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Thread: Type and Hidden Agenda aka Activating 6th Function

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    Default Type and Hidden Agenda aka Activating 6th Function

    I was very impressed when I discovered the "Type & Hidden Agenda" module.

    WHAT DOES YOUR HIDDEN AGENDA MEAN TO YOU...EXPLAIN?

    Every person has a hidden agenda. This agenda often governs one's intentions and behaviour. People are often unaware of its origin, but can always feel its significance. Some people are more affected by it than other people.

    Every type requires an optimal condition in which it can function properly. If such condition does not exist, a person will normally attempt to create it. However, due to the nature of the hidden agenda, if and when the optimal condition is reached, the person will occasionally put themselves in a situation where the stability of this condition is threatened.

    There are eight such agendas/optimal conditions:

    ENTp, ESTp => to be loved
    INTj, INFj => to be healthy
    ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect
    ISFp, INFp => to understand
    ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy
    ISTj, ISFj => to believe
    ESFp, ENFp => to know
    INTp, ISTp => to love

    The ability to recognise these hidden agendas in people is quite helpful in type identification. Moreover, these agendas are also directly connected with some personal problems an individual might have.

    Where there is a problem, there is a solution. The following audio sample is taken from David J. Lieberman's audio book entitled "Get Anyone to Do Anything and Never Feel Powerless Again". If you are an ENTp or ESTp, you will want to listen to this audio example:

    © S&I 2001 http://www.socionics.com

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    Default Type and Hidden Agenda

    ISTJ,ISFJ = To believe

    Skeptical, critical, independent, determined, paranoid, sometimes stubborn… yep, that's me!

    My family has joked that I BELIEVE NOTHING AND NOONE. Although I don't have to see and feel everything to believe it, I do require overwhelming proof and a healthy respect for your intelligence to be persuaded.

    Also If I believe that someone has a malevolent slant to him or her it would take an act of God to ever dissuade me from that opinion about the person forevermore. Of course...that may just be stupidity.

    I pity the men that want to date me! Intimacy is a place of serious insecurity for ISTJ’s. I’m way too tough on guys. But that is only when I perceive them to be highly secretive or just plain sneaky. Very open and forthright people put me generally at ease.

    Doubting Thomas

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    Default Re: Type and Hidden Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearl Eighty
    ISTJ,ISFJ = To believe

    Skeptical, critical, independent, determined, paranoid, sometimes stubborn… yep, that's me!

    My family has joked that I BELIEVE NOTHING AND NOONE. Although I don't have to see and feel everything to believe it, I do require overwhelming proof and a healthy respect for your intelligence to be persuaded.
    This is very funny and a little scary. I work with and financial manager of this type (one of my bosses ) and she seldom believes anything I say dispite the fact Im telling the truth. The worse part of it is Im terrible with sequence and detail so I get facts mixed up. If I say something that is inconsequetial but not 100% correct she thinks "Youre lying again, liar." and Im like " Oh sorry that was Tuesday not Wednesday" Nope. Too late. You are a lier, not to be trusted.
    This just adds fuel to the fire. I dont think she is a bad person but she is extreme when it comes to detail from my point of view. Im talking about someone who keeps ALL her personal recipts no matter how trivial the item and keeps a log of her gas milage. When I mentioned this to my friends they all said "Is she Married?"
    Honestly its not all her fault. I should be more specific when speaking to her but Its really difficult to remember all the details. Even if I did my best I doubt she would be satisfied.
    I really need to find another job. We both would probably rest easier.

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    Creepy-Pearl Eighty

    Default Type and Hidden Agenda

    Hello,

    First off, are you sure that she is an ISTJ? I believe that many people would be ruffled if they felt that someone did not give them the "facts" per se.

    If she is an ISTJ, she sounds very rigid... of which I'm not. You see, I don't always let people know that I do not believe them. It is often even kept to myself as a strongly held belief. I admit that some might have sensed my perception of them.. body language is very powerful.

    I do have an aunt who happens to be ESFP who adamantly tells me things such as Magic Johnson has been cured of AIDS...or HIV does not exist....then proceeds to argue such rediculous points with me!!! THE ABSURDITY !! This drives me crazy and I have no choice but to shut her down! I figure she deserves to be labeled when she says such crazy things. She will never have credibility with me...no matter what she says now and forever. I will always question her logic. (and sanity)

    To be frank, I have problems with communicating facts sometimes. It is only due to the fact that I like giving "Pure" facts. I do not want to get meaning scewed somehow (nuances and shades of meaning)... this often looks like I'm thinking it up as I go. I have practised not to do this... but it can be overcome. :wink:

    I would say that you should not be so worried about it but she is your boss and you seem to have such a strong reaction to her comments. For that I'm sorry.

