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Thread: Differences between ISFj-ENTj and INTp-ESFp dualities

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    Default Differences between ISFj-ENTj and INTp-ESFp dualities

    Some conclusions I've reached, from interactions with SEEs, ILIs, ESIs.

    SEEs can be very "explosive" and impulsive, they can lash out their frustration, even anger, at who's around them. They use their to try to get things moving, frustrated, and often expecting others to do things that can't be done (at least not yet), because of their HA.

    That doesn't happen with LIEs and ESIs, who, in the absence of very bad crises, have a much calmer and even "robotic" interaction that puzzles the non-LIE and non-ESI fools.

    One effect of this is that both the LIE and the ESI can get rather upset when the target of one such SEE "explosion": the LIE because the dual-seeking will go, "my relationship with the SEE is very bad", while the ESI will resent stress on their dual-seeking as in "maybe I'm being incompetent?" even if it's the SEE's that's bonkers.

    The ILI is not affected, because the ILI's is strong enough to realize that such explosions are meaningless in the context of the big picture and long-term relationship (), due to the PoLR the ILI is not concerned with the anger aspect, and their is not affected, either.

    So the ILI's reaction is exactly what the SEE needs: "calm down, you're blowing things out of proportion, things will be done but it will take a while more, it's no big deal".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    more or less, yeah. i'd have some very particular quibbles with what is described here and my personal experience but they're minute enough so that it's not really even worth getting into.

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    Sounds correct. Though rather sketchy, Expat's description is in accordance with my real life experiences of these relations in the complete Gamma quadra I attend on a regular basis. My girlfriend is an ESI and we often mix with an LIE and his SEE wife.

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    i love this thread expat! i definitely relate to the SEE explosions, but can u clarify or give an example of how they have to do with my HA?
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    This sort of thing would be good for all quadras. But he'd better know what he's talking about - obviously he started with the one he understood best.



    LII-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    i love this thread expat! i definitely relate to the SEE explosions, but can u clarify or give an example of how they have to do with my HA?
    They have to do with the HA in the context of trying to get something done and knowing how to do it.

    So, suppose the SEE suddenly realizes that something had to be done (like, fixing something, organizing something, etc) but is not done yet, and goes , "wtf nothing is happening!, especially if it was the LIE, ESI or ILI who were supposed to do it (since the SEE doesn't really now how, not very well)/

    The SEE goes "hey why you guys haven't done it yet? There is no time to waste! Don't be so lazy! Don't you realize it's important? Get moving! You promised you could do it, so why don't you do it. I could have done it much more quickly. I don't think I should have believed any of you could do it! But it's so easy!" And bla-bla-bla etc etc.

    The HA is in the "I could have done it, it's so easy, etc".

    Reactions:

    LIE: the LIE knows that (1) it wasn't so easy, (2) it couldn't have been done it more quickly and (3) certainly not by the SEE, so the LIE thinks "why all this nonsense? Is it something personal?! Is it a personal attack? But -- why? What is going on here?" concerns.

    ESI: the ESI does not think it's something personal, so the ESI thinks "could the SEE be right? Maybe I can't do it well enough? Well if the SEE knows how to do it, why not give some help rather than expect me to do everthing?" concerns.

    ILI: the ILI understands everything: "no the SEE couldn't do it better or faster, and the SEE is not attacking me personally; just impatient and anxious that it's not happening yet. Maybe I should indeed do one or two things a bit faster". A bit of reaction.

    The HA is in the argument "I know better and I could have done it better". The LIE and the ILI don't buy it; the ESI find it unfair since it's the dual-seeking, so the reaction is to be upset and "well if so why didn't you do it or offer to help?".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yeah, very good description!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    They have to do with the HA in the context of trying to get something done and knowing how to do it.

    So, suppose the SEE suddenly realizes that something had to be done (like, fixing something, organizing something, etc) but is not done yet, and goes , "wtf nothing is happening!, especially if it was the LIE, ESI or ILI who were supposed to do it (since the SEE doesn't really now how, not very well)/

    The SEE goes "hey why you guys haven't done it yet? There is no time to waste! Don't be so lazy! Don't you realize it's important? Get moving! You promised you could do it, so why don't you do it. I could have done it much more quickly. I don't think I should have believed any of you could do it! But it's so easy!" And bla-bla-bla etc etc.

    The HA is in the "I could have done it, it's so easy, etc".

    Reactions:

    LIE: the LIE knows that (1) it wasn't so easy, (2) it couldn't have been done it more quickly and (3) certainly not by the SEE, so the LIE thinks "why all this nonsense? Is it something personal?! Is it a personal attack? But -- why? What is going on here?" concerns.

    ESI: the ESI does not think it's something personal, so the ESI thinks "could the SEE be right? Maybe I can't do it well enough? Well if the SEE knows how to do it, why not give some help rather than expect me to do everthing?" concerns.

    ILI: the ILI understands everything: "no the SEE couldn't do it better or faster, and the SEE is not attacking me personally; just impatient and anxious that it's not happening yet. Maybe I should indeed do one or two things a bit faster". A bit of reaction.

