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Thread: Angry LSEs-ESTjs: what advice to give?

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    Default Angry LSEs-ESTjs: what advice to give?

    What are your experiences with LSEs getting angry? Why do they get angry? What have you seen to remedy, or, further intensify the anger?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    they seem to fly off the handle if you tell them they are wrong, ignore what they are trying to discuss or make them feel unvalued (but who wouldn't?). However, it is not a scary anger, but a more controlled anger that has a certain "maximum" amount and is pretty predictable. So it is much less scary to see a LSE angry than say another type.
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    Good post Jewels!

    Pretty much what Jewels said. I don't think they like it if you disregard there instructions. A big no no is telling them how to do their job I think. When they get angry they shout and scream, but personally I don't perceive it as physically threatening, it's just like a lot of hot air.

    I remember an ESTj getting angry with me because he wanted to know something that I wouldn't tell him. (I was protecting someone who told me something in confidence. As it was told in confidence, I thought it was right to keep it in confidence) The ESTj gave me a few threats and stuff, but the next day he apologised and it was all forgotten about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Good post Jewels!

    Pretty much what Jewels said. I don't think they like it if you disregard there instructions. A big no no is telling them how to do their job I think. When they get angry they shout and scream, but personally I don't perceive it as physically threatening, it's just like a lot of hot air.

    I remember an ESTj getting angry with me because he wanted to know something that I wouldn't tell him. (I was protecting someone who told me something in confidence. As it was told in confidence, I thought it was right to keep it in confidence) The ESTj gave me a few threats and stuff, but the next day he apologised and it was all forgotten about.
    that confidence stuff is pretty important.
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    Echoing Jewels, there is the non-unique way of making them feel unvalued (though not all types will respond with anger, of course). The only concrete way I've noticed has been when the LSE has been harshly awakened to (or perceives it as such) something which calls into question his or her personal relationships (infidelity, behind the back insults, and the like) or invasions of space (which relate to the previous items). By the latter I mean a breaking of a trust that translates to an expectation of physical closeness (or distance in this context) that gets violated, which in turn breeds a retaliatory level of hostility. Interestingly enough, I've even noticed it rekindling expectations of a return to the old way of things, which may also be met with harsh disappointment when it fails to materialize.

    I feel awful for posting about this in this way though, because the actual circumstances I'm drawing it from are sad enough as it is. We can't much help what we feel. We all suffer the deepest yearnings of our longing, lonely hearts, whether we can have it or not. Life isn't always kind to us.
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    The most common anger I've seen from them is what they use to mobilize people under their supervision, and it's very effective.
    It's not an emotional anger so they easily calm down if you either comply or ignore it and keep your cool.

    I'm not sure about "real" ESTj anger... I'm sure I've seen it but I can't remember.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    What are your experiences with LSEs getting angry? Why do they get angry?

    I think they get mad because they wish a situation could be better and are unable to help.


    I have only seen the LSE be mad about something they really care about. I don't think they get mad about things just to exert control. They think they know the best way to get "it" done, and then they are blocked, for whatever reason, from achieving their goal.


    I think the LSE anger as related to a goal being unmet, or to fix a bad situation, and then they can no longer contain their emotions. People never ignore the input of an LSE and will usually not fault an LSE for their anger, unless they are being unusually cruel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    What have you seen to remedy, or, further intensify the anger?
    I have done both.

    To remedy I usually do nothing, or maybe I will give them a look that tells them (hopefully) "Everything will be fine." If there is some practical issue which is making a problem (like lost keys or whatever) I will help them to do the task while giving them the "It will be OK" look.

    To further intensify the anger I just have to deny them whatever it is they want. This usually makes them so pissed that they stop and then see how crazy they look for being so mad about something so dumb. Then I give them the "It will be OK look." Because it will be OK!!! (Well, usually . . . this is not a foolproof plan.)