    Have you thought about only taking up certain topics with her? Or maybe having some proof of what youre saying...say ...a newpaper or magazine article?

    You may just be able to tell her the gist of what you're trying to communicate using very few words. When she asks you to explain, direct her to your source.

    I think that she is very rude to outright call you a liar. Something like that is usually done to humiliate and embarrass another person. If she is doing this at work...it is unprofessional!

    I have an ENTJ friend who feels that you have committed a grave sin if you politely disagree with his point of view... maybe she is entj. Maybe its matter of you "screwing" her well arranged view of the world. It happens!

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    huxley: your boss sounds a bit fault finding...I wonder if she means to be or is just clarifying the facts? Could this be a part of her personality or just the relation to yours? Do you know if she acts this way towards other people?


    I have a bit of a problem getting a good picture of what the "to be healthy" is exactly(well introverted sensing in general). Is this physical health? Or a state of feeling well? I'm wondering about how well this servived translation to be labeled just as "to be healthy". I say this because I just can't see this in myself, of course not consciously as well as in my behavior.

    introverted sensing: physical relationships between processes taking place at same time and place - how they affect one’s inner state; physical sensations (sound, smell, etc.), how one feels, health, aesthetics

    so the hidden agenda for white sensing is to be in a calm inner state, to be in an enjoyable atmosphere...I suppose. This is still sort of fuzzy. Anyone have any suggestions?

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    aha! I just came to a realization...aesthetics, I must have missed that one. I can see examples of this all around. My areas(car, room, work area), all alternate between ultraclean(which gives me a good feeling) or terribly dirty. My areas get cleaned real well, then I let them fall to filth until I actually feel uncomfortable with it, then I clean them really well again. It lifts my mood to be in a clean place, extremely dirty places annoy me.

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    Creepy-Pearl Eighty

    Default Type and Hidden Agenda

    Hey Metwain ... I found this on Sergie Genin's Question and answer site.

    A little strange, but maybe you will be able to relate on some level

    According to the theory of hidden agendas, I (INTJ) supposedly have a pre-occupation with being healthy. Trouble is, I can't quite figure out how this actually applies to me. As far as I am aware, I have no such obsession! How would the particular hidden agenda manifest itself?

    Since the hidden agenda is a subconscious process, "obsession" and "pre-occupation" are not the right words to describe it, and because people often do not even realise that they have got it, the hidden agenda can strongly influence their behaviour.

    Because of the nature of the hidden agenda, people either try to hide it or openly stick it into other people's faces. Both ways are the defensive mechanisms aimed to protect the weakest spot. The first one reads like this: "If I don't show others my Achilles' heel and try to divert any attention from it, others won't know where to hurt me". The second one reads like this: "Instead of hiding, I am going to attract attention to it, so it will lead others to believe that it's my strength". And since the hidden agenda plays important role as the "psychological circuit breaker", the second choice of defence can be quite dangerous, because overriding the safety feature can overload the whole system.

    For INTJs such limitation is their concern with an internal body functioning. One of the main body functions is food digestion. It starts when food enters the mouth and finishes when the food leaves the body. As a result an INTJ may experience great discomfort trying to eat when no one else around them is eating, as in their minds, this may attract unnecessary attention to their body functioning. Exceptions are close friends and family.

    Being healthy for INTJ translates as being physically healthy i.e. when the body works as it is supposed to. Supposed to? If you think you have a problem with your body just because it functions differently from what someone tells you it is supposed to - forget it. Each body is individual, and although there are common body illnesses, there are no two bodies alike.

    © Sergei Ganin 2003

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    OK I got it now. It suddenly makes a LOT of sense to me. I can see that in myself alot. But what I'm wondering is where exactly is this coming from? I wonder if this is a definition of Introverted Sensing or just how it acts in the hidden agenda...

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    imho the hidden agenda doesn't bring as much trouble as the fourth function, the inferior one or the point of least resistance. It can be called the conscious part of hidden agenda. If the hidden agenda is Si, then the inferior function is Se - they are both sensing functions, but of different directions.
    For INTJ the conscious need to be good-looking and strong enough, to protect his interests and to persuade people to do something can be really annoying. The point is that you understand you have to apply Se in some situations, but the function is not well-developed, and the experience of performing some Se actions is usually not a pleasant one - especially if they fail. It is in the super-ego block. You understand the need to do something, but don't know how to do it properly. And when there is some information from outside about how to do it, it is not easily accepted.
    Hidden agenda is in the super-id block - subconscious. You usually don't think about it and don't perform any actions by the block's functions, but wait for the information from outside. If there is none, you can feel that something's wrong, but not as clearly as with inferior function.

