Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 41

Thread: Clubs on Wikisocion

  1. #1
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Clubs on Wikisocion

    I don't think they're completely bullshit, but I do think they're not all-encompassing. I'm prepared to say that the descriptions for NT and NF are fairly consistent with the types' behaviour and thought patterns (insofar that NT and NF types basically will act in the way they are defined on Wikisocion).

    Nonetheless, I'm not prepared to accept certain facts about the SFs or the STs. I'm inclined to think that the description for the ST club fits Delta STs quite well, but not Beta STs. Likewise, I think Alpha SFs could clearly identify themselves as being a part of the SF club, but I doubt Gamma SFs, especially ESIs, would find that the description resonates well with them. Regardless of the (most recent) controversy over my type, I'm Se leading. And I can tell you now, I identify with neither the SF nor the ST description. NT resonates far more with me. And I bet you'll find plenty of others on here who have the same issue as I do. To be quite honest, I've never discussed manual work, engineering or sports in my life. I find these topics incredibly dull. I'm far more likely to engage in political discussion, or philosophical discussion on some levels.

    More than "general trends", I think they're wrong, and I think they need changing. Instead of "This kind of group behavior, though, in terms of seeing a club as any kind of unit, is visible only as long as the group is held together by, and focuses on, discussions and activities of their common interests. Longer and deeper interactions make such a club visibly "split" into the two quadras, n quadra and n quadra", there should be more detail about the clubs in their respective quadras, and the description about what Beta STs and Gamma SFs discuss and focus on should be changed.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I don't think they're completely bullshit, but I do think they're not all-encompassing.
    Think again. They are definitely all-encompassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I'm prepared to say that the descriptions for NT and NF are fairly consistent with the types' behaviour and thought patterns (insofar that NT and NF types basically will act in the way they are defined on Wikisocion).
    There is nothing wrong with them. They are correct, but more can be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Nonetheless, I'm not prepared to accept certain facts about the SFs or the STs.
    You simply must accept them. It's the basics of Socionics. It's the basic facts about the types. If you don't accept it, you don't accept Socionics. If you want to invent your own typology, don't call it Socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I'm inclined to think that the description for the ST club fits Delta STs quite well, but not Beta STs.
    You are wrong. It fits all of them perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Likewise, I think Alpha SFs could clearly identify themselves as being a part of the SF club, but I doubt Gamma SFs, especially ESIs, would find that the description resonates well with them.
    Some ESIs are somewhat reluctant to accept such descriptions of themselves, but if you study ESIs in real life situations you will see that it fits them perfectly nevertheless. They are exactly like that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Regardless of the (most recent) controversy over my type, I'm Se leading.
    No, you are not leading. Definitely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    And I can tell you now, I identify with neither the SF nor the ST description.
    And that's the reason why. It's a definite proof that you are not leading. I hate your stupidity, Ezra. Get rid of it, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    NT resonates far more with me.
    Of course. You are a LIE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    And I bet you'll find plenty of others on here who have the same issue as I do.
    Only if they have been brainwashed -- by themselves or others. This is no real problem. You haven't learned the types correctly, that's why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    To be quite honest, I've never discussed manual work, engineering or sports in my life. I find these topics incredibly dull. I'm far more likely to engage in political discussion, or philosophical discussion on some levels.
    Typical NT Researcher. ENTj -- just as all your test results indicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    More than "general trends", I think they're wrong, and I think they need changing.
    Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

    If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.

  3. #3
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Wow, Phaedrus. I was trying to be open-minded about you, which was hard considering threads like "The Flaw in Phaedrus' reasoning", but here you're just being a dogmatic ass.

    The problem with the common description of being all about practical, manual stuff is that it is a blatant attempt at trait-sorting, as opposed to information analysis. It's the same kind of argument as "if you don't think about time all the time, you're not leading ". This kind of binary thinking only serves to alienate you from everyone else. To put this in terms, if you want to get your point across, you should find ways that actually affect change in people's thinking, and curb the impulse to deride every single thought that doesn't line up perfectly with your own.

