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Thread: INFjs having trouble with distancing/pushing others away

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    Default INFjs having trouble with distancing/pushing others away

    I wonder how other INFjs manage to deal with the need for space in a way that doesn't make other people feel like you are telling them to "fuck off" (I can't find another expression that suits it better). I've seen this happen to ISTps too actually. It's just that there comes a time that I can't deal with other people's problems, drama, conversations, and at the same time, deal with my own stuff. It frustrates me when I have to explain this need of mine to other people without it sounding really bad... Maybe my vague explanation will be understood?

    It might sound strange, but I sometimes feel like I need space from others when things are getting too intense and I don't have a clear idea of what's going on, even when nothing bad has happened. This applies to everybody, even my close people. An analogy to what I am feeling in these times is that things are sticking on me and I just desperately want them to get off me so I can see what exactly is sticking... Maybe this has something to do with an Fi description? The other possibility is that I am going crazy.

    In any case, it's like my mental sanity is on the line whenever I feel this way. It has nothing to do with me not liking somebody, but at certain times I just don't want to be expected to interact with that person/loved one. Of course, if I am needed for support in these times I provide, but it does take a toll on me. What's worse is that I also am not able to control my facial expressions with respect to what I am feeling when I need this space, and I tend to talk in a monotone voice without me even noticing and say "fillers" in sentences that try to portray the opposite. For example, imagine the following sentence being told monotonically: "wow... that's soooo interesting, nice, wow, cooool." I've angered the occasional people because of this.

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    Anyone who has been around INFjs or other reserved people enough ought to understand what this is. INFjs I know seem to get bent out of shape and worry about how this affects their relationship for them. But its really no big deal.

    I think INFjs are sort of like "omg, omg, I actually need to push people away and take time for myself", and it is somewhat difficult for them.

    But it really isn't any big deal. The fist few times it happened, I was like WTF, but after a while I got used to it.


    My Suggestion: learn how to properly inform people that you are in that period - when you are in need of time to yourself. Don't think that you can just not call or not respond or not say anything at all and expect people to realize what is going on - right away. Yeah, I get that people need to realize you need time, and you have your way. Yes. But I'm saying if you want effective relational interaction, just mention it. Learn to say "hey, I'm having a period where i need some time to myself." - explain to people that you are this way, and really inform them about it, rather than just shutting off.

    And, I would suggest doing this ahead of time if you can - before you're "in the bad zone" - because you might be able to explain it better, rather than going through the hassle of explaining it when you don't want to talk to anyone, at all.


    In reality, though, it's no big deal.
    INFjs are soooooooo giving of their time and energy for people, its perfectly fine if they need some personal time to restore their mana and recollect themselves. I don't see a problem with it.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    In any case, it's like my mental sanity is on the line whenever I feel this way.

    Yes, and that deserves respect.

    I think you could make good money if you printed out your first post, basically, and made it into a little business card or something, so that INFjs could hand it out to people they meet - particularly (or maybe only) if they are in a situation where their sanity is on the line, and would rather not talk. That way people will know.


    ...anyways,
    I think your avatars of Xavier make a lot of sense, because, I mean, he can read everyone's thoughts all the time and is so aware of things, sometimes he's just got to turn it off. That's got to be very draining.

    INFjs should probably make efforts to learn and accept they need such time to recharge. Or, perhaps, find a good friend, particularly Si creative, who knows you enough to understand what is going on, and will fend off people from disturbing you somewhat
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    This happened earlier with me with my family. At times like this I need to hide away, otherwise I am afraid I will say something I wish I could take back later. Unfortunatly I live with 2 betas and an ESFJ who think that Fe is the ultimate way to deal with things. I feel like they try to push me into fights so that they can figure out what is "wrong" with me.

    Usually I am good with dealing with my family, but today I just couldn't take it any longer. I felt like they were harassing me and I needed to get away. I hid in the storage room in our house for about 30 minutes staring out the window at the sunset while I heard them talking about how they could "help" me.

    Anyway, I didn't need help, I needed them to just leave me alone. I really just needed them to "be quite" for like 30 minutes and just let the world be. Yikes. When I do tell them I need space they seem upset, like I am being cold or mean, and then I feel bad and have to try and "make it better". I actaully hate this and think it is unfair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    Anyway, I didn't need help, I needed them to just leave me alone. I really just needed them to "be quite" for like 30 minutes and just let the world be. Yikes. When I do tell them I need space they seem upset, like I am being cold or mean, and then I feel bad and have to try and "make it better". I actaully hate this and think it is unfair.
    Do you think you have explained yourself properly?
    Like I said earlier, maybe talk to them about this in times when you are not feeling bad? Because especially Fe people will react to what emotions you are displaying, so if there is a lingering aspect of "I need to get out of here/negativity", then they will just interpret things as that.

    I'm not saying anything I say is going to solve anything, but I'd really suggest discussing this and explaining yourself fully - tell them everything in that post - when you are level. When the mood is neutral, and people are in a normal state. IF they are worrying about you because you are acting "strange", it won't be a very effective discussion, IME.


    Although in a different matter (concerning telling me the full truth whether or not it will have a positive emotional effect on me), I have trained at least one Fe type to really understand me. But this took persistence on my part, and really showing how much it mattered to me. I have confidence that an INFj can do this as well, provided those you are talking to really care. Most of the time your family does, even if they don't show it. But yeah, really make an effort to explain who you are and where you are coming from, and it can have positive effects. The biggest roadblocks to this for an INFj, imo, are an unwillingness to bring up "bad things" when there is peace, and as I mentioned before, a severe sensitivity or responsibility, should they actually do something that "upsets" someone. But that's just something you need to get over and work though. That may be easier said than done, but, it's worth it. After you have a good talk and good understanding, you can just refer to it later and say "remember what we talked about that time? Well its happening again". Or, even, if you're lucky, people will really understand that you just actually need time to yourself.

    Maybe I am blessed and lucky, but after a few talks with an ESE close to me about my issue (being told everything), it was really nice to hear how she respected that and said something like "Well, I know you like to know what's going on, so here it is....". I definitely tried to show as much appreciation for that as I could. It has been much nicer since that time, basically.

    I think it is ok if there is an air of "well now they are doing a favor for me" - let them do it for you, and make it seem like you are requesting a favor from them. You don't have to "owe them" anything, no, because that's like being ashamed of who you are and what you need, and won't solve anything. But if they see it like "well, I'm going to give Christy some space, and do her a favor" - that's fine.