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    Default The hidden agenda...

    could anyone give a better description of the hidden agenda? Perhaos this is very beginner-ish and will annoy some... but i really kno little to nothing about it... I dont really understand it. Socionics.com shows all the hidden agends, yet, doesn't really give a description of what they mean. For example... the ENFp agenda accoding to socionics is TO KNOW. When I greet my ENFp friend with such he simply says "to know... Woo Hoo". I understand that it can be subcontious and not readily admited, but what I'm really asking for is... could someone give a better description of each of the hidden agendas, what they mean, etc., or at least direct me to a place that will? .... THX.

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    ENTp, ESTp => to be loved
    INTj, INFj => to be healthy
    ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect
    ISFp, INFp => to understand
    ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy
    ISTj, ISFj => to believe
    ESFp, ENFp => to know
    INTp, ISTp => to love


    Some of these are pretty striaghtfowards, the only ones that I myself also don't totally understand are the understanding,believing, and knowing agendas.

    I suppose the believing agenda could also mean grammitically "to have faith in something" or the knowledge that something is and will follow through.

    The other ones confuse me as well ... a better explanation would help greatly.

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    I find it useful to remember the correlation between 4th and 5th function.
    If a person is Fe-Si-Te-Ni, Ni equals his/her phobia. The 5th function Ne is an alternative way to handle intuitive information that does not trigger the fear. The hidden agenda is a safety blanket, something you don't really understand but something that keeps you safe from what you fear.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Harry bottom, I don't want to know how you get the name, but its funny.

    Alright, this is good that you are asking questions, ask as many as you want. Not only will you save yourself alot of time, but you will also provide a resource for others to look through, and also give myself and other forum members the ability to exercise their understanding.

    It looks like alot of us, with some outside help, are starting to develop a better understanding of all of this stuff(some mystery guest just dropped a bomb on us), but here is how it seems to be, through fusing a few different theories and tables I have read over the net.

    The hidden agenda relates to the unconscious 6th function. In terms of "distance aspects" it is a (-) function, which means it is theoretical, changeable, and aloof.

    It is a producing function, which means that it is an area of creativity, you desire to create for yourself something related to this function. Since it is also a "Weak" function, the creative acts related to this function will always been "primitive and lopsided".

    Here are the hidden agendas of the different types by quadra.

    A
    ENTp -To be loved
    ISFp -To understand
    INTj -To be healthy
    ESFj -To be perfect

    B
    ENFj -To be wealthy
    ISTj -To believe
    INFp -To understand
    ESTp -To be loved

    C
    ESFp -To know
    INTp To love
    ISFj -To believe
    ENTj -To be wealthy

    D
    ESTj -To be perfect
    INFj -To be healthy
    ISTp -To love
    ENFp -To know

    *note the transition between quadra of hidden agendas. This has to do with how the "rings" turn. No need to worry about this right now, let it all sink in and you will soon start to see many interesting patterns. This stuff is truly amazing.

    But here is a little bit of how and why the hidden agenda works and is stimulated:

    It appears to me that the unconscious functions hold in them personal knowledge and actions which correct our behaviors. This has been deduced through reading the function descriptions on Lytov's site.

    For me, being an ENTp, my dominant area of creativity is strong judging function of introverted logic , which manifests itself through . Basically this means that for my ideas to make sense, and be workable, they must fit with the outside logic. It is a strong form of correction(look above), the conscious and unconscious work together to formulate this.

    Now the weaker half of my consciousness(3 and 4) is not so good at this. It is childish since it is always inhibited by my stronger functions(1 and 2).

    Example:

    When I am wondering what others think about me, or am trying to get some girl to like me, I am never sure if she does or not. So, what I do is I try to figure out if she likes me using my , which will manifest itself as . It will always look pretty pathetic though, since it is such an inhibited function and I am never sure what exactly to do. But, like Segei Ganin says, I still "attempt to create" this feeling of being liked, or knowing how she feels about me by acting very affectionate(or mean, if I am really going neurotic)

    Activity and Duality:

    But, if this girl has strong I will not feel so bad, since she is really good at letting people know her emotions. I will always be content since she will give me all of the signals I have such a hard time reading.If it is REALLY focused, in the case of activity, where your hidden agenda is the primary accepting function of your partner, it may wear you out since it is CONSTANTLY being applied. This is why duals are so good, because the Strong creative function of your dual is your weakest unconscious creative function, whereas in activity your weak creativity is their strong area of application(how they live their life, their "program") and vice versa.