    I agree with Steve that the clubs descriptions on the wiki are lacking and in some ways inaccurate. Clubs as a phenomena would probably be better described by analyzing the intertype relationships, which in clubs are ego-id relations (mirror, extinguishment, quasi).

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  4. #4
    liveandletlive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,290
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    they may not be all-encompassing, but i think there are limits to how specific the club descriptions can be while still applying to all SFs, NTs, STs, and NFs so for the time being i think they're good generalizations.
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

  5. #5
    implied's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    7,750
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i'm not really ready to call them totally useless and something that should be obliterated in their current state because i think they could be useful to someone who were completely, absolutely, 100% unfamiliar with socionics or mbti or any such thing. but my idea is that most people who even bother to look at the wikisocion for information probably aren't really that confused as to what the NT stereotype is, the SF stereotype, etc. i agree they're sort of rudimentary, so perhaps it would be useful to add some supplementary stuff. i know the type domains are really probably where this sort of discussion (i.e. "i'm a XX but when i gather with my XX friends we talk about X.") belongs, but i'm really not sure what can be added to fit the exception without just putting a big ass disclaimer at the top that says, "BUT NOT ALL XX CLUB MEMBERS ARE THIS WAY/NOT ALL STS ARE GREASERS." etc, etc, etc.
    Last edited by implied; 04-17-2008 at 10:11 AM.
    6w5 sx
    model Φ: -+0
    sloan - rcuei

  6. #6
    Elro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    2,796
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

    If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.
    Wow. Are you being serious? This seems almost surreal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Holy mud-wrestling bipolar donkeys, Batman!

    Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.


    I pity your souls

  7. #7
    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,008
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Think again. They are definitely all-encompassing.


    There is nothing wrong with them. They are correct, but more can be said.


    You simply must accept them. It's the basics of Socionics. It's the basic facts about the types. If you don't accept it, you don't accept Socionics. If you want to invent your own typology, don't call it Socionics.


    You are wrong. It fits all of them perfectly.


    Some ESIs are somewhat reluctant to accept such descriptions of themselves, but if you study ESIs in real life situations you will see that it fits them perfectly nevertheless. They are exactly like that too.


    No, you are not leading. Definitely not.


    And that's the reason why. It's a definite proof that you are not leading. I hate your stupidity, Ezra. Get rid of it, please.


    Of course. You are a LIE.


    Only if they have been brainwashed -- by themselves or others. This is no real problem. You haven't learned the types correctly, that's why.


    Typical NT Researcher. ENTj -- just as all your test results indicate.


    Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

    If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.
    I'm not the type to fit in and agree with everyone else, but this has to be the dumbest post I've ever read.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  8. #8
    Elro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    2,796
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Holy mud-wrestling bipolar donkeys, Batman!

    Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.


    I pity your souls

  9. #9
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, I find them too stereotypical. Controlling for mixed subtype probably makes them work more easily ex. a Ti-ISTj would be a cross between researcher and pragmatist in terms of interests, a Te-ENTj same, a Si-ESTj a cross between pragmatist and social, a mixed subtype should fit perfectly the description. I would peg myself as inbetween pragmatist and researcher, even if I shun both super nerdy activities and (bleah) sport cars gatherings.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  10. #10
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Although the club descriptions on wiki are perhaps not perfect, they are fairly accurate.

    I think that the fact that Ezra identifies with NT more than ST probably means it's more likely he's mistyping himself as ST as opposed to us re-writing the wiki descriptions because he wants an ST club to look like an NT description

    But ok, they may be generalizing to a point, but then they have to, to a point. I know plenty beta ST's that fit the ST description better than the NT description. Just a thought.