    Ok, I think I've said plenty about this. I should stop and let people actually talk ...
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    I wonder how other INFjs manage to deal with the need for space in a way that doesn't make other people feel like you are telling them to "fuck off" (I can't find another expression that suits it better). I've seen this happen to ISTps too actually. It's just that there comes a time that I can't deal with other people's problems, drama, conversations, and at the same time, deal with my own stuff. It frustrates me when I have to explain this need of mine to other people without it sounding really bad... Maybe my vague explanation will be understood?
    I know exactly what you're talking about. I think it's important to start recognizing signs in yourself and taking precautions against possible outcomes. For example, waking up to a shitty day and phoning in sick to get your head right. Or taking a walk/bike ride for several hours to somewhere where no one will bother you. If you create space, people will eventually come to respect it.

    My friend (could be INFj, ISTp, or ISTj) and I actually have a safe word for this kind of thing. When that word is invoked, it provides automatic immunity - both from the present situation and possible repercussions afterwards. I find it works quite well, and since we created it, has not been invoked as often as we used to have meltdowns.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Thanks for the replies, I'll get back to this later since I'm really busy at the moment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    My friend (could be INFj, ISTp, or ISTj) and I actually have a safe word for this kind of thing. When that word is invoked, it provides automatic immunity - both from the present situation and possible repercussions afterwards. I find it works quite well, and since we created it, has not been invoked as often as we used to have meltdowns.
    Could you describe this a bit..? I'm honestly looking for a way to create better boundaries and this sounds like a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Anyone who has been around INFjs or other reserved people enough ought to understand what this is. INFjs I know seem to get bent out of shape and worry about how this affects their relationship for them. But its really no big deal.

    I think INFjs are sort of like "omg, omg, I actually need to push people away and take time for myself", and it is somewhat difficult for them.

    But it really isn't any big deal. The fist few times it happened, I was like WTF, but after a while I got used to it.


    My Suggestion: learn how to properly inform people that you are in that period - when you are in need of time to yourself. Don't think that you can just not call or not respond or not say anything at all and expect people to realize what is going on - right away. Yeah, I get that people need to realize you need time, and you have your way. Yes. But I'm saying if you want effective relational interaction, just mention it. Learn to say "hey, I'm having a period where i need some time to myself." - explain to people that you are this way, and really inform them about it, rather than just shutting off.

    And, I would suggest doing this ahead of time if you can - before you're "in the bad zone" - because you might be able to explain it better, rather than going through the hassle of explaining it when you don't want to talk to anyone, at all.


    In reality, though, it's no big deal.
    INFjs are soooooooo giving of their time and energy for people, its perfectly fine if they need some personal time to restore their mana and recollect themselves. I don't see a problem with it.
    Letting people know in advance about this is not easy, since it usually happens due to little droplets falling on a glass over time... I'm not the type of person that just wakes up one day with a bad mood for no reason. There is always some sort of transition to it, and I am not good at constantly discharging the little droplets. Though, there are cases where I might have said too much about something that's very personal to me and I'll just say that "I don't want to talk about it anymore" and shut off completely. Regardless of who it is, I still will not answer the phone or respond if it's to talk about the subject. Of course, it's nothing personal, but another thing is if it comes across that way.

    If someone would tell me "hey, I don't want to talk right now, I need some alone time, it's nothing personal," I would understand it very well and not be offended. But, there are people who are more into the talking-will-solve-every-issue business who definitely require an explanation, which I can never be forced to give. That's when I resort to lying so I won't be asked anymore...

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Yes, and that deserves respect.

    I think you could make good money if you printed out your first post, basically, and made it into a little business card or something, so that INFjs could hand it out to people they meet - particularly (or maybe only) if they are in a situation where their sanity is on the line, and would rather not talk. That way people will know.


    ...anyways,
    I think your avatars of Xavier make a lot of sense, because, I mean, he can read everyone's thoughts all the time and is so aware of things, sometimes he's just got to turn it off. That's got to be very draining.

    INFjs should probably make efforts to learn and accept they need such time to recharge. Or, perhaps, find a good friend, particularly Si creative, who knows you enough to understand what is going on, and will fend off people from disturbing you somewhat
    ha! maybe some kind of shirt, but I don't know what I could write on it... Seriously though, I feel like even telling a little old lady to please stfu when I feel that I need personal space and want no bs being brought on me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    This happened earlier with me with my family. At times like this I need to hide away, otherwise I am afraid I will say something I wish I could take back later. Unfortunatly I live with 2 betas and an ESFJ who think that Fe is the ultimate way to deal with things. I feel like they try to push me into fights so that they can figure out what is "wrong" with me.

    Usually I am good with dealing with my family, but today I just couldn't take it any longer. I felt like they were harassing me and I needed to get away. I hid in the storage room in our house for about 30 minutes staring out the window at the sunset while I heard them talking about how they could "help" me.

    Anyway, I didn't need help, I needed them to just leave me alone. I really just needed them to "be quite" for like 30 minutes and just let the world be. Yikes. When I do tell them I need space they seem upset, like I am being cold or mean, and then I feel bad and have to try and "make it better". I actaully hate this and think it is unfair.
    For some reason, has a way of feeling like being hit with a bat when I don't want to be harassed. I definitely understand what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    I know exactly what you're talking about. I think it's important to start recognizing signs in yourself and taking precautions against possible outcomes. For example, waking up to a shitty day and phoning in sick to get your head right. Or taking a walk/bike ride for several hours to somewhere where no one will bother you. If you create space, people will eventually come to respect it.

    My friend (could be INFj, ISTp, or ISTj) and I actually have a safe word for this kind of thing. When that word is invoked, it provides automatic immunity - both from the present situation and possible repercussions afterwards. I find it works quite well, and since we created it, has not been invoked as often as we used to have meltdowns.
    That's true, it definitely helps to just do some type of activity that involves excercise. The word thing you describe is something I definitely have thought about doing too. However, I think it only works between certain people, being that they have to really grasp the concept and take it seriously. For some, you just can't tell them one word and make them stop bothering you. Or, have them not think much over what you are doing at those times so that they don't think you are just shoving them away for some other reason, besides that you just don't want anymore more stress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Could you describe this a bit..? I'm honestly looking for a way to create better boundaries and this sounds like a good idea.
    This is a person who I am very close with, but as a result of bipolar depression sometimes has intense mood swings with little or not warning. At first it was disturbing to me because I could not understand what was happening. My first impulse - as any good friend's would be - was to try to help and 'fix' the situation by getting involved. Of course, this more often than not had the opposite effect.