    Activity partners are so stimulated because each partner is strong and applied where the other is (unconsciously)weak and aloof. They compensate for one another mutually, but in the end they really don't need that very much, what they need is a mutual support of the weaker half of one another's creativity.

    This is where duals come in. Duals give to one another their hidden agendas as a sort of creative gift. Since they also have a strong accepting function that is in your weak unconscious area, they produce out of the accepted information something you truly need. A tangible, real thing that supports you and makes up for your weak points. Over time these little "gifts" in the form of words, actions, and environment, help you to realize your strong functions without feeling like you have to change yourself, since you also give to your dual what they most need as well.

    Deactivation- Direct correction with support:

    Illusionary partners also have your "hidden agenda" as a strong creative function, but they they are weak in your dual's accepting function, so they cannot "give" to you want you want, only something that is contrary to what you like to focus on. So if you are an ENFp, your illusionary would be INTp. They both have the much needed hidden agenda, but since they accept information from contrary sides contrary to , they cannot mutually give to one another a helpful product.

    Just so you know:
    An Ep duals with an Ip
    An IJ duals with an Ej

    The activation partner of an Ep will be a type of Ej, whereas the activation partner of an Ij will be a type of Ip.

    I know I have dragged on, but I'll leave you on this note:

    Just because two people share a hidden agenda does not mean that the hidden agenda will look exactly the same. These types are "lookalikes" but their problems are always on the other side of the same hidden agenda since they accept information in different ways.

    Your lookalike's dual is your illusionary. Your dual is the lookalike of your lookalike's dual.

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    Funny thing is that thanks to socionics I can get a long with my activity partner very well. If I wouldn't know socionics we wouldn't be so good, but I do know it and so I know when to act differently to support ESFJ. It is amazing what socionics can do.

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    Waddles is of course correct. The 6th, not the 5th function.
    In other ways my point stands.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Being an INFP, I think I've come to understand how the INFP's hidden agenda works. I'm real touchy about my ability in subjects like math and always remember when taking statistics class not feeling secure until I understood why the equations were true (an understanding which didn't always come even though I could memorize them by rote.) I also fear losing my ability to think or be logical which I think relates to an insecurity in that area. I always want to test myself with the various IQ puzzle books I have but never actually get around to doing it probably because of my hidden agenda. It's almost like I'm afraid I won't understand something. Well, hopefully that makes a little sense.

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    Thanks for clearing that one up. THe earlier description of your hidden agenda is kind of vague, so now we know what it's like!

    I might as well go into the details about mine:

    Well, my hidden agenda is "to be loved." Basically, if someone shows some sort of affection towards me, or says something good about me, my mood always increases by 1000%. The same can be said for if people simply want to be around me for some reason. However, if someone does something, say, insult at my PoLR, or someone is avoiding me for some reason, I get pissy and angry. Another thing is if someone whom I don't know shows some kind of approval/intrest in me, my hidden agenda gets sort of fulfilled, and I automatically like the person more and want to get to know them better.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    Typeless Wonder, I'm an INFP as well.... but I'd think a little diiferently of the hidden agenda. I think the meaning of "to understand..." corresponds more to overall meaning.... the meaning underlying things..... why things happen, whats my purpose, overall life type meanings.

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    My agenda stems from the fact that during my childhood my father never accepted me I am and no one liked me.

    So, I just want people to accept me for who I am ... because of this I am also very unconfident in relationships.

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    We shouldnt forget that wanting to be loved, wanting to love, to beleive, to be healthy are all things everyone wants. This is just basic human nature. Its the position of the hidden agenda in the psyche that makes it special, thats why its called a hidden agenda. I guess the extroverted ones are easier to spot than the introverted ones. I guess you can identify the hidden aganeda when you notice that someone wants to accomplish one of the phrases(ie "to be loved", "to love") without consciously using the function very much. For example my ESTP cousin does not use very much, but its clear he wants to be admired and loved by his entourage. He uses alot of to set himself apart by competing with others and getting involved competitions all the time. His competetiveness seems like it has the aim of making him an object of admiration, even though he really doesnt use much openly.

