAME TIME! each person is left thinking that the other person could help them, could be good for them since they are skilled in the dichotomy they are unskilled in, yet this never comes to pass- thus defining the tragic appeal of super-ego and conflict relations.


    so basically i think that just as we show our ego functions to identify ourselves to others, we also show our super-id functions to determine which relations are the best for us. however in displaying our yearning for help in and interest in our super-id functions we also are showing our weak, vulnerable third and fourth functions through which we determine which relations are the worst for us to pursue.


    2 Questions:
    1) How does your want of your super-id functions manifest? (or not)
    2) Do you think it is necessary for us to show that we need help in and value our fifth and sixth functions to determine intertype relations?
    (Yes, I do realize that just being your good ol' ego self may be enough to determine intertype relations, but do you think it is necessary for one person to ask for help from another person for intertype relations to be truly revealed?)
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    That makes sense.

    I'll spare you my answer.



    LII-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    at the so basically i think that just as we show our ego functions to identify ourselves to others, we also show our super-id functions to determine which relations are the best for us. however in displaying our yearning for help in and interest in our super-id functions we also are showing our weak, vulnerable third and fourth functions through which we determine which relations are the worst for us to pursue.


    2 Questions:
    1) How does your want of your super-id functions manifest? (or not)
    2) Do you think it is necessary for us to show that we need help in and value our fifth and sixth functions to determine intertype relations?
    (Yes, I do realize that just being your good ol' ego self may be enough to determine intertype relations, but do you think it is necessary for one person to ask for help from another person for intertype relations to be truly revealed?)
    I like the second question the best, so I will answer it. The short answer is 'yes'. If we seek to plan out a strategy for attracting our duals, what you suggest would be half of the strategy. The other half of actively showing a need and valuing of our 5th and 6th functions would be to give lots of our own 1st and 2nd functional information. Even though asking for help is a good idea, I do not think it necessary to specifically ask for help. Your dual is going to give the information you seek regardless of your request, but perhaps asking for it makes initiation smoother.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    I like the second question the best, so I will answer it. The short answer is 'yes'. If we seek to plan out a strategy for attracting our duals, what you suggest would be half of the strategy. The other half of actively showing a need and valuing of our 5th and 6th functions would be to give lots of our own 1st and 2nd functional information. Even though asking for help is a good idea, I do not think it necessary to specifically ask for help. Your dual is going to give the information you seek regardless of your request, but perhaps asking for it makes initiation smoother.
    good points- i totally agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    at the boston conference rick noted how we try to turn others into our dual. i know for me this manifests in me asking tons of questions requiring like, "Why does this happen? and such as, "Should I do this? What would happen if I did this?" to my friends. im curious if you guys ever noticed this in yourself- i think we do it more than we know or even think.

    if u think about it, we need to show to others that we both need help in, yet value, our fifth and sixth functions in order for us to be able to determine which people are able to do this for us (our dual, activity, semi-dual, illusionary, benefactor) and which people can't (types that share the same ego functions as us) and people who are able to, but don't value our fifth and sixth functions and thus cause us more harm than good (super-ego, conflict). however by showing both our weakness in dealing with and our interest in our fifth and sixth functions, by default we also expose our weak, unvalued third and fourth functions.

    for example: SEEs have weak intuition and logic. by a SEE asking a question requiring strong intuition and logic to appropriately answer, their weakness in intuition and logic becomes apparent. however when the SEE asks this question about intuition and logic and expects an or response and gets an or response this is when conflicts and complications occur on both the SEE's side and the responder's side (let's call the responder an alpha NT). the SEE may ask for further clarification- basically demanding an or explanation out of the answerer with (which would simultaneously insult the alpha NT) or would feel insulted or put off by the alpha NT's display of and/or (due to the SEE's letting them know this person is mean/rude/making you vulnerable- stay away). the alpha NT walks away with his head between his legs wondering why this person who seems so adept at dealing with sensing and ethical matters, doesn't give them the , input they so crave by answering their question correctly. they wanted a smile, a hug, and a thank you () while simultaneously being fed a good, warm meal () for giving such a great , answer. not only did this SEE seemingly withhold their precious , , but this awful SEE also insult their weak third and fourth functions... AT THE SAME TIME! each person is left thinking that the other person could help them, could be good for them since they are skilled in the dichotomy they are unskilled in, yet this never comes to pass- thus defining the tragic appeal of super-ego and conflict relations.


    so basically i think that just as we show our ego functions to identify ourselves to others, we also show our super-id functions to determine which relations are the best for us. however in displaying our yearning for help in and interest in our super-id functions we also are showing our weak, vulnerable third and fourth functions through which we determine which relations are the worst for us to pursue.


    2 Questions:
    1) How does your want of your super-id functions manifest? (or not)
    2) Do you think it is necessary for us to show that we need help in and value our fifth and sixth functions to determine intertype relations?
    (Yes, I do realize that just being your good ol' ego self may be enough to determine intertype relations, but do you think it is necessary for one person to ask for help from another person for intertype relations to be truly revealed?)
    Sounds reasonable enough. The example may be realistically a little off for both the SEE and LII, but I understand that it is an exaggeration to make a point.
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    ok guys this is weird... 3 thumbs up from 3 LIIs? really?! some person please rip my argument apart cuz this is pretty scary haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    ok guys this is weird... 3 thumbs up from 3 LIIs? really?! some person please rip my argument apart cuz this is pretty scary haha
    I think you've pulled off some good . Now that you actually need your argument ripped apart, you'll have to find an ILI to do it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    ok guys this is weird... 3 thumbs up from 3 LIIs? really?! some person please rip my argument apart cuz this is pretty scary haha
    It does explain at least one aspect of our relationship. But yes, we fish for our duals by baiting our egos and are disappointed when the hook the wrong fish, who themselves thought they saw a similar looking bait. I'm not sure why you expected to dissect your argument; it is a sound one that is supported by the system's structure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    It does explain at least one aspect of our relationship. But yes, we fish for our duals by baiting our egos and are disappointed when the hook the wrong fish, who themselves thought they saw a similar looking bait. I'm not sure why you expected to dissect your argument; it is a sound one that is supported by the system's structure.

    u guys just made my day! i guess i expected to dissect my argument cuz thats what usually happens haha
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