    Most times when the LSE has been mad around me it has been for reasons that I would not consider big enough for ruining relationships. I think that the LSE's actions would bring an end to relationship if I acted that way. When the LSE has been mad, it very rarely ends a relationship and this has showed me anger isn't always "bad".

    I really have never been around an LSE for a very serious problem, which may change the dynamics of this whole anger thing. I just think that the best way to deal with an upset LSE is to show them that "It will be OK". And even if it won’t be "OK", IT is still OK. IT is ALWAYS OK. No matter what . . . . “OK?”


    Edit: Oh no! Ahh. I was so drunk when I wrote this. I don't know if it even makes any sense at all! ???
    Last edited by Christy B; 04-10-2008 at 05:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    However, it is not a scary anger, but a more controlled anger that has a certain "maximum" amount and is pretty predictable. So it is much less scary to see a LSE angry than say another type.
    +100
    i know an LSE who yells and blows up all the time, but it never really bothers me. i still feel "safe."
    i don't know the exact difference between this type of anger and the kind from other types. For example, when SEE's get frustrated and start screaming at people it really annoys the hell out of me or when EIE's are really emotional and seem to re-direct their feelings onto me i feel really hurt and unfairly attacked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    I think they get mad because they wish a situation could be better and are unable to help.


    I have only seen the LSE be mad about something they really care about. I don't think they get mad about things just to exert control. They think they know the best way to get "it" done, and then they are blocked, for whatever reason, from achieving their goal.


    I think the LSE anger as related to a goal being unmet, or to fix a bad situation, and then they can no longer contain their emotions. People never ignore the input of an LSE and will usually not fault an LSE for their anger, unless they are being unusually cruel.
    Oh man I usually don't drink but last night I was wasted when I wrote this. It made sense then, not sure if it makes sense now.
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    He needs to have Arnold set him straight
    And this
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    There is one way to make some ESTjs angry, at least for a while. Probably other people too though...



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    Yeah, I want to kick your ass right now Sereno. It's true.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Yeah, I want to kick your ass right now Sereno. It's true.
    haha, so it was a success...

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    I'm getting angry going through this

    Maybe an LSE can help me out

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I'm getting angry going through this

    Maybe an LSE can help me out

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    Yeah, I can never get past the 3rd level! So hard... A friend gave me this a few days ago actually.

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    I get angry when I'm told I can't say X because I am Y. Like, recently in class someone called into question my ability to comment on the nature of organising a protest because she presumed that 1) I hadn't been involved in protesting, and 2) that because of that, I couldn't understand (unlike her) what is involved in protesting. I took huge issue with both her assumptions, and in general, people making assumptions about me and my ability based on how I present myself really pisses me off. As in, I can't be a feminist because I wear high heels etc etc. But that kind of anger fades pretty quickly, and while it would mar how I think about her, I would try to hide my annoyance with her beyond my initial outburst.

    By which I'm trying to say I don't think I have a problem with people telling me I'm wrong because of some logical flaw in my reasoning, or that I've made a mistake. But being told I'm wrong because of something I don't accept as reasonable definitely irks me.

    In terms of really totally losing my shit, the only person who has pushed me to that is my (ESFj) mother. We'd get frustrated and snipe at each other for whatever reason, and then sometimes it would just spiral out of control. She thinks (she's told me) that I can be very cold and can't understand why I don't want to talk to her about my feelings, so she'd keep on pushing until I completely break down. Which is usually quite spectacular, with screaming and sobbing and all that jazz. I do end up hurling insults and accusations I'd usually bite back. And I should point out I absolutely HATE losing control like that, and afterwards I sort of hate myself a little for losing it like that. But she thinks it's healthy, to, you know, 'talk'.