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    rmcnew Im sorry that your dad didnt accept you for who you were. But let me say one thing, I hope I dont sound like Im being uncompassionate: in theory, your hidden agenda doesnt stem from life experiences as your type is determined at birth. I guess your experiences would worsen your inbuilt insecurity. Ive similar experiences in my childhood were ive felt misunderstood and still do to this day. And I also fear rejection in relationships, which is why i never take chances with them. And I suffer from this a great deal. Again I dont mean to sound like Im invalidating your experience or your feelings, because im not, your experience is perfectly real and so are your feelings about your childhood. Im just saying that, as a technicality, your hidden aganeda doesnt "stem from" your childhood, though the problems you described in your childhood would worsen problems related to your prexisting hidden agenda.

    Feeling misunderstood makes everyone feel bad, but perhaps its especially bad if your an ExTP because it can be more destabilizing, since any threat to the hidden agenda tends to be extremely destabilizing. Its also bad for an IxTP because it threatens their hidden aganda too( if you aerent loved by others, much less understood by them, it becomes alot harder to love them, as its much easier to love someone who loves you).

    At least it may be comforting to know others have had similar experiences.

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    INTj, INFj => to be healthy

    How does this hidden agenda manifest in these two types.

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    According to the theory of hidden agendas, I (INTJ) supposedly have a pre-occupation with being healthy. Trouble is, I can't quite figure out how this actually applies to me. As far as I am aware, I have no such obsession! How would the particular hidden agenda manifest itself?

    Since the hidden agenda is a subconscious process, "obsession" and "pre-occupation" are not the right words to describe it, and because people often do not even realise that they have got it, the hidden agenda can strongly influence their behaviour.

    Because of the nature of the hidden agenda, people either try to hide it or openly stick it into other people's faces. Both ways are the defensive mechanisms aimed to protect the weakest spot. The first one reads like this: "If I don't show others my Achilles' heel and try to divert any attention from it, others won't know where to hurt me". The second one reads like this: "Instead of hiding, I am going to attract attention to it, so it will lead others to believe that it's my strength". And since the hidden agenda plays important role as the "psychological circuit breaker", the second choice of defence can be quite dangerous, because overriding the safety feature can overload the whole system.

    For INTJs such limitation is their concern with an internal body functioning. One of the main body functions is food digestion. It starts when food enters the mouth and finishes when the food leaves the body. As a result an INTJ may experience great discomfort trying to eat when no one else around them is eating, as in their minds, this may attract unnecessary attention to their body functioning. Exceptions are close friends and family.

    Being healthy for INTJ translates as being physically healthy i.e. when the body works as it is supposed to. Supposed to? If you think you have a problem with your body just because it functions differently from what someone tells you it is supposed to - forget it. Each body is individual, and although there are common body illnesses, there are no two bodies alike.

    © Sergei Ganin 2003
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    This is something i am just trying out. I think that it is probably good to imagine it alchemically.

    Bare with me, it takes alot of interweaving.


    Strong Ti + Weak Fi =>weak Se and strong Ne (INTj)
    Strong Fi + Weak Ti => weak Se and strong Ne(INFj)

    So you have to think of it maybe along the terms of Time Space Matter and Energy.

    Alot of inner Matter mixed with a little inner energy for INTj and Alot of inner energy mixed with with a little inner matter creates two different things outwardly(the product). Functionally/digitally speaking there is the same Se, but the other behaviors just make it look different. Sorta a
    wave particle thing.

    The realization of the power of one's creative process can be inhibited by pressure on the weak points, which interrupts this process.

    INFj's will be more likely to "focus" on inner relationships between things, and create processes based upon this using their Ne. They will be interested in emotions and so forth, yet will fear complicated structures and systems., so they will perhaps be likely to be more concerned over the threat of oppression by some strong force or system which they cannot understand. They may fear cliques and grudges, which they are powerless to defend themselves from. They will therefore appreciate wholeness and balance of these things. This involves structure, but not a forceful one. Te can produce this. Harmony amongst friends, warmth, security- but especially order without competition or closed mindedness(the delta elements of the dynamic ring). The Si assures correction of strong outer forces of Se. This, i will assume, will cause them to seek out social groups which involve intellectual questions and provide clear and ethical answers. Perhaps philosophy, Socionics, fields involving universal answers with ethical aims.

    INTj's will be more likely to "focus" on inner systems of things, they will develop the processes of these systems using Ne. They will be interested in patterns and logic- the details, the "point". They will fear the threat of rejection of these ideas and perhaps criticisms of their unsociability. They may attempt to create for themselves a social atmosphere which is warm and friendly, assuring stability and security for their strong functions to thrive in without need to defend unconscious against attacks on Fi and Se. So they will seek out friendly company and laughter and acceptance(Alpha elements of the dynamic). They will involve themselves in fun events of games and laughter. They will enjoy good food and entertainment as well as fairness and warmth.