    @jriddy, I may be wrong here, but you seem to be assuming Phaedrus doesn't understand , why? From what I can tell he hasn't described on this thread.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Wow, Phaedrus. I was trying to be open-minded about you, which was hard considering threads like "The Flaw in Phaedrus' reasoning", but here you're just being a dogmatic ass.
    No. My stance towards the typing of Ezra is the only correct one. Look at the evidence. Have you done that? And have you understood my arguments? If you have, you simply must agree with my reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    The problem with the common description of being all about practical, manual stuff is that it is a blatant attempt at trait-sorting, as opposed to information analysis. It's the same kind of argument as "if you don't think about time all the time, you're not leading ".
    So, why does Ezra fall into that trap? Why does he focus on irrelevant aspects of the functions instead of learning how the real types are? Can you make him take reason and reconsider his type? Please do that if you know how.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    This kind of binary thinking only serves to alienate you from everyone else.
    Irrelevant. I am only loyal to the truth, not to any group of people if they are blind to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    To put this in terms, if you want to get your point across, you should find ways that actually affect change in people's thinking, and curb the impulse to deride every single thought that doesn't line up perfectly with your own.
    Another irrelevant comment. Since ILIs are not particularly good at getting their points across, why can't you or someone else do the job instead? The only thing that is important to me is to get things right, to get rid of people's false beliefs. I don't care how it is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    I agree with Steve that the clubs descriptions on the wiki are lacking and in some ways inaccurate.
    They are described to briefly, but they are not inaccurate. How can you say that they are inaccurate? Don't you understand them?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    Clubs as a phenomena would probably be better described by analyzing the intertype relationships, which in clubs are ego-id relations (mirror, extinguishment, quasi).
    Why? Can you improve their descriptions along those lines? Or are you only bluffing? Make an attempt and we'll see if it's any better.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Wow. Are you being serious? This seems almost surreal.
    I only want Ezra to wake up from his erroneous beliefs about his type and the types in general. He has got many things right, but he is totally wrong about some very important details. He has no reason to believe that he is an SLE, and yet he does. I hate such mistakes.

  13. #13
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I only want Ezra to wake up from his erroneous beliefs about his type and the types in general. He has got many things right, but he is totally wrong about some very important details. He has no reason to believe that he is an SLE, and yet he does. I hate such mistakes.
    Go type Ezra in person.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  14. #14
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Go type Ezra in person.
    In view of the fact that Ezra has been encouraging discussion of his type on the forums, this comment is somewhat irrelevant.

  15. #15
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    In view of the fact that Ezra has been encouraging discussion of his type on the forums, this comment is somewhat irrelevant.
    Your comment is irrelevant in that it disregards what I responded to. Re-read what Phaedrus wrote: he [ezra] has no reason to believe that he is an SLE. On what grounds does Phaedrus make this claim? It was also funny to suggest Phaedrus shake the hand of the person that he insulted via the internet.

    Furthermore the title of this thread is 'clubs on wikisocion', not 'what is ezra's type'.

    Clubs are pretty sweet, by the way.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  16. #16
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Your comment is irrelevant in that it disregards what I responded to. Re-read what Phaedrus wrote: he [ezra] has no reason to believe that he is an SLE.
    Ok. Perhaps Phaedrus should have wrote 'has little reason to believe that he is an SLE' or 'has more reason to accept another type' I try see past the occasionial semantic of people (sometimes ) esp if they've got other stuff to say with it.
    It was also funny to suggest Phaedrus shake the hand of the person that he insulted via the internet.
    I can understand this, but i've pretty much come to realise this is Phaedrus' way of communicating, he doesn't (usually) mean to actually insult anyone. Once you see past this then you can see the guy does have some useful things to say, I reckon.
    Furthermore the title of this thread is 'clubs on wikisocion', not 'what is ezra's type'.
    Yeah, but incase you didn't notice (),, Ezra's saying they're wrong because he doesn't identify with ST - he might not be ST.
    Clubs are pretty sweet, by the way.
    Well, their better what happened to that Welsh guy during that recent earthquake. You know, the Welsh guy that got hit in the bollocks by a brick.