    The HA is in the argument "I know better and I could have done it better". The LIE and the ILI don't buy it; the ESI find it unfair since it's the dual-seeking, so the reaction is to be upset and "well if so why didn't you do it or offer to help?".

    haha wow i think that is true. i remember when getting the socionics club up and running all this paperwork had to get done and meetings with people and getting this signed blah, blah, blah and i told some of the other officers to do stuff cuz i was getting sick and tired of doing so much myself. when no one was doing nething i freaked out and was like i can't do it all, goddamn it! and had a freakout. however, the ILI was mad at me too cuz he was like wtf i wanted your but not like this haha. anyway, since every one of the officers were irrational types and mad at me i had to do it all myself which my is still not quite over... sry everyone if a SEE has ever exploded on u!
    ESFp-Fi sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    LIE: the LIE knows that (1) it wasn't so easy, (2) it couldn't have been done it more quickly and (3) certainly not by the SEE, so the LIE thinks "why all this nonsense? Is it something personal?! Is it a personal attack? But -- why? What is going on here?" concerns.
    That's exactly the kind of response I have to such things, but without the strong accent on Fi concerns (still present thou). And I would be slightly pissed off by the "unnecessary" Se reaction. You don't just "suddenly" notice that things aren't done, and out of the blue, just bam, yell at me. Shut up! (seriously, I don't understand the need for sudden bursts like that. If they care, people should keep track of things all the time, and more or less know where they're at at any given moment in time.)
    Last edited by Park; 04-04-2008 at 09:48 PM.
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    the description seems biased. I have interacted with some troubled ESIs. They may not explode the way SEE does; well, they aren't extraverts, so they don't manifest their troubles in as much of an extraveted way.. but this doesn't mean they .. err, don't have them. And your inability to see them, speaks to you being an extravert.
    ...

    I have noticed the dominant function subtypes have more of these types of problems then the secondary function subtypes.

    One dominant functino ESI I have known was constantly worrying over whether she was offending other people, to the point where she crippled herself from accomplishing simple tasks in life. For example, she was afraid to use a shopping cart to carry her groceries out to her car, because "it might so happen somehow.. a worker may have to stay a bit later to organize her cart back in with the others ..." ....... when I told her I thought this was pointless, and gave her a number of points which dismissed what she was doing, she got angry with me. Instead of exploding, she did something a little different... she became "unable to speak with me or be near me"; she basically ran away and tried to pretend nothing was happening. this is insane, it is just different then SEE. More generally speaking, you have SEE "exploding" in light of a problem, and ESI going into a fantasy world pretending the problem doesn't exist... all the while the problems remains and even builds in scale.
    ESI is not the calm and collected beautiful person you are saying they are. You are just blind to their particular weakness... makes sense, you being LIE and all..

    ;l

    for ILI/Ni.. well, I will tell you something about me in real life.. and this doesn't apply so much to the internet, which is more of a direct link with my internal frame of mind. In real life, ILI may seem calm and collected, but this says nothing about what is happening beneath the surface... sometimes there is quite a bit of anger and resentment. ILI can feel like exploding, but never explode.. because they see the explosion will be detrimental to future states of affairs. They repress the emotion... the emotion exists. They become emotionally repressed and distanced, and this makes things worse... the emotions cycle downwards. A defining point on health of ILI is "how out and about are they"; or "how into the world are they" ...

    For LIE... I have known 5, all only on a superficial level. From this superficial point of view, there are two things which stand out to me: 1: each LIE I have met has had some kind of obsessive relationship with pornography and sex, which they talk about openly... it seems to be the defining point of their relationships.. and for a few even defining their existance. 2: They seem to have an ideal point of view on the world and how it works best, and are closed minded to alternative ways of doing things; alternatives which are compromises with the way things are.. they have trouble reconciling what is (Si the weak function) and how things should go from there, with how things would work in the ideal world. For example, I once had a long debate about a LIE on politics. The LIE was telling me she was going to vote. I told her there is no point in voting for a number of reasons... : we live in alaska, so our vote doesn't effect the election.... one vote will not change the results of the election... etc. She says "you are a pessimist. If everyone had your attitude then things go to shit" ... I said this is true, but me changing my attitude doesn't change anything.. doesn't effect the other people who don't vote. Also, she is compartmentalizing her mind and what defines "optimism" into the realm of politics. It never occurs to her the thought "free your mind from the workings of the country.. find optimism inside in your life" .. this is the only real hope, but she holds on to the delusion of the ideal country

    there are levels of optimism.. and the most pessimistic person, has the potential to become "more optimistic" then an optimist who has never addressed pessimistic issues. Example, a privileged child has an optimistic view of the world and their future, until their father loses his entire fortune in the stock market, they move and lose all their friends.... the child now has to work in the automotive department. Now the child is a pessimist. What happened to their optimism? It was false optimism.. it was never reformed in light of pessimism.