    I am sure weak Se/Si involves many more "personal" paranoias as well, such as about the body and so forth. An INTj will first wonder "is there something wrong with me?" an INFj will first wonder "Am I unnattractive to other people?" of course this probably depends upon the situation as well.

    I do think that this is correct, although a bit muddled. I'll need to develop on the dynamic/static sorta thing, that's a little unclear and sorta untrue)its all about tying together the functions like a connotative wave.

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    "I guess you can identify the hidden aganeda when you notice that someone wants to accomplish one of the phrases(ie "to be loved", "to love") without consciously using the function very much.

    Brilliant.

    So an INTp would attempt to "love" another person not through means of a direct showing of affection, but by using Ni, or perhaps Te, to help them in some way.

    Would this ring true with you, Cheerio?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    So an INTp would attempt to "love" another person not through means of a direct showing of affection, but by using Ni, or perhaps Te, to help them in some way.
    100% exactly, however this isn't the hidden agenda. Just recently (like half an hour ago,) my girlfriend indirectly enlightened me on this and how it pertains to me.

    She always complains that I talk too much, i.e. I tell her everything that I'm thinking about doing or saying. I will often explain my next move, like "I'm going to shut the light off" or "I'm going to kiss you." She constantly tells me to "not think". Instead, just go with it. Do whatever you want to do (of course, that doesn't mean I won't get a negative reaction. :wink

    In Te Socionics, we define the feeling function as "the belief that you do not know something." Now, we know that INTps have a difficult time revealing their feelings for another, but why? It's simple, really. An INTp doesn't want to act on the belief that he can't predict the reaction of the other person. Often times, he has no clue to how another person feels about him, thus finding out could have very disasterous results. I have feelings for someone, and I don't want to feel wrong for feeling that way. This is the definition of a phobia of Fe, "acting on the belief that you won't know the reaction." Plus, this also expands to INTps usually being very careful and cautious.

    So how does the INTp get around this uncertainty? He can explain everything he will do in an attempt to find out the hypothetical reaction he will get; this is the Te way. Or he can give up all initiative and let the other person take control so that all he has to do is react, which he is perfectly and easily capable of; this is the Fi way. Instead of acting, he is simply "reacting to a spontaneous, unpredictable action," the definition of Fi. This is why only IxTps can truly be stimulated by ExFps strange moods and behaviors.

    So, I guess that the hidden agenda is used to bypass using the PoLR function, and the secondary function is used to bypass it if the hidden agenda is hard to come by.

    Hope that made sense.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Is the hidden agenda put in forth as a priority in all...

    ...stiuations? Does one "estimate" theings subconsciously or semi consciously according to one's estimative function in any given situation, or is it just something you use on occcasion, like something that comes into priority when your strong functions get used too much, and you need to compensate with some form of balance?

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    My understanding is that the "estimative" is how the creative fourth function manifests in the outer or inner world. This would make sense if you look at the term "vital" as in vital ring.

    So, for example, a creative idea which is weak is "estimative", rather than a "concrete act". See this? makes sense.

    Like the "suggestive" function is how one looks when they are overly accepting something. They will more take peoples' words for it, so on the outside it looks like suggestion. The situation will have a greater impact on them, they will have less control so they will act in excess.

    The more "estimations" you make, the more clear the answer will start to become. sorta like plotting the points of life. So the hidden agenda may cause people to use this creative function more and more when they feel insecure or uncomfortable in a situation they are losing due to their weaknesses. But it will always have trouble adapting to new situations. Perhaps. The hidden agends is how you want your outer health to be. You aren't aware of it, but it manifests through your conscious insecurities.

    So you have a relationship between suggestion and estimation, brought forth by a person's conscious sense of role(3) and diffidence(4). So how you are to others(suggestive and estimative), and how you appear to yourself(role and diffidence).

    But just think of a person when you are training them or something. You teach them through suggestion, and they learn, but their actions are always more estimative than concrete. obviously the type best suited for the job is going to be much quicker to learn. But they will appear to you to manifest the titles of the unconscious ring, while in their own mind they will be thinking "i am an employee trying to learn(role), i have to do this, i have to keep trying(edit: diffidence)"

    And so you have a pretty logical explanation of conscious and unconscious. Although I am not sure how it connects with the active will, authority phobia and neuroses yet.

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    I find very interesting your interpretation about self-viewpoint and outter-result... by reading it and talking the most insane and unaccurately eccentric reading of model-a may we think the conscious block is mutually corrective of the unconscious block? As trying to find a sense for the specular sign-opposite representation in correspondence with your analysis.