    If I feel emotionally betrayed by someone, I don't get angry. I'm just internally very hurt, and I'll cut them off. As in, they may go to being persona non grata to me, or I'd be very polite and closed-off with them.

    huh, don't know how helpful that is. I do think at least some of that is me rather than type related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    I get angry when I'm told I can't say X because I am Y. Like, recently in class someone called into question my ability to comment on the nature of organising a protest because she presumed that 1) I hadn't been involved in protesting, and 2) that because of that, I couldn't understand (unlike her) what is involved in protesting. I took huge issue with both her assumptions, and in general, people making assumptions about me and my ability based on how I present myself really pisses me off. As in, I can't be a feminist because I wear high heels etc etc. But that kind of anger fades pretty quickly, and while it would mar how I think about her, I would try to hide my annoyance with her beyond my initial outburst.

    By which I'm trying to say I don't think I have a problem with people telling me I'm wrong because of some logical flaw in my reasoning, or that I've made a mistake. But being told I'm wrong because of something I don't accept as reasonable definitely irks me.

    In terms of really totally losing my shit, the only person who has pushed me to that is my (ESFj) mother. We'd get frustrated and snipe at each other for whatever reason, and then sometimes it would just spiral out of control. She thinks (she's told me) that I can be very cold and can't understand why I don't want to talk to her about my feelings, so she'd keep on pushing until I completely break down. Which is usually quite spectacular, with screaming and sobbing and all that jazz. I do end up hurling insults and accusations I'd usually bite back. And I should point out I absolutely HATE losing control like that, and afterwards I sort of hate myself a little for losing it like that. But she thinks it's healthy, to, you know, 'talk'.

    If I feel emotionally betrayed by someone, I don't get angry. I'm just internally very hurt, and I'll cut them off. As in, they may go to being persona non grata to me, or I'd be very polite and closed-off with them.

    huh, don't know how helpful that is. I do think at least some of that is me rather than type related.
    extremely helpful! fwiw, i can relate with the first part of your post. i don't really think i'm ESTj but that sort of thing can bother me quite a bit as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    extremely helpful! fwiw, i can relate with the first part of your post. i don't really think i'm ESTj but that sort of thing can bother me quite a bit as well.
    If your not ESTj, or delta for that matter, perhaps you can explain why that is useful? I mean let's be honest, all you've done as a moderator is try and annoy the existing ESTj's (eg UDP)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    If your not ESTj, or delta for that matter, perhaps you can explain why that is useful? I mean let's be honest, all you've done as a moderator is try and annoy the existing ESTj's (eg UDP)
    only people from delta can be interested in delta quadra? why? because i have an interest in socionics. can you please stop harassing me?
    Last edited by implied; 04-15-2008 at 08:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    only people from delta can be interested in delta quadra? why? because i have an interest in socionics. can you please stop harassing me?
    Haha. I'm not trying to annoy you, honestly. But there's been a few posts where your clear agenda on this forum has been to attack me personally. And you know it. Not to mention the pm's you've sent me. I've tried to call the peace, but all you've done is mangle things to keep an argument going.

    Long story short, i'll keep the peace if you do.

    And, as a moderator, why do you think it is acceptable, and perhaps unbiased, to send me a pm to tell me to leave the forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Haha. I'm not trying to annoy you, honestly. But there's been a few posts where your clear agenda on this forum has been to attack me personally. And you know it. Not to mention the pm's you've sent me. I've tried to call the peace, but all you've done is mangle things to keep an argument going.

    Long story short, i'll keep the peace if you do.

    And, as a moderator, why do you think it is acceptable, and perhaps unbiased, to send me a pm to tell me to leave the forum?
    please don't twist the story here and make yourself out to be some victim. you pm'ed me first, to ask me how you could ignore me as a moderator since my posts bother you so much. i told you to leave the forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    please don't twist the story here and make yourself out to be some victim. you pm'ed me first, to ask me how you could ignore me as a moderator since my posts bother you so much. i told you to leave the forum.
    Leaving the forum is not a way to put a moderator on ignore (Expat has always said, if you don't like someone, that is what the ignore function is for) so instead of telling me how to do it, your response was to tell me to get lost. Gee, and you seem to think I'm the asshole. Ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Are you serious, or just joking around? If you're serious, it always does the same thing in the same spot even if you don't touch any walls. If you touch one before that anywhere it restarts.