    I finally realized what was going on, that in fact, just a time-out and 'space' were needed. But I still had difficulty determining when an episode was real or not, so we created a safe word. Sounds kind of cheesy for sure, but it works. Part of the problem as well was when something happened, the effect of guilt or the recognition that guilt would arise afterwards just made the problem worse. So they concept works in two ways: first to create a time-out, and secondly, to act as though the situation never happened so that neither of us felt bad about what had happened. And usually, after a certain amount of time when things have cooled down, we end up talking about it in a rational manner.

    I'm interested to see how it works out in the long term. It may not. But for the time being it definitely helps. For anyone else, I guess it all depends on how much a friendship matters to you, in the sense of whether or not it's even worth having that person as a part of your life.



    Just thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    That's true, it definitely helps to just do some type of activity that involves excercise. The word thing you describe is something I definitely have thought about doing too. However, I think it only works between certain people, being that they have to really grasp the concept and take it seriously. For some, you just can't tell them one word and make them stop bothering you. Or, have them not think much over what you are doing at those times so that they don't think you are just shoving them away for some other reason, besides that you just don't want anymore more stress.
    True. Such an idea would only work with someone you're close to, and who takes you seriously. Unfortunately, many of the situations that fall under the banner of needing space do not fit; the people who cause us problems are not those who are close enough to us to effect the concept, nor those who would respect it. My only suggestion for some situations like a professional/work environment, which I have personally used, would be to get a superior on board who could okay a time-out for you, where you can just go somewhere for a few minutes to forget the day get your head straight.

    Unfortunately, that requires a person to come clean with someone else about their issue(s), which is not always comfortable to do. On the other hand, it's at least a responsible option which conveys to yourself and others that you're trying to deal with it in a constructive manner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    Letting people know in advance about this is not easy, since it usually happens due to little droplets falling on a glass over time... I'm not the type of person that just wakes up one day with a bad mood for no reason. There is always some sort of transition to it, and I am not good at constantly discharging the little droplets. Though, there are cases where I might have said too much about something that's very personal to me and I'll just say that "I don't want to talk about it anymore" and shut off completely. Regardless of who it is, I still will not answer the phone or respond if it's to talk about the subject. Of course, it's nothing personal, but another thing is if it comes across that way.

    If someone would tell me "hey, I don't want to talk right now, I need some alone time, it's nothing personal," I would understand it very well and not be offended. But, there are people who are more into the talking-will-solve-every-issue business who definitely require an explanation, which I can never be forced to give. That's when I resort to lying so I won't be asked anymore...
    But wouldn't it just be easier to establish this before hand, so you don't have to lie, and then don't have to feel bad about lying, and then don't have to feel guilty about everything?

    I know it's not easy - it wasn't easy for me either. But if you think about it, the effort beforehand might outweigh the negativity that follows. Especially if this is a reoccurring situation. Just a thought.


    ha! maybe some kind of shirt, but I don't know what I could write on it... Seriously though, I feel like even telling a little old lady to please stfu when I feel that I need personal space and want no bs being brought on me.
    ..... yes, I understand you. I think for me I'm just going to stick to training people to respond so I can clearly understand them. Whatever works for you though.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    But wouldn't it just be easier to establish this before hand, so you don't have to lie, and then don't have to feel bad about lying, and then don't have to feel guilty about everything?

    I know it's not easy - it wasn't easy for me either. But if you think about it, the effort beforehand might outweigh the negativity that follows. Especially if this is a reoccurring situation. Just a thought.
    Although I'm not INFj, i've found that with significant others we've been able to understand when we've wanted to have some time on our own, even if my sig other has been an extrovert.

    ..... yes, I understand you. I think for me I'm just going to stick to training people to respond so I can clearly understand them. Whatever works for you though.
    Interesting idea , I'm always trying to train myself to understand others lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Interesting idea , I'm always trying to train myself to understand others lol.
    A little bit if give and take, how about that
    Besides, that's what the NFs are for
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    This is a person who I am very close with, but as a result of bipolar depression sometimes has intense mood swings with little or not warning. At first it was disturbing to me because I could not understand what was happening. My first impulse - as any good friend's would be - was to try to help and 'fix' the situation by getting involved. Of course, this more often than not had the opposite effect.

    I finally realized what was going on, that in fact, just a time-out and 'space' were needed. But I still had difficulty determining when an episode was real or not, so we created a safe word. Sounds kind of cheesy for sure, but it works. Part of the problem as well was when something happened, the effect of guilt or the recognition that guilt would arise afterwards just made the problem worse. So they concept works in two ways: first to create a time-out, and secondly, to act as though the situation never happened so that neither of us felt bad about what had happened. And usually, after a certain amount of time when things have cooled down, we end up talking about it in a rational manner.

    I'm interested to see how it works out in the long term. It may not. But for the time being it definitely helps. For anyone else, I guess it all depends on how much a friendship matters to you, in the sense of whether or not it's even worth having that person as a part of your life.



    Just thoughts.
    Thank you for this, force my hand.

    I'm going to try to implement this with an ENFj friend of mine who flies off the handle very easily. He's not in the most healthy mental state right now, and can become very critical and sarcastic for little reason. Your technique, I believe, could help to diffuse some situations where his carrying-on (and my response to it) could otherwise further damage the friendship.

    Honestly, it could go both ways too--when he does the aforementioned I usually come back with "what the hell is wrong with you," and on and on... Which never helps.

    I love him like a brother... I'll try anything. Hopefully he's open to it.

    Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    But wouldn't it just be easier to establish this before hand, so you don't have to lie, and then don't have to feel bad about lying, and then don't have to feel guilty about everything?

    I know it's not easy - it wasn't easy for me either. But if you think about it, the effort beforehand might outweigh the negativity that follows. Especially if this is a reoccurring situation. Just a thought.


    ..... yes, I understand you. I think for me I'm just going to stick to training people to respond so I can clearly understand them. Whatever works for you though.
    Lying makes things easier though

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I don't pretend to know much about INFjs. But I do know if someone was straightfoward and honest about needing space, I would give it to them. I think everyone needs space and time apart at one time or another. Sometimes hiding in a closet can do wonders for an agitated mental state. I know, I've done it.

    I realize it might be hard for you guys to be straightfoward about this need...but it really does help, because sometimes when people clam up they want to be drawn out and badgered and paid attention to....they get happy when you do......and get upset when you don't. And some people get upset when you do.....and happy when you ignore them.