    Now there's a pretty intuitive, simplistic ilogical and suicidal explanation of conscious and unconscious ^^;;
    Balzac

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    Well i'm not quite clear on your opinion on this. It seems to make sense that the conscious and unconscious are mutually corrective, and contrary's are indeed described as direct correction.

    Illogical, I don't know. Seemed logical to me. Its about correction, how the functions correspond and so forth. Maybe my interpretation seemed weird, but i'm just trying to piece it together using the connotations of the words we have been provided. Could be wrong, but what else could those words mean, really?

    but who knows. We'll, of course, need more translations.

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    Alright, i reread my post and i see the obvious "weirdness" of it. I'll clarify:

    What i was saying is that perhaps the unconscious is how the conscious mind manifests itself in the outer world. Through "vital" actions we produce products we create consciously. The products we create come in different forms based upon the strengths or weaknesses of signals.

    A strong creative function will produce a "concret act". It is brought upon by a strong "program" which will express with the concrete act as "personal knowledge". Like if i built a doghouse someone would say "he knows how to use nails". A weak creativity, "diffidence" looks like estimation when it is carried out, hence "estimative function" and is, appearance wise, brought upon not by personal knowledge, but by "suggestions". Since the knowledge is weak. It always looks unsure, so always follows social norms.

    We aren't really consciously aware that our thought processes are manifestations of personal knowledge and concrete actions since we are too busy being consciously aware of the self, the me, the "EGO".

    This is hard to describe and is probably why we haven't been given adequate descriptions in any translations- just too hard to do in plain ol' english.

    But the term conscious implies awareness, the term vital(dictionary says: of, relating to a characteristic of life) implies how the body behaves, not what it is aware it is doing.

    I am convinced i am on the right track with this. it's no eccentric perversion of thought. just not so easy for me to put into words right now.

    Now my eyes have been heavy today, my thoughts rambling. But in no way am i talking nonesense. forgive the chaos, and look at the model-A descriptions. if you can't see credibility in what i say i am sorry for that.

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    I -DO- see credibility on all that argument.

    I now understand what your meaning was when you first wrote, outter perception of one's creations it's in a way similar the a difference between an idea and a word for it.

    You managed to find an clearer explanation on why functions
    1-2-3-4 match 7-8-5-6 on strenght and voice, being the latter ones the self we don't know and -in addition- we show outside in facts and behavior unnoticeable to ourselves. Plus adds lighs about the hidden agenda as an unconscious weakspot we unconciously defend...

    I need more model-a theory to read.... too much of a clue lies in understanding it well...
    Balzac

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    Default Re: hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by NFp-
    Quote Originally Posted by ayoforjager
    it would be interesting to look at the hidden agenda more closely for all the types.

    how would the hidden agenda manifest differently in an ISTP?
    Using their to create conveniences-- you will find them doing things voluntarily for you, offering their services.

    They might also strive to be on time for appointments.
    He meant how would an ISTP hidden agenda differ from an INTP.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Default hidden agenda

    I know I am out of date iwth my knowledge. But I am not keen to separate all this functions into 8 but rather think about each function as dubbled. For example, I f I have as a first function I am not bad at either but just not prefer to use it as it costs me an extra breath. The question is: hidden agenda is related directly to the the weakest function no matter if it is extraverted or introverted. For example if you are good at you can be not bad at and on the opposite.
    Do we actually need the 8 functions if it is possible to explain everything with just four?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    You missed the point =p Two questions of exact time of known sources and the frivalous question of the two was answered. Why? I want to know why hidden agendas are stated as exact so clearly with little back up information or further explanation. I want to know why specific questions are cherry picked. I imagine you had some decent ones... so why was my friend's frivalous question answered so swiftly?


    I seriously need to be more direct here...

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    Default Hidden agenda

    Bear described how the theory of socionincs explains the hidden agenda with a good interpretation. It all seems to be right but at the same time i think something is missing in all existing explanations of hidden agenda. If it would be better.. then we could look at how Ganin presents it and we would actually know what does it means for each type. As ISFJ I suppose to ask myself according to theory: What I didn't think/consider properly through in advance (my six function) that now I am so concerned with my weak -inability to analyse events/objects. My hidden agenda is to belive. What is it I suppose to belive in to?