    Yeah it does the same thing in the same spot. That's why I need a certain LSE to go through it.

    Edit: Wait, I think it's trying to say something to me in that area like some sort of instructions, but the voice is really faint. I think it's something where you have to turn the volume up to hear what it's saying.
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    Default Stressed out and angry ESTjs

    For an ESTj under a lot of stress, who has become angry and confrontational, what advice would you give them? What do they need to do to avoid ruining their relationships?
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    it depends on what he is stressed about, and what way he could be ruining the relationship.

    There are a variety of solutions. Someone like me, if I got in that situation, I'd want someone to directly explain to me that I'm being weird, and that I'm hurting other people in my actions - that would impact me. But do so in a very calm way, and have it come from someone I trust or respect.

    That's the first thing that comes to mind.
    Questions:

    - what is the stress
    - why is he angry
    - what relationships are being affected?

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    that makes sense. So what if it's an overloaded schedule, and being surrounded by people who are inefficient/wasting time (when there isn't time to be wasted). And mostly work relationships affected, but also taking the stress home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    it depends on what he is stressed about, and what way he could be ruining the relationship.

    There are a variety of solutions. Someone like me, if I got in that situation, I'd want someone to directly explain to me that I'm being weird, and that I'm hurting other people in my actions - that would impact me. But do so in a very calm way, and have it come from someone I trust or respect.

    That's the first thing that comes to mind.
    Questions:

    - what is the stress
    - why is he angry
    - what relationships are being affected?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    that makes sense. So what if it's an overloaded schedule,
    That might be difficult because if it is really overloaded, the person may have to realize that he overcommitted or "can't do everything", which can be a blow to the ego. I'd suggest pointing out how he's burning out, and, as I said, keep focusing on how it is hurting or damaging loved ones. That really affects me.

    If you want to work materialistic angles, point out that burning out and overworking and having bad relationships with people is not going to lead to less productivity.


    and being surrounded by people who are inefficient/wasting time (when there isn't time to be wasted).
    That really pisses me off, and yeah, sometimes I take that home with me, although I try to be sensitive about it. Again, what comes to mind is someone explaining to me how I'm hurting people at home, my friends, family, etc, people I care about.

    You can try to help him with finding solutions at work, but, that depends on how much you want to get involved, and also depends on what he can actually do.


    And mostly work relationships affected, but also taking the stress home.
    Pointing out, like I said, that being nasty at work doesn't help anything may help. Perhaps encourage him to be solution-oriented instead of dwelling on negativity. And also finding who his allies are and whatever - IDK what to say, because I don't know if he's doing things wrong or of other people are....IDK what the source is.

    But, focusing on how I'm hurting my family would affect me a lot.

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    very helpful thanks!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    That might be difficult because if it is really overloaded, the person may have to realize that he overcommitted or "can't do everything", which can be a blow to the ego. I'd suggest pointing out how he's burning out, and, as I said, keep focusing on how it is hurting or damaging loved ones. That really affects me.

    If you want to work materialistic angles, point out that burning out and overworking and having bad relationships with people is not going to lead to less productivity.



    That really pisses me off, and yeah, sometimes I take that home with me, although I try to be sensitive about it. Again, what comes to mind is someone explaining to me how I'm hurting people at home, my friends, family, etc, people I care about.

    You can try to help him with finding solutions at work, but, that depends on how much you want to get involved, and also depends on what he can actually do.



    Pointing out, like I said, that being nasty at work doesn't help anything may help. Perhaps encourage him to be solution-oriented instead of dwelling on negativity. And also finding who his allies are and whatever - IDK what to say, because I don't know if he's doing things wrong or of other people are....IDK what the source is.

    But, focusing on how I'm hurting my family would affect me a lot.
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    ...good luck...