    So it's really helpful to people like me if you're clear about what you need. But even if you aren't, I'll try to respect that....it's almost sort of painful in a way that people are like "Fe is being hit with a bat".....that's the last thing I would want to make anyone feel.
    I'm not saying Fe is bad though, it's just that my particular "need" at a time when I am under a lot of stress is different than what someone else might need. I tend to see Fe types as wanting to influence my emotional state to match theirs if they are happy, which is definitely not bad at all. However, it does make me feel bad that I don't have it in me to really match that state when I'm stressed (or even sometimes when I'm not stressed), and has a way of making me feel even worse to begin with. The fact that I can't control what I "portray" externally when I'm stressed, consequently hurting someone in the process as you mention, makes matters even worse for me. I just don't want an emotionally charged atmosphere at all, just "dry" talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    True. Such an idea would only work with someone you're close to, and who takes you seriously. Unfortunately, many of the situations that fall under the banner of needing space do not fit; the people who cause us problems are not those who are close enough to us to effect the concept, nor those who would respect it. My only suggestion for some situations like a professional/work environment, which I have personally used, would be to get a superior on board who could okay a time-out for you, where you can just go somewhere for a few minutes to forget the day get your head straight.

    Unfortunately, that requires a person to come clean with someone else about their issue(s), which is not always comfortable to do. On the other hand, it's at least a responsible option which conveys to yourself and others that you're trying to deal with it in a constructive manner.
    Fortunately, I haven't had a problem where I've really needed space during work. Then again, I had a really flexible schedule with my last job, which allowed me to take a break when I really needed it. Though, it really wasn't a "break," I just made up the work during some other time. A fixed schedule definitely kills me... especially, when you are expected to work continuously for hours.

  19. #19
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    A related story: Last week, on my lunch break, I headed out to my car to eat. On my way out, some coworkers invited me to sit down with them. It had been a good day, they were friendly and happy, and I liked them, but I needed time for... quietness. Nothing was wrong, I just needed it. I hesitated, because I didn't want to hurt them, but then decided to be straightforward, "No, but thank you. *deep breath* I need some quiet time." The ENFj at the table said, "Ah, I understand. [My daughter] is like that. Do you know she hides from me? " and then began to launch into a story(ies) about it. The others around the table smiled, and I slipped away.

    That's an example of when articulating my need happens easily and goes over well with the audience. The problem with "just saying it" is that sometimes it can't be said. Not as in, it shouldn't be said, but that it is impossible.

    Sometimes (usually, actually) my mind looks kind of like this (well, not quite - in fact, it's a bit different - but it gives you an idea):



    Rarely does my mind look like the following on its own:

    Thesis
    I. Main topic
    A. Important subtopic
    B. Important subtopic
    1. Detail
    a. Sub-detail
    2. Detail
    C. Important subtopic
    II. Main topic
    A. Important subtopic
    1. Detail
    2. Detail
    3. Detail
    B. Important subtopic
    III. Main topic

    or even this:

    A. Important subtopic
    B. Important subtopic
    C. Main topic
    B. Important subtopic
    A. Important subtopic


    When I need space, like what Sereno described, it's often precisely because I can't articulate everything. It's all become an overwhelming mess of pressures, or sensations, or emotions, or thoughts... It all needs a chance settle and arrange itself and resolve. I need peace, not further action. So asking me to explain myself at those points in time will generally not give you good results.

    Even a simple, "I need to be alone right now" is dangerous (from my perspective) and difficult because people are more than likely to ask, "Why?" And, I might not even be sure of that - what if I don't really need to be alone and instead need something else, like someone to help sort through it? Or what if I need to stay so I can help someone? So, when it gets like that, I tend to just follow my instincts and leave. It's just a need to get away, for things to just be still and stop so I can get my bearings.

    If I'm in a dark part of my mind, it can be especially hard to be articulate.

    (Also, if I trust you enough to let you see into the tangles of my mind - particularly if I trust you enough to have a logical and emotional "explosion" in your presence - and you turn away from me or condemn me for being "messy" like that... it's really, really painful. So, another reason to just go away instead of working through it with somebody else.)

    Another thing to mention is that different parts of the world collide with different parts of my mind, in varying times and ways as things shift, and it isn't always intentional. Someone may run into me while I'm in an especially confused place - and so it's not really their fault if I'm glowering and clumsy. But everything aligned just so. (I think that corresponds, also, to what Sereno said, about accidentally displaying the wrong emotions.)



    This is getting slightly off-topic, but while I'm on the subject of how my mind works...

    See those lines criss-crossing in that picture? Yes... that is analogous to how it happens in my head. They're like, hm, connectors, support, carriers, paths, etc. Sometimes those lines need to stay (even if others disagree, because I think they're important), and sometimes I want help arranging them - pruning, or moving, or adding. I can get quite tangled up on my own, even if I know the general shape or direction I'm after.

    It can be enjoyable to watch other people build idea-lines and -shapes, especially if they're skilled at it. It's fun to see where they can go and what they can do. Sometimes it's fun just to admire them (the structures). The complex, intricate ones can be quite pretty.

    I like solid structures, though, for ones that I keep. They need to withstand my kicks and pulls and pushes. I'll often find myself revisiting thoughts I thought were solid and established, suddenly unsure of them once more, and re-go over everything again. It's comforting when they stand my tests over time.

    If you want me to incorporate one of your idea-structures into mine, don't force it. Tell me why it's good. Show me how you built/build it and how it works. Then let me begin to play with it, and help me as I go.

    (Hm, is this static thinking?)
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Minde has been thinking a lot, and I'm glad for it.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
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    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    Lying makes things easier though
    Then you better not complain about your frustrations....

    It frustrates me when I have to explain this need of mine to other people without it sounding really bad... Maybe my vague explanation will be understood?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Minde has been thinking a lot, and I'm glad for it.
    It's been simmering for a little, yes, but I wrote most of it down just now.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Then you better not complain about your frustrations....
    If it bothers you to hear how we feel, then don't listen. Nobody's forcing you to hear us.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  23. #23
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    I don't see what the deal is here. Everyone, especially introverts, need time on their own.

    If your on your lunchbreak at work, and your concerned about your co-workers feelings, or you don't want to look weird for sitting on your own, just make up an excuse like 'you need to go to the bank' that way you can go out and spend time on your own.