  17. #17
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I wrote most of the club descriptions; I felt some description of clubs should be included, because they can be regarded as part of classical socionics, and they are referred to in writings by Aushra, Gulenko, Lytov, and probably many others.

    By definition, the 16 socionics types can be divided in NF, NT, ST and SF types, just like in IJ, EP, EJ and IP types, and in the quadras, and in victim, aggressor, infantile and caregiver.

    The issue is then whether the descriptions themselves are good or not. Well, any division of types into just four groups is bound to be imperfect.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Your comment is irrelevant in that it disregards what I responded to. Re-read what Phaedrus wrote: he [ezra] has no reason to believe that he is an SLE. On what grounds does Phaedrus make this claim?
    Why haven't you checked the facts? Why don't you take this seriously? You are ignorant, and that is irritating.

    Ezra have tested as ENTJ on many occasions. He identifies with the Rational temperament in Keirsey's book Please Understand me II, he identifies with the club of NT Researchers in Socionics, he says that he is an SLOEI or SCOEI (I don't remember which one of these two types it was) in the Global 5, which strongly indicates that he is an ENTJ, and he says that he is an ENTJ in MBTT and Keirsey. Besides that, he also identifies with Extraversion, Intuition, Thinking, and Rationality in the four dimensions in Socionics, as well as the four dimensions E, N, T, and J in MBTT and Keirsey.

    And still he has got this idiotic, and incredibly stupid idea that he is leading in Socionics. It's more than I can take. I find such lack of consistency in logical reasoning disgusting.

  19. #19
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Why haven't you checked the facts? Why don't you take this seriously? You are ignorant, and that is irritating.

    Ezra have tested as ENTJ on many occasions. He identifies with the Rational temperament in Keirsey's book Please Understand me II, he identifies with the club of NT Researchers in Socionics, he says that he is an SLOEI or SCOEI (I don't remember which one of these two types it was) in the Global 5, which strongly indicates that he is an ENTJ, and he says that he is an ENTJ in MBTT and Keirsey. Besides that, he also identifies with Extraversion, Intuition, Thinking, and Rationality in the four dimensions in Socionics, as well as the four dimensions E, N, T, and J in MBTT and Keirsey.

    And still he has got this idiotic, and incredibly stupid idea that he is leading in Socionics. It's more than I can take. I find such lack of consistency in logical reasoning disgusting.
    Your general treatment of others is irritating. Insults, and the general arrogance to assume to know more about someone than themselves is unacceptable. Furthermore, what you accept as 'facts' is highly questionable, hence the suggestion to meet in ezra in person.

    Why have you accepted his anecdotal evidence but rejected how he typed himself?

    The clubs are interesting, and if we are to evaluate them in terms of self-observation, we will only get anywhere productive by putting aside the agenda of re-typing ezra.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  20. #20
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    And still he has got this idiotic, and incredibly stupid idea that he is leading in Socionics. It's more than I can take. I find such lack of consistency in logical reasoning disgusting.
    You do realize this sentance is illogical?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Your general treatment of others is irritating.
    Irrelevant to the truth of Ezra's type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    Insults, and the general arrogance to assume to know more about someone than themselves is unacceptable.
    Maybe. But that doesn't change the truth of what I have said about Ezra's type one bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    Furthermore, what you accept as 'facts' is highly questionable, hence the suggestion to meet in ezra in person.
    So, you are accusing Ezra of lying about his test results and what he identifies with? If I was Ezra I would find that extremely insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    Why have you accepted his anecdotal evidence but rejected how he typed himself?
    Are you blind as a bat? Can't you read? Ezra has typed himself as LIE according to the four dichotomies. It is idiotic of you to suggest that I have rejected how Ezra has typed himself, when the truth is that I have accepted how he has typed himself. The problem is that he hasn't accepted that himself. He doesn't realize that if he is correctly types as an ENTJ ans as a SCOEI/SLOEI in Global 5, then he is necessarily a LIE in Socionics.