    In some ways LIE behaves like the spoiled girl in the example, when their world is disturbed. First they fight to maintain it, ... things become worse if there is no hope for their world; or if things are not "going the way of Se".. as the hope for their ideal of Se is revealed as bleak. Etc.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 04-05-2008 at 11:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    The ILI is not affected, because the ILI's is strong enough to realize that such explosions are meaningless in the context of the big picture and long-term relationship (), due to the PoLR the ILI is not concerned with the anger aspect, and their is not affected, either.
    And here I thought they were just too lazy to care.

    Seriously though, I assumed it was the laid back-ness plus strong Ni telling them that it's just a rough spot that they can just wait out, nothing to be proactive or restless over.


    The rest of the description I can't say I really relate to all that much? I haven't had those types of problems with SEE's. I'm usually the one who calms them down and even ends up cheering them up (by getting them to look at the bright side of the big picture). If they know me reasonable well they tend to take my word for it when I tell them that there's no need to get all upset, things are fine (and that's when I would start explaining things with Te + Ni and positivism).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    The HA is in the argument "I know better and I could have done it better". The LIE and the ILI don't buy it; the ESI find it unfair since it's the dual-seeking, so the reaction is to be upset and "well if so why didn't you do it or offer to help?".
    I dunno, I've only known a handful of ESI's, but most of them would have more of a "whatever, (s)he's just pissed off and bitching" and see what's actually going on with the SEE quite well. They may say something like "then why didn't you do it?" in that situation, but I haven't actually witnessed an SEE acting quite like that, especially with people from his/her own quadra, so I wouldn't really know.

    I guess when the SEE's I've known have been unhealthy it's been in more of a clingy way. I've see them be explosive like that with other people though. And when ESI's are unhealthy, it seems to be in a more reclusive way than in a way that would make them too sensitive to their mirror's criticism.
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    We thank crazedat for another stock of useless negativism.
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    What? ... I don't get it. Why does negative = useless. Negative is the way things work out over time for established positives. organisms return to being dead as the perspective and scale which defines them is increased.. where organism can be an idea, or society, or a creature, or song, etc..
    A negative is more useful for an organism than a positive. The act of looking into the future is surveying an array of potential outcomes, one of which is the most favorable for the maintenance or growth of the organism.. and in light of this, every other being less favorable or negative. You are riding down a road, you are trying to stay in your lane so you can keep from crashing. The road is the ideal path for the future. The ideal path for the future is what defines optimism and pessimism. Eventually the road ends and runs off a cliff.. the only goal of driving is to stay on the road and not crash as long as possible, despite crash being inevitable. Every option other than the ideal path is to go off the ideal road, and is considered negative.. is looked at pessimisticly in light of the greater point of view. There is a certain anxiety about staying in your lane, if you know what you are doing. When you are driving, having an awareness of all the possibilities for negative, simultaneously means having an awareness of the ideal positive... it means staying in your lane. Pessimisism achieves optimism. If you are optimistic, you are looking in your rear view mirror and saying "hey look at that beautiful road i've just covered!"... or you may be looking in front of you seeing offroad as a great road also. That is optimistic delusion. it is stupid and useless, but i guess it is fun for some people. Maybe the ideal road is wider and consists of multiple lanes, for people who don't have any place to get... for weak organisms, etc. They can swerve all over the place? A bacteria can survive in many environments? Or they are driving in circles making donuts until they run out of gas and their car dies? Maybe they go off road but have the hope of finding the road again because they still got a compass?! ... Maybe they don't even realize the road will eventually run into a cliff. Maybe they "paint themselves white" and don't move... just sit on the road. Well, that is what ILI-Ni often ends up doing in life. I don't know about it all. Best to stay on the road and make a straight line for the cliff at the end of it.. be okay with falling off the cliff. Avoid falling off the cliff as long as possible? ... At this point, I don't really see the difference between crashing now and crashing later. I am confused, maybe you can enlighten me. Now it's sounding like we should all kill ourselves in whatever way we see most fit... just die. Or maybe what matters is whether your death creates more life? Kind of like how a tree dying creates a feast for all the little happy organisms.. etc. ...? But we are at the top of the life chain. The universe supports us. We are to support the universe? We eat the universe. There is nothing which needs us for food. Maybe we are just supposed to control ourselves and run straight off the cliff instead of toying around, so that we do not tear up the universe? Whatever we are supposed to do, we will die anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Everything will die. Infact, if you are not religious, I can't see how you aren't feeling completely crazy. Maybe it is your duty to help other things die? Or to show them how they will die, so that they can kill themselves without causing damage also. Or even then, why not nuke the entire planet and help everything die? I don't get the point of being alive. What is it, could you tell me? At this point I am thinking it is just to learn how to die without killing yourself. To learn to be eaten, or something.
    Well, I know one thing after all that. that negative thoughts are more useful than positive thoughts
    Last edited by crazedrat; 04-06-2008 at 07:07 PM.
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    This is a pretty interesting thread for me to read after last week.

    Good stuff.









    Thats all I have to add.
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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