    If your at home, and you don't feel like explaining why you want time to yourself, run a bath, lock the bathroom door, and stay in the bath for a while.

    If it's a significant other who doesn't or can't understand the need to chill or the need to spend some time in peace and quiet for instance, then there's more issues of understanding each other than just this, as if two people don't or can't appreciate what someone instinctively likes in these situations, then there's going to be problems with the overall relationship also.

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    I want to expand on what Minde wrote.

    The image and her explanation of it got me to thinking about what it is that I see in my mind.

    Not only are there connections between objects in my head, but there exist objects that I think can connect, I'm pretty sure that I can connect, but the connection does not exist yet.

    And too many times to count, I'll be lost in thought thinking about these intricate networks and tangles, and the tangents that I go on will draw my attention away from the present, which will typically prompt someone to ask "Are you all right?" or "What's wrong" to which I reply awkwardly, something to the effect of, "Yeah... I'm just... Yeah... *smile* I'm fine."

    Of course they don't buy that and they will then typically ask "Are you sure?", and before they ask the question I already know the direction they're taking it, so I confidently answer "Yes, I'm just thinking about different things"

    And any further drilling for information usually locks me up.

    But what is happening is, I'm spending time trying to make those connections that I think I can make. Sometimes I'll re-trace over paths that I've already established trying to find the path I can't see between the two objects.

    It really is like a spider web, but not as symmetric, and the nodes are of different shapes and sizes.

    I can't see the whole web at the same time. Only the object I'm on and relatively nearby objects. To get to an object that is far away, I have to traverse through several objects to see it.

    When I can't make a connection, I put it aside but it doesn't leave my mind. It's almost like a mental to do list of which each piece is associated with an object on the web.


    Anyways... I digress.

    This issue about space is usually broached whenever I'm lost in thought trying to make these connections. When someone approaches me and asks me if everything is all right. And if I can't make the connections about what I'm thinking about, then I can't explain properly what it is that I'm doing. There's no foundation to explain what it is that's going on in my mind at that moment.

    So, the only alternative is to switch to an escape hatch plan. Usually the connections will become clearer over time. Sometimes it's very fast, sometimes it takes several days or longer. But more often than not, I feel like that question gets asked at a moment in time when another person's assistance won't help progress the path. Therefore, the answers of "I just need some time to myself" or the generic "I'm just thinking about random things" are the only answers I can come up with. If the connections aren't there, then I cannot explain with any efficient clarity what it is that I'm trying to achieve.

    When I'm wanting to make a connection and something is presented to me that would distract me from being able to process information, I do prefer to chip away at the path, unless I feel like I need a break, or I need to be courteous, or something like that.

    So, even communicating beforehand about requiring space is somewhat difficult to do, because it happens on different levels. On one hand, I can't quite communicate what it is that I'm doing in my head, and secondly, there's a sense of respect that I feel like I need to show for those that are concerned about me or interested in what it is that I'm doing. So, I do the best I can with what information I have, and I will be truthful about what it is that I'm trying to do or honest about frustrations I'm having.

    Smothering me, or pressing me for answers will only shut me down farther. If I feel like you're being an imposing force on me, my head gets crammed very quickly. Not only am I trying to make these connections that I'm having difficulty making, but now I have to respond to something that is directed at me. That's when I shut down.

    If you have an expectation of how you think I should behave or if I sense that you are trying to finagle something out of me that I cannot come up with, I will shut down.

    Yes, I understand you are only trying to help. But from a systematic point of view, I would like to be able to handle things... one. step. at. a. time.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    The Delta mind is a very confusing place.

    But I won't be annoying and ask for a bottom line.
    Overall, I quite like it. I like depth. It's like substance over style. The superficial stuff gets boring after a while.

    I'd be suprised if there is a bottom line, but maybe there is

    (@tereg, I thought that was a good post, fwiw! Just thought I'd say )

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    The Delta mind is a very confusing place.

    But I won't be annoying and ask for a bottom line.

    I should note that what I posted above usually happens when I'm very contemplative or in a rut of some sort. Like really deep in thought. That's when I try to make the deepest of the deep connections.


    But I wouldn't think it was annoying at all if the person asking me was just curious (in a passing way) and just wanted to see how I was doing.
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Yes, I do too. I'm just trying to understand the connections thing.....and wondering if I should keep quiet when they try to sort things out out loud, instead of trying to offer help, because it sounds like they're trying to say they don't want input. More of a listening ear. I think?
    Yes! I like sounding boards. A lot. It helps me process the information. Edit: Although a lot of what I say when I use the sounding board might be a lot of garble and jibberish, it still helps though, I think.


    And that should be distinguished from a kind of, ok I'm going to tell you that I'm drawing a line in the sand, you stand over there and I'll stand over here because I want to work through this (in a very terse, rigid, wall myself up in an almost forceful manner)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    (@tereg, I thought that was a good post, fwiw! Just thought I'd say )
    Cheers! I appreciate that.
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    There's a trick of listening without judging, which sounds like what you're asking for. I'm trying to learn how to do it. It's (not surprisingly) quite hard.
    I think generally speaking if the person is trying their best, I can tell. I can tell when you have a sense of what I'm trying to work through or what I'm going through. And even if you haven't gone through it to whatever degree, if you're trying your best, I really appreciate it, and that's all that I'm looking for really. Even if I look like I'm still torn apart and progress isn't being made to make the connection, deep down I really do appreciate it.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    ENFps are scary when they do this. Quite removed from their normal state. It's like you're being torn apart, bit by microscopic bit.
    Yes. And that's why I avoid the walling off for as long as I can. Disappearing for extended periods of time is the manifestation of that, which is quite drastic and, yes, it does tear me apart, and there's a lot of fear that I feel as well about the ramifications of drastic actions like that.
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    And too many times to count, I'll be lost in thought thinking about these intricate networks and tangles, and the tangents that I go on will draw my attention away from the present, which will typically prompt someone to ask "Are you all right?" or "What's wrong" to which I reply awkwardly, something to the effect of, "Yeah... I'm just... Yeah... *smile* I'm fine."
    Wow, Yeah that exactly thing happened to me yesterday. I slept badly the other night and i had a headache. My Uni practial was using spss statistics and to be honest i didn't immediately get it. I basically got tunnel vision and was trying to juggle the fact that i knew i only half understood what i was doing, whilst still trying to keep up with the class lol. Anyway i had a look today and i understood it in about 2 minutes so i think it was mostly my headache. But yeah whenever a number of really complex or interesting events happen they dominate my mind and i get a bit detached from reality while i work them out. Its this kind of need that can interest me and piss me off at the same time. For example the subject of sociology is interesting, but to me seems near on impossible to establish a clear picture of everying in my head.