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    You do realize this sentance is illogical?
    No. It is not illogical. Are you an idiot? Ezra accepts two logically contradictory statements about himself as both true. That is disgusting.

  23. #23
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've never stuck anyone on my ignore list and I never thought I would. I never thought I could kill a man and I never thought a man would go on my deathlist. Phaedrus has just gone onto both lists. My patience with him has completely worn out.

    Just one thing before I don't comment on what he says for a very long time. He claims that all these methods point towards LIE, but he makes a huge mistake of not even discussing the functions when addressing why I think I am Se leading.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    I agree with Steve that the clubs descriptions on the wiki are lacking and in some ways inaccurate. Clubs as a phenomena would probably be better described by analyzing the intertype relationships, which in clubs are ego-id relations (mirror, extinguishment, quasi).
    That's actually a very good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i'm not really ready to call them totally useless and something that should be obliterated in their current state because i think they could be useful to someone who were completely, absolutely, 100% unfamiliar with socionics or mbti or any such thing. but my idea is that most people who even bother to look at the wikisocion for information probably aren't really that confused as to what the NT stereotype is, the SF stereotype, etc. i agree they're sort of rudimentary, so perhaps it would be useful to add some supplementary stuff. i know the type domains are really probably where this sort of discussion (i.e. "i'm a XX but when i gather with my XX friends we talk about X.") belongs, but i'm really not sure what can be added to fit the exception without just putting a big ass disclaimer at the top that says, "BUT NOT ALL XX CLUB MEMBERS ARE THIS WAY/NOT ALL STS ARE GREASERS." etc, etc, etc.
    Yeah, but when you have people like Phaedrus reading them, they become the indubitable Truth, which is harmful to newcomers with a fresh perspective; quite simply, because they don't get a fresh perspective. Instead, they get some dogmatic mutation of a human mind reconstructing their views in his own image, using ridiculous phrases like "you are ABCd".

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I would peg myself as inbetween pragmatist and researcher, even if I shun both super nerdy activities and (bleah) sport cars gatherings.
    What counts as super nerdy to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    But ok, they may be generalizing to a point, but then they have to, to a point. I know plenty beta ST's that fit the ST description better than the NT description. Just a thought.
    I don't doubt this.

    @jriddy, I may be wrong here, but you seem to be assuming Phaedrus doesn't understand , why? From what I can tell he hasn't described on this thread.
    I wonder why...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Furthermore the title of this thread is 'clubs on wikisocion', not 'what is ezra's type'.
    People always introduce the notion of my type into every thread I produce, provoking others to accuse me of going on about my type. Cheers for the defence though. Cyclops is quite new here, so I guess he hasn't seen how much people actually say what he just said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    The clubs are interesting, and if we are to evaluate them in terms of self-observation, we will only get anywhere productive by putting aside the agenda of re-typing ezra.
    Thank you.

  24. #24
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    No. It is not illogical. Are you an idiot? Ezra accepts two logically contradictory statements about himself as both true. That is disgusting.
    Then that would suggest he is irrational, and probably does not value Te, wouldn't it?

    I think you are getting Se0wned by ezra.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  25. #25
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I would suggest that Ezra could possibly fit into the ST club even if his behaviors are 'philosophizing' or 'politicising'. The clubs may not necessarily describe outward behaviors only.

    Perhaps an ST writes a book instead of building a bridge, or working on his/her car, or playing ultimate frisbee. That behavior in itself may not be ST, but perhaps the contents of the philosophy within the book is ST.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I've never stuck anyone on my ignore list and I never thought I would. I never thought I could kill a man and I never thought a man would go on my deathlist. Phaedrus has just gone onto both lists. My patience with him has completely worn out.
    Which means that you ignore the truth and insted stick to your deluded self-conception and erroneus understanding of the types. I don't care how you perceive me, but you simply must see the truth. Open your eyes and realize that you cannot hold the position you now have. It is a logically impossible position to uphold. Two contradictory statements can't both be true, and and an SLE can NEVER EVER be an ENTJ.