    This is all rationalisations! I am looking for a sense. If I feel blue then I know only how I feel and the reasons may be vague. For example, i feel that i don't what to study -my fourth function is . Why I don't want to study - i don't know. So i feel depressive/passive and all what i know - I don't want to do that! Eventually I push myself without any rationalisations - thanks to my second strong function and to the fact that I am rational (Stick to the plan) Of course, i will be worried about time - always as my weak function is intuition .
    I do not see how I ratinaly say to myself: I have to believe that things will be fine at the end - I will be still worrying and doing what i have to do at the same time. But i do say it very often to people in converations if i see them to be low/blue because people may have los self-esteem and etc. So may be hidden agenda is associated with low self -esteem at the times when our weak function kicks off for some reason.

    As it has been mentioned earlier here that the role function is counscious so we know only that we feel low and that may be we don't want to do something which can provide for us sort of a reason: I don't want to do that - this is why I feel blue. Normally, i don't think people go any further than that - they rather looking for sloutions to change or simply to escape by doing nice things for themselves like sleeping, drinking and etc...

    I already described the situations when my third/PolR/ weak function is activated
    1. overload of my second function - behaving in a different mode (rationality versus irrationality) For example, I feel pressure as i have to play an extravert....or organise a trip in a short period of time ( I always worried to leave behind something and I get very focused on what I am doing.

    2. too much pressure from the role function (more than I capable of to handle at a time)

    This situations do put my confidence under pressure. Of course I dont like people to go on my nerves about the negative consequences in the future but it does not make me feel sad as such I just ask them to shut up.

    I believe, my hidden agenda suppose to do something positive at the minor and major levels to help me to get through. It drives me to know more and thanks to socionincs I just tell to myself - I know why I worry- I don't feel the time and see the the danger in every stranger - that's not a real danger but rather my imperfection.
    I also try to control my irrational drives .

    I wonder how other types experience hidden agenda/weak function?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default simplification

    I am still here thinking about the working on the third function of mine in the Model K: and this is the fourth function in model A.

    In model A my 6 function will be and my fourth will be . Most of the time I am not bothered about having weak intuition. Even if i have a problem with time it does not bother me all the time and in some situations i can easily ignore it: being late does not bother me too much if it is doctor appoinment or some other trivial matters. But it does bother me more if it is about something i care like my first function (people, relationships) and my role function and mu mistakes on the .


    Now look at other types like INTJ . He also lives his life without thinking too much about his or But What if it relates to his role function which would be . For example, he has not get enough of comfort, attention, emotional support, quality time, he wants somebody to look after him as he is to busy for it. This activates his weak function he feels demobilised and feels powerless to do something about it. This will holds him back from some form of involvement in ethical behaviour like coming up to the partner, to start the talk, to invite out or just do anything about it. On the opposite he will get more passive and withdraw.
    This is the way the weakest function works for him. why it is to be healthy? Because he is not willing, capable or consciously interested to do something abut his health or inner world comfort. He has to opush himself but how? if his weak function is .

    Would anybody be interested to explain it from the point of the other types? Does it make sense? common INTJ give me you opinion/critic!
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Default Hidden Agenda anomalies?

    I'm usually a incurable lurker at these things, but I've been thinking about something that's nagged me..
    Alright, so I think everyone sees all the time how there are anomalies and exceptions in intertype theory (conflicting relations going along fine etc.).
    However, in all the people I've typed personally, not ONE hasn't manifested their type's hidden agenda in one way or another. So I'm wondering... Does anyone have any experience to the contrary or is HA basically waterproof?

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    Default Re: Hidden Agenda anomalies?

    Quote Originally Posted by kopernikus
    I'm usually a incurable lurker at these things, but I've been thinking about something that's nagged me..
    Alright, so I think everyone sees all the time how there are anomalies and exceptions in intertype theory (conflicting relations going along fine etc.).
    However, in all the people I've typed personally, not ONE hasn't manifested their type's hidden agenda in one way or another. So I'm wondering... Does anyone have any experience to the contrary or is HA basically waterproof?
    I assume it is called hidden agenda, cos it is not suppose to be obvious. Look at people around you, do you see their genitals? They hide it from other people yet it doesn't stop them from talking about it, capish?

    Oh, and I've never seen conflicting relationship going along fine, never!

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    Default Re: Hidden Agenda anomalies?

    Quote Originally Posted by reniarbon
    I assume it is called hidden agenda, cos it is not suppose to be obvious. Look at people around you, do you see their genitals? They hide it from other people yet it doesn't stop them from talking about it, capish?

    Oh, and I've never seen conflicting relationship going along fine, never!
    Sorry, I don't see how this answers my question... My point was that even the hidden agenda is hidden, it's pretty obvious after a while, and so I wondered whether anyone ever met someone who seemed not to HAVE the hidden agenda of their type, just like types sometimes seem not to interact with each other in the ways predicted by the theory...

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