    I can also understand the need for space, I have a very strong need for this actually. I just do what Diana does, I dont log onto msn, dont return peoples calls for a few hours if it gets too bad. My friends are basically all Fi types so i just tell them "I dont feel like comming out tonight". ESTJ and ENTJ will normally try and convince me, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Often i will think to myself "you only need space because your a bit down, going out is probablly a good idea instead of moping".

    Fe when i want to be alone can seem like a brick i agree. For me its more like (oh my god i cant fake this today i dont have the energy). So the Fe person is using Fe on me and i cant reciprocate. Then i feel them closing off from me and its like ahh dammit. All that work to use Fe on them to bring them closer now gone to waste.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

  31. #31
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    That was an interesting conversation guys, thanks.

    For my part, I tend to be able to listen without passing judgement on the person. In fact I like to create an environment where someone feels they can open up and talk about stuff. I kind of appreciate that they feel they can talk to me, so even if they tell me they don't feel like talking, thats cool with me, because I like that they feel relaxed enough to have said that. Sometimes it's nice to know someone is there if you need them, even if you don't need them, so that is cool also I'm not sure if everyone gets that tho, and I'm not even sure I know what I mean here, so maybe I'm just weird!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That was an interesting conversation guys, thanks.

    For my part, I tend to be able to listen without passing judgement on the person. In fact I like to create an environment where someone feels they can open up and talk about stuff. I kind of appreciate that they feel they can talk to me, so even if they tell me they don't feel like talking, thats cool with me, because I like that they feel relaxed enough to have said that. Sometimes it's nice to know someone is there if you need them, even if you don't need them, so that is cool also I'm not sure if everyone gets that tho, and I'm not even sure I know what I mean here, so maybe I'm just weird!
    No way! I mean, maybe you ARE weird (I don't know), but not from what you posted here! Thank you. This is nice. : )
    EII 4w5

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    Another comment I'd like to make about connections is this: Making connections like this are important to me because they give me a sense of closure when the connection happens. That's why you see this internal struggle and why you see people like me go through extended bouts of frustration, because I don't feel comfortable about the chance of forgetting something I'm working on connecting.

    There's a sense of ... almost like a lost opportunity when I can't remember something that I was trying to connect in my mind. If I can't remember an object, or if I can't remember the path I took in my mind to get to an object. But once the connection is established, that's when I feel at ease at least with that particular piece. Simultaneously, I'm also thinking about different connections that are yet, unresolved. So, there's this constant process happening, and this constant unrest.

    And it is difficult to just, step out, and take a deep breath. Difficult, but still doable.

    But yeah, even this message I'm typing out now (as an example), I had some small tasks that I need to run at the moment, but I wanted to get this out now before I lose the connection I just made. (And thus, I feel a sense of closure about it)
    INFj

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Sherlock Holmes was an ESTj, right? Well, what better dual for the mysterious and complicated INFj than a detective? (Perhaps I flatter myself, though - maybe I am only mysterious and complicated to me?) ENFps can be pretty complicated, too.

    Seriously, though, sometimes I feel I need a professional investigator to figure things out for me - not just in the outside world, but inside me, too. "What is going on?" "Why?" and sometimes even "What do I do?" Not usually in the sense of "What is right?" but... more like "How do I fix/do this?"

    It's so nebulous sometimes. Don't get me wrong. I like nebulae; they can be very pretty. But it's so hard to get stuff accomplished with them. Especially when you loose things in them. It's so easy to loose track of ideas when they're not firmly pinned down...


    Bouncing my thoughts off of nice listening and talking walls helps with that. Especially if those walls happen to be clear thinkers. (Yes, I know, it's a silly metaphor, but humor me.) I do have a reason for saying "wall" because if the person is too engaged in their own agenda then... well, that does nothing to clear things up.

    Something that a lot of people don't seem to realize about me is that I'm pretty flexible in what I think. So, even if I say something like it's set in stone, more than likely it's not and I'm just acting like it is for the sake of seeing what happens and because I feel I need to take on some sort of position on the matter. Especially in the context of some sort of difference of opinion.

    When I'm in a disagreement with someone, I tend to fail at being concrete and strictly logical. When I try to be like that, I don't always know quite what I'm doing, so I'll take what's in my mind (nebulous colors and shapes) and approximate that as closely as I can in concrete terms - or what I think are concrete, logical terms. My reasoning behind that is logic follows truth, so if I've got the truth then the logic of it should fall into place. But I've discovered the attempted translation, from nebula to pocket knife, often fails miserably. And if I've got even a small portion of the nebula out of place, like I think a star is there when it's really not, then that tends to throw the translation even more out of whack. The urgency of an argument throws off the success rate, too.

    Metaphors help a lot, though, I've found - both for explaining to me and me explaining to others. Metaphors and examples.

    Hm, some of that above sounds like I'm wishy-washy, In a sense, I am because I'm open to being wrong and adjusting to what is right, but there are certain things that I hold true and dear. Beliefs and opinions, shapes and connections that I am sure of. Like my relationship with my family. That's as close to impossible to budge as anything can be in my mind.


    @ tereg - You and I seem similar in much of this. Not exactly the same, but I can certainly understand you and picture what you're saying. And, yes, about needing to act upon or record newly made connections, I understand. It's kind of like action solidifies it. Recording it now means I don't have to look as hard for it later.

    @ dolphin - You're a sweetheart!

    @ meatburger - What you say about needing to picture an idea in your head resonates with me. If I can't "see" it happening, either symbolically (sort of) in my head or physically in front of me, it's often hard to grasp. Just ask anyone who's tried to explain theoretical concepts to me.

    @ cyclops - You mean you like listening to this strange talk of how Delta NF brains work (or don't work, as the case may be)? You're willing to create a safe environment for this kind of open introspection? Also, about lying to get away, I really don't like having to do that. I think I'd rather face the bad consequences of being blunt than tell people an untruth about what I'm doing. Kind of - the lesser of two evils.

    @ ScarlettLux - Sorry if I made your eyes bleed.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    If it bothers you to hear how we feel, then don't listen. Nobody's forcing you to hear us.
    That's not my point. If I didn't care about any of this I wouldn't be here, nor reading the thread. It wasn't about my personal opinion at all, in actuality.


    My point was, which was concerning the remark about how lying is easier - if you are going to lie about whether or not something bothers you, then how can you expect to solve the problem? And if you don't actively take steps to solve the problem, complaining about things is just wishful thinking*. (Which obviously everyone is entitled to do. But if you want to change something, you have to do something, and lying about the existence of the problem won't solve anything).


    Do you understand what I am saying?



    PS: * Obviously, I have done my fair share of "wishful thinking". I'm not saying I am above this or better than you - again, this is not about myself. I'm stating a matter of procedural significance, that's all.

    PPS:, it sounds like you do understand me....

    "Also, about lying to get away, I really don't like having to do that. I think I'd rather face the bad consequences of being blunt than tell people an untruth about what I'm doing. Kind of - the lesser of two evils."
    Last edited by UDP; 04-09-2008 at 09:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    So, even communicating beforehand about requiring space is somewhat difficult to do, because it happens on different levels. On one hand, I can't quite communicate what it is that I'm doing in my head, and secondly, there's a sense of respect that I feel like I need to show for those that are concerned about me or interested in what it is that I'm doing. So, I do the best I can with what information I have, and I will be truthful about what it is that I'm trying to do or honest about frustrations I'm having.

    Smothering me, or pressing me for answers will only shut me down farther. If I feel like you're being an imposing force on me, my head gets crammed very quickly. Not only am I trying to make these connections that I'm having difficulty making, but now I have to respond to something that is directed at me. That's when I shut down.

    If you have an expectation of how you think I should behave or if I sense that you are trying to finagle something out of me that I cannot come up with, I will shut down.

    Yes, I understand you are only trying to help. But from a systematic point of view, I would like to be able to handle things... one. step. at. a. time.
    Then........... what should someone who really does want to help you - what should they do?

    Just sort of give you that space and let you be?
    Like what I've tried to do is designate this sort of a state as "that time" or "feeling like that again" - a recognition that you are in that sort of foggy state. And that way at least I can mentally be secure that I'm doing everything that I should be doing.

    For someone who cares about the person in this state, it is really difficult. Or at least it was for me, for a while, because its like you very much want to do something, make the situation better, give them a hug, or something, but it seems like at times there is simply absolutely nothing someone else can do.

    Is that true?


    And as I asked, in that situation, is it just best to recognize that you are in this sort of funky mind zone, and let you be for a while?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I think generally speaking if the person is trying their best, I can tell. I can tell when you have a sense of what I'm trying to work through or what I'm going through. And even if you haven't gone through it to whatever degree, if you're trying your best, I really appreciate it, and that's all that I'm looking for really. Even if I look like I'm still torn apart and progress isn't being made to make the connection, deep down I really do appreciate it.
    Could you expand up on that?
    Trying your best - at what?


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I'm not sure I can express adequately how reassuring that is. But just for the record, that helps. Alot.
    Yeah, I think I agree, I just want to be sure I know what is meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Sherlock Holmes was an ESTj, right? Well, what better dual for the mysterious and complicated INFj than a detective? (Perhaps I flatter myself, though - maybe I am only mysterious and complicated to me?) ENFps can be pretty complicated, too.

    Seriously, though, sometimes I feel I need a professional investigator to figure things out for me - not just in the outside world, but inside me, too. "What is going on?" "Why?" and sometimes even "What do I do?" Not usually in the sense of "What is right?" but... more like "How do I fix/do this?"
    It can be easy to see your dual as an LSE, then. They would likely need more help with "what is right", and be fairly skilled with "how do I fix/do this"
    Hm, some of that above sounds like I'm wishy-washy, In a sense, I am because I'm open to being wrong and adjusting to what is right, but there are certain things that I hold true and dear. Beliefs and opinions, shapes and connections that I am sure of. Like my relationship with my family. That's as close to impossible to budge as anything can be in my mind.




    So...
    It seems like the matter is not just that delta NFs want to just be totally left alone, but actually, they would prefer it if they did have someone they could earnestly talk to:
    You mean you like listening to this strange talk of how Delta NF brains work (or don't work, as the case may be)? You're willing to create a safe environment for this kind of open introspection?
    - a safe, nonjudgmental environment, that is supportive and lets them feel secure enough in expressing introspections and their thoughts. One where they will feel comfortable enough to talk about even the things they feel might not make sense, or have a lot of trouble dealing with?
    - someone who is actually willing to listen, and offer assistance in helping with understanding, doing, or fixing aspects of things?


    I remember another thread that I made some time ago, which was somewhat related to all of this, and a paramount factor in this type of communication is trust - and especially being sure of how the person will react to what you say. Is that true in this case as well? I believe in the other thread, what inhibited some INFjs from talking about things was the fear that the other person would react in a negative or hurtful way, towards what they said, once they really opened up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I can also understand the need for space, I have a very strong need for this actually. I just do what Diana does, I dont log onto msn, dont return peoples calls for a few hours if it gets too bad. My friends are basically all Fi types so i just tell them "I dont feel like comming out tonight". ESTJ and ENTJ will normally try and convince me, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Often i will think to myself "you only need space because your a bit down, going out is probablly a good idea instead of moping".

    Fe when i want to be alone can seem like a brick i agree. For me its more like (oh my god i cant fake this today i dont have the energy). So the Fe person is using Fe on me and i cant reciprocate. Then i feel them closing off from me and its like ahh dammit. All that work to use Fe on them to bring them closer now gone to waste.
    I definitely understand these experiences and thoughts. *sigh* Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Sherlock Holmes was an ESTj, right? Well, what better dual for the mysterious and complicated INFj than a detective? (Perhaps I flatter myself, though - maybe I am only mysterious and complicated to me?) ENFps can be pretty complicated, too.

    Seriously, though, sometimes I feel I need a professional investigator to figure things out for me - not just in the outside world, but inside me, too. "What is going on?" "Why?" and sometimes even "What do I do?" Not usually in the sense of "What is right?" but... more like "How do I fix/do this?"

    It's so nebulous sometimes. Don't get me wrong. I like nebulae; they can be very pretty. But it's so hard to get stuff accomplished with them. Especially when you loose things in them. It's so easy to loose track of ideas when they're not firmly pinned down...


    Bouncing my thoughts off of nice listening and talking walls helps with that. Especially if those walls happen to be clear thinkers. (Yes, I know, it's a silly metaphor, but humor me.) I do have a reason for saying "wall" because if the person is too engaged in their own agenda then... well, that does nothing to clear things up.

    Something that a lot of people don't seem to realize about me is that I'm pretty flexible in what I think. So, even if I say something like it's set in stone, more than likely it's not and I'm just acting like it is for the sake of seeing what happens and because I feel I need to take on some sort of position on the matter. Especially in the context of some sort of difference of opinion.

    When I'm in a disagreement with someone, I tend to fail at being concrete and strictly logical. When I try to be like that, I don't always know quite what I'm doing, so I'll take what's in my mind (nebulous colors and shapes) and approximate that as closely as I can in concrete terms - or what I think are concrete, logical terms. My reasoning behind that is logic follows truth, so if I've got the truth then the logic of it should fall into place. But I've discovered the attempted translation, from nebula to pocket knife, often fails miserably. And if I've got even a small portion of the nebula out of place, like I think a star is there when it's really not, then that tends to throw the translation even more out of whack. The urgency of an argument throws off the success rate, too.

    Metaphors help a lot, though, I've found - both for explaining to me and me explaining to others. Metaphors and examples.
    All of this makes perfect sense to me, and I most definitely resonate with these ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Then........... what should someone who really does want to help you - what should they do?

    Just sort of give you that space and let you be?
    This question's weight is compounded when I am made aware of it when I'm in one of those frustrated moments. When I'm in a very frustrated state, they will either clearly state something like "I really want to help you, but I don't know how/I wish there was something I could do for you" or they will demonstrate a level of concern for me that I can clearly see.

    And I want to be perfectly clear about this: it's not that I'm rejecting the help, it's just that there's something that happens where I feel the need to be able to explain clearly to the person what is happening. When I'm trying to figure out how to explain it, and I am unable to explain the problem clearly or coherently, then I won't be able to absorb the person's help. It would be blind help. There is a level of specificity that I think is required in order to facilitate and utilize your help. I can't speak in general terms and expect someone to be able to extrapolate something out of that -- "I dunno, I just feel... off", "I feel strange, but I'm not sure why", "I feel down" -- in my mind there has to be more specificity

    It would be rude to say, "Look, I don't think you can help me." I don't think that level of directness is the answer. Even if I tried to sugar coat it -- "Look, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, and I appreciate what you're doing but I don't think I can be helped right now." or "Look, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I really just want to be alone." That just doesn't sound... right. It sounds... detached and cold to someone who is concerned about me and who is wanting to help me. I think it would be an insult to say that to someone who really wants to DO something for me. I'd basically be saying, yeah, I know you really want to help me, but I don't think you can do it.

    And I don't feel that way, and therefore I will not say it.

    When I'm in that spot, a moment seems to always happen (after a delay) where I gather up enough energy to be very calm and frank about my situation and I'd probably say something like this (after frantically searching for a reasonable explanation) -- "Look, I appreciate what you are doing, but I'm just stuck in a rut that I can't figure out at the moment. And I'm not sure what to do about it."

    And the thing is, is I can't seem to come up with that right away. It takes a minute or two to be able to say it. And like meatburger's case, that's when this happens -- "Then i feel them closing off from me and its like ahh dammit. All that work to use Fe on them to bring them closer now gone to waste."

    But if I get the impression, and I feel like you're just pressing and pressing and "I'm not going to leave until you give me an answer, dammit!" and very imposing, there's basically no chance that I'll ever get to the point where I will feel that composed moment and feel comfortable around you. In that spot, I will probably nervously B.S. my way out of it until you do go away, and then I might avoid you for a while if I see you trying to call me/contact me.

    So, I would say, in short, yes, I need the space... long enough for me to gather my thoughts, and THEN once I've found a reasonable explanation on my own time, if I am fond of you and trust you, then I will most likely approach you to talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    For someone who cares about the person in this state, it is really difficult. Or at least it was for me, for a while, because its like you very much want to do something, make the situation better, give them a hug, or something, but it seems like at times there is simply absolutely nothing someone else can do.

    Is that true?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    And as I asked, in that situation, is it just best to recognize that you are in this sort of funky mind zone, and let you be for a while?
    I'd say that that is the optimal solution, at least for me personally.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    I think generally speaking if the person is trying their best, I can tell. I can tell when you have a sense of what I'm trying to work through or what I'm going through. And even if you haven't gone through it to whatever degree, if you're trying your best, I really appreciate it, and that's all that I'm looking for really. Even if I look like I'm still torn apart and progress isn't being made to make the connection, deep down I really do appreciate it.
    Could you expand up on that?
    Trying your best - at what?
    Sure. I don't expect everyone to be able to read my mind or expect someone to have gone through what I'm going through to be... "eligible" (for lack of a better word) to help me. And therefore, if I don't detect that agenda that Minde alluded to --

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Bouncing my thoughts off of nice listening and talking walls helps with that. Especially if those walls happen to be clear thinkers. (Yes, I know, it's a silly metaphor, but humor me.) I do have a reason for saying "wall" because if the person is too engaged in their own agenda then... well, that does nothing to clear things up.
    and you're geniunely concerned and there's a sense of... comfort in how you approach me, that's all that I'm hoping for. I mean, I don't have strict guidelines that other people need to follow in order to be able to help me. Insight does not discriminate. But if you're just being you, that's what I consider "doing your best". Just be who you are, but understand or try to understand that I'm struggling. If comfort isn't what you're about, that's fine. I'm not going to make you or expect you to conform to something you don't want to be a part of. But understand that I might act differently if you do choose something else.


    Continued in next post...
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    So...
    It seems like the matter is not just that delta NFs want to just be totally left alone, but actually, they would prefer it if they did have someone they could earnestly talk to:


    - a safe, nonjudgmental environment, that is supportive and lets them feel secure enough in expressing introspections and their thoughts. One where they will feel comfortable enough to talk about even the things they feel might not make sense, or have a lot of trouble dealing with?
    - someone who is actually willing to listen, and offer assistance in helping with understanding, doing, or fixing aspects of things?
    Yes, I'd say that's a fair assessment.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I remember another thread that I made some time ago, which was somewhat related to all of this, and a paramount factor in this type of communication is trust - and especially being sure of how the person will react to what you say. Is that true in this case as well? I believe in the other thread, what inhibited some INFjs from talking about things was the fear that the other person would react in a negative or hurtful way, towards what they said, once they really opened up.
    Yes, there is truth in that. For me, I'd say it's a combination of trust and resonance. How close of a connection do I feel to you? Do I think that you understand kind of my style or way of thinking?
    INFj

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