    He claims that all these methods point towards LIE, but he makes a huge mistake of not even discussing the functions when addressing why I think I am Se leading.
    And there is very simple explanation for that: You have misunderstood how the functions relate to your own type. Since all the empirical evidence clearly suggest that you are a LIE, then you MUST have misunderstood something about the functions if you believe that you are Se leading, because you cannot both be Se leading and accept those test results as accurate. You are necessarily deluded one way or the other.

    If you prefer to say that you cannot answer tests correctly, I don't mind that, it's your choice. It would solve the problem -- but only if you accept that you are not an ENTJ, that you have to identify with SCUEN or SLUEN in Global 5, that you necessarily belong to the club of Pragmatists in Socionics, and that you must identify with being a Sensory and Irrational type, which means that you must identify with those dimensions in the four dichotomies. If you do that, I am prepared to accept you as an SLE.

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Then that would suggest he is irrational, and probably does not value Te, wouldn't it?
    Yes, it would suggest that if he is an irrational type, then he is deluded -- or, if he is a rational type, that he is unintelligent. I hope it is the former, because then there is still hope for him. Then he could be led out of the fog if he is willing to listen to reason.

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    club descriptions are part of classical socionics, but i'm at a loss for why people from similar clubs are likely to act similarly in any kind of significant way.

    it's probably best not to pay too much attention to it.

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    club descriptions are part of classical socionics, but i'm at a loss for why people from similar clubs are likely to act similarly in any kind of significant way.

    it's probably best not to pay too much attention to it.
    Since the types in fact do act similarly in the way that is described in the Clubs, wouldn't it be even better to try to find the most accurate and correct explanation for this empirical phenomenon?

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Since the types in fact do act similarly in the way that is described in the Clubs, wouldn't it be even better to try to find the most accurate and correct explanation for this empirical phenomenon?
    would you please just shut up already? nobody cares what you have to say.

    this is trivial in the context of real socionics information.

  31. #31
    PotatoSpirit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bologna, Italy
    Posts
    637
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    club descriptions are part of classical socionics, but i'm at a loss for why people from similar clubs are likely to act similarly in any kind of significant way.

    it's probably best not to pay too much attention to it.
    I think the point of clubs is to divide the types based on the strength of their functions.
    Having functions of the same strength allows them to understand the same things, and this makes it more likely for them to engage in the same activities.
    Obviously people of the same club but different quadra will have a different take on those activities, and will enjoy them for different reasons (which could go beyond socionics).
    LSI

  32. #32
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    So you see SFs as empty-headed and boring, eh?
    Hey, empty-headed isn't necessarily an insult, especially if the alternative is playing live role playing games while discussing quantum physics
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  33. #33
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    This is true. I would much rather be considered empty-headed than be involved in role playing games.
    Having a head which empty of thoughts is a mind which is at peace. Sounds ok.

  34. #34
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    would you please just shut up already? nobody cares what you have to say.

    this is trivial in the context of real socionics information.
    If you would have some broader view, you would know how this fits in real socionics information.

  35. #35
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    No. My stance towards the typing of Ezra is the only correct one. Look at the evidence. Have you done that? And have you understood my arguments? If you have, you simply must agree with my reasoning.
    I understand what you are saying. I do not have access to the information you are using form your premises, though. My reasoning is that without having ever actually met Ezra, none of us really have all that much information about him. Your primary argument appears to be, "I, out of a decidedly small body of information, am far more qualified to determine someone's type because my understanding is absolutely perfect." I really don't see what "evidence" you are suggesting I look at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Another irrelevant comment. Since ILIs are not particularly good at getting their points across, why can't you or someone else do the job instead? The only thing that is important to me is to get things right, to get rid of people's false beliefs. I don't care how it is done.
    My (quite relevant) point was that if you would like to rid this world of "false beliefs", you might consider adopting a tone that encourages people to think, rather than one that encourages them to block you. And the "my type sucks at this" argument? C'mon. I guess since I'm an ILE I don't have to pay my bills or file my taxes because I'm not good at detail-oriented work. Grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Why? Can you improve their descriptions along those lines? Or are you only bluffing? Make an attempt and we'll see if it's any better.
    I'll see what I can do. I don't want to overstate my understanding of socionics, but I can say that a focus on very specific, literal applications is likely to leave many feeling excluded, because there's a lot of diversity even with in the same types.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  36. #36