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    Avoid them until they calm down, then they'll be reasonable. Have them write a letter to someone about what's wrong with the universe. The next day, they can read it and, if it was just the heat of the moment, trash it. If they still agree with it, hand it to somebody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Avoid them until they calm down, then they'll be reasonable. Have them write a letter to someone about what's wrong with the universe. The next day, they can read it and, if it was just the heat of the moment, trash it. If they still agree with it, hand it to somebody.
    ‘Otherwise, my anger consists of me running somewhere quiet and kicking something. I shout and scream at walls, not usually at other people.’
    Mmm....
    I can see how writing would help, but, as I said before - it may work for DA but it doesn't work for me. The absolute last thing I want to do when I'm extremely angry is sit down and write an essay or letter about it. In fact, that tends to worsen my state, because I'm dwelling on it. I prefer quick, albeit violent releases. It's less appealing to prolong such a state, and the more I linger, or write something, the more clouded my mind becomes with anger.

    That happened to me a lot on the forum, I'd spend a long time writing posts to someone who pissed me off. Then they'd respond, and I'd spend even more time, and then it would turn into this cycle that I would be thinking about 'ammunition' I could use to destroy that person or other such things, all the time. I'm a little bit too serious and malevolent, when entranced, to be told to sit down and write about my feelings. (Remembering something: I think DA said she writes how other people are "wrong", or something like that. I am less concerned about being write or wrong in an E1 sort of way, so, I can't use essays in that way).

    Honestly, one of the best things is going to a safe spot and shouting with as much rage as I have in me. I can try to not hurt someone in that way, if its controlled. Also, physically doing things helps. It is extremely uncomfortable for me to 'sit down' or 'remain stationary' during such states, so writing really doesn't help me. (Reminds me somewhat of wolverine). If there is a punching bag, or sometimes even running, fast, helps. Stepping out and "getting some fresh air" is also good.

    The real key for me is not being in a situation that I get so angry. It has to do with my approach to the situation. Sometimes, being too angry is a drawback for me, especially if my 'opponent' is emotionally manipulative or trying to screw with you, or just responds in weird ways to anger. And anger damages things in general, if it spills too much. Real hate is a form of poison to me, and it corrodes everything I touch when I truly am entranced - regardless of how I try. So to that end if writing works, that's great. But I know for me I must expel it from my system somehow. And if it's sort of quick, albeit powerful or violent, the better. If I get to the point where I actually to get so angry, it must be expelled. But I don't actually get that way too often, which is generally an indicator that am managing things well, including my expectations (which makes me think about how EIIs help...)

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    so RYU, if you were in a job that made you angry (in the way you described) would you need to find a different job? Since there'd really be no way to go run or kick something if you were forced to sit in a meeting. Or would there be a way to improve that?
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    It depends. I don't know his situation so I don't know what the variables are - what can be changed.

    If it was really bad and unlikely to change, then, yes, I would leave. I see no reason to be around a situation that isn't appealing to me, and if I was pissed off it was most likely because questionable stuff or things I didn't agree with were going on. If it is just someone being a bitch or asshole or jerk then perhaps I could deal with it. But if it is the overall structure of an organization, something that won't change, then I'd bail.

    It would be an interesting choice, if I was staying with that job because of personal investment, money, benefits, poor economy, etc. But generally speaking, it would be unpleasant to be in an environment where every day it sucked. It depends on the kind of work and how much authority or power I have as well.


    If it was just meetings that bothered me, I'd just suck it up and get through them - focus on something else, or just not be so involved.

    My involvement and motivation stems from my ability to positively impact something, or, sometimes, support something even if I don't influence it directly.

    But again, the leaving or staying bit has to do with whether or not it is a permanent thing. And also, how much of the situation is just something I can/should 'deal with', vs how much the bullshit is beyond my control.

    I would not stay in a situation where there is massive amounts of bullshit going on and its beyond my control to change it - I wouldn't want to be associated with something like that for my sake and my careers sake as well. But IDK how much you know about that, and of course, how much you can say here on the internet.

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