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    would you please just shut up already?
    No, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    nobody cares what you have to say.
    That's irrelevant. I can't force people to consider what I have to say, but they would benefit from doing it -- if they are interested in getting the types right. They would certainly not learn more by listening to what you have to say, because you have still some things to learn when it comes to the types. You still make typing mistakes now and then.

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    I understand what you are saying. I do not have access to the information you are using form your premises, though. My reasoning is that without having ever actually met Ezra, none of us really have all that much information about him. Your primary argument appears to be, "I, out of a decidedly small body of information, am far more qualified to determine someone's type because my understanding is absolutely perfect." I really don't see what "evidence" you are suggesting I look at.
    Ezra's test results and what type descriptions and temperament descriptions he identifies with. All of them point in the same direction -- towards ENTj. No one on this forum (except from Ezra himself and maybe those who have met him in real life) can be 100 % sure of his correct type, but based on the information we in fact do have access to we simply must come to the conclusion that his most likely type is ENTj. No other conclusion is reasonable seen from our perspective. If we don't want to see Ezra as an ENTj, then we dismiss what he says as irrelevant and not worthy of consideration. That is the same thing as believing that Ezra is deluded, that he is totally confused and can't answer a test correctly. Do you really want to base your typing of him on such a ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    My (quite relevant) point was that if you would like to rid this world of "false beliefs", you might consider adopting a tone that encourages people to think, rather than one that encourages them to block you.
    And how exactly do I do that? What exactly do you think that I should change in order to get that result? Why do people pay so much attention to the form instead of the truth content of my posts? They could easily check the facts themselves, but they tend to refuse to do so. How do I make them change their behaviour?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    And the "my type sucks at this" argument? C'mon. I guess since I'm an ILE I don't have to pay my bills or file my taxes because I'm not good at detail-oriented work. Grow up.
    My philosophy when it comes to work and how to organize a society is that people should do what they are relatively better than others at doing. It's a waste of resources to expect everyone to do the same things as everyone else. We are not equally good at everything, so we would all benefit from a rational division of labour in relation to what each type is good at.

    If both you and I agree on what is the correct attitude to adopt and what is most likely the truth, and you happen to know a better way to communicate those truths to others, why can't you help all of us by sharing those insights? What's the point of hoping that I will somehow come to realize how to do something you already know how to do?

    This is not a contest to me. We should all try to collaborate in the mutual pursuit of finding the objective truth and getting rid of false beliefs.

  38. #38
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    This is true. I would much rather be considered empty-headed than be involved in role playing games.
    You will play the role of Zwanarebosum, the beautiful witch queen who rules over her lands as a just and wise demi-goddess. I shall play the role of the lone ranger, Jabefexuresqua, also known as Golden Wondering Night Crawler Assassin, who falls under Zwanarebosum's spell. Go!

    *Wonders over the hills, day and night, looking for a purpose in life.*

    *Encounters a hill castle in the distance. It is beautiful. Walks towards it.*

    Jabefexuresqua I have come to speak with the ruler of these lands.

    Zwanarebosum 'Tis I, a beautiful woman. Become my groom.

  39. #39
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The world is being taken over by Infantile Satanic Feigning pigmes.

  40. #40
    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chatbox
    TIM
    SEI, 9
    Posts
    5,268
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Buahahahaha! You'd better watch your back.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •