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Thread: A POLR free world

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    Default A POLR free world

    What would it look like....

    A world filled with actualized people of all types...I imagine....fun and genius and love and....what else??

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    That is not possible because the nature of the universe would not allow it to be so. There cannot exist only healthy people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    That is not possible because the nature of the universe would not allow it to be so. There cannot exist only healthy people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    That is not possible because the nature of the universe would not allow it to be so. There cannot exist only healthy people.
    That was my sad face. I guess you're right. But I still...that's the experience I believe humanity is striving for.

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    What do you mean the nature of the universe would not allow it? Why can't there exist only actualized people?

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    IMO the reason that humans are not balanced is because they think there is something they're "supposed to be" when they should just *be*.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    IMO the reason that humans are not balanced is because they think there is something they're "supposed to be" when they should just *be*.
    But why can't there be a world where people are just *being*? Why do you think that is not possible? I want to know, because I get carried away into thinking that it is possible...but maybe you see something I don't.

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    maybe because some want something greater than their capacity to handle. Like, say, power

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    We could not be human if we did not struggle.
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    i hope my response is not off-topic.

    from the viewpoint of christianity, we got ourselves into a world where evil can get us by eating the forbidden fruit. that's why we can never have anyone being at their healthiest psychological states.

    from a non-religious viewpoint, i think people would be at their healthiest psychologically only when there is no longer this thing called scarcity: everyone could get as much of any thing as they wanted. and i mean everything from material goods to our looks, intelligence, etc. this is never gonna happen, which means we always feel less confident in certain areas with people. similar to what the comparative advantage concept in economics.

    i personally don't think that a world in which everyone's all happy and satisified is interesting coz we'd be seeing much less of what we see now. maybe i'm not really a religious person so i don't buy the all-good ideal. that just sounds inconceivable to me.

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    ah but you did not say struggle against what. Each other or...

    if not then there is an implication of an infinite loop.

    So are you saying that it is structurally functional (word choice on purpose) to differentiate and discriminate within the whole?

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    I don't think that the problem is that people can't be as good looking, intelligent, etc. as they want... it's that they think that they are *supposed* to be those things instead of accepting themselves as they are...
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    Back on topic. This world would be paradise. Everyone would get along with everyone. No one would attack anyones weaknesses, and happiness and contentment would be the norm.

    Honestly, my is the cause of most of my personal problems. It's pretty funny. If I could strengthen to the degree of it no longer being a weakness, I'd do it. So what if I'd want to cuddle more, or sing outloud in public when it rains, or kiss on the airplane, or cry at sappy, overdone romantic comedies? Fuck, the point is I'd be happy.

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    There is a price for everything though... you can't strengthen your without becoming less logical and objective. A weakness is merely a strength that has been taken too far, creating an imbalance. I think this happens when people believe that they're supposed to be a certain way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    There is a price for everything though... you can't strengthen your without becoming less logical and objective. A weakness is merely a strength that has been taken too far, creating an imbalance. I think this happens when people believe that they're supposed to be a certain way.
    Well hypthetically, what if you COULD strengthen your weaknesses at no cost to you other functions? I think that's what maiz was getting at, and I think this world would be a great great place.

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    I cant wait to take non-duality philosophy...

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    Joy, I'm starting to see a case for you not being a T.

    Let's count the subjective statements.

    That is not possible because the nature of the universe would not allow it to be so. There cannot exist only healthy people.
    Check.

    We could not be human if we did not struggle.
    Check.

    There is a price for everything though... you can't strengthen your Introverted Feeling without becoming less logical and objective. A weakness is merely a strength that has been taken too far, creating an imbalance. I think this happens when people believe that they're supposed to be a certain way.
    Check, check, and check again. I smell an ESFj on the loose.

    Back on topic...

    I think the cause of most of my problems is low self-esteem/questioning myself. I'm pretty insecure about my looks, my intelligence; pretty much everything. Sometimes I just don't try to do things because I'm afraid I'll fail, and if I fail, I won't be able to see my "idealized" self any more, which is an image I pretty much worship, if I'm being honest. If I wasn't so insecure, I'd be a much, MUCH nicer person, and probably more successful in general.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Gilligan, doesn't need to cite examples or reference empirical data. Instead, it makes judgments based on abstract internal reasoning. Joy is perfectly T.

    n00b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I think the cause of most of my problems is low self-esteem/questioning myself. I'm pretty insecure about my looks, my intelligence; pretty much everything. Sometimes I just don't try to do things because I'm afraid I'll fail, and if I fail, I won't be able to see my "idealized" self any more, which is an image I pretty much worship, if I'm being honest. If I wasn't so insecure, I'd be a much, MUCH nicer person, and probably more successful in general.
    My point exactly.

    As far as the ESFj stuff... and implied now say that I am definitely not an ESFj.
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    Since when?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Since I changed my screen name to ESFj and asked them to tell me all about my positive qualities as an ESFj... the secong thing mentioned was that they take good care of themselves...

    /hijack
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    Anyone who says Joy is anything other than ENTp is a sausage pirate.

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    ahahahaahahahahahahahahahah

    I SAID /HIJACK! If you would like to doubt my type, you know where to go! http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1794 but discojoe is right
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    IMO the reason that humans are not balanced is because they think there is something they're "supposed to be" when they should just *be*.
    I think I'm realizing what you mean by this. Me contemplating that I would be happier if I was self-actualized is the problem. I think you're saying that people should "be" their imperfect selves. Struggle to stay in balance.

    Holy crap. That philosophy is completely the opposite of anything I've ever thought.

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    There is no poon! err... spoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Well hypthetically, what if you COULD strengthen your weaknesses at no cost to you other functions? I think that's what maiz was getting at, and I think this world would be a great great place.
    This is more of where my mind takes me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    There is no poon! err... spoon.

    OMG Jadae! Stop, you're killing me!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    There is no poon! err... spoon.
    My husband tells me this all the time!!!! I can almost feel that there is no spoon....but then...people like Joy pop in!

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    actually, IMO...

    The universe is a series of equations that make up one really big equation. Everything that happens is part of inumerable cause and effect relationships. By definition, the equations must always balance. The equations are continiously changing.

    Internal balance not something we create, but something we allow. It is our natural state. We, however, live in a society and grow up in families and attend schools that teach us what we are *supposed* to be (good looking, rich, whatever). This creates internal conflict. The only way to realize peace is to let go of all of the supposed-to-be's. Read gilligan's post again... it's a great example of what I mean about each of us creating our own imbalances. Self-acceptance is the key to wellness and balance.

    Also, our relationship to our environment is a direct reflection of our relationship to ourselves. People with control issues with others are really suffering a control issue with themselves. People who hate others actually hate themselves. And the people in our lives treat us the way we believe we truly deserve to be treated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    actually, IMO...

    The universe is a series of equations that make up one really big equation. Everything that happens is part of inumerable cause and effect relationships. By definition, the equations must always balance. The equations are continiously changing.

    Internal balance not something we create, but something we allow. It is our natural state. We, however, live in a society and grow up in families and attend schools that teach us what we are *supposed* to be (good looking, rich, whatever). This creates internal conflict. The only way to realize peace is to let go of all of the supposed-to-be's. Read gilligan's post again... it's a great example of what I mean about each of us creating our own imbalances. Self-acceptance is the key to wellness and balance.

    Also, our relationship to our environment is a direct reflection of our relationship to ourselves. People with control issues with others are really suffering a control issue with themselves. People who hate others actually hate themselves. And the people in our lives treat us the way we believe we truly deserve to be treated.
    Point being that it's not your interst in self-actualization that is keeping it from you exactly... it's that you're trying to create balance instead of just allowing it.

    Objectivity, to me, is an important part of allowing balance. If you are *trying* to be self-actualized you cannot see yourself in an objective manner. When I use my intuition I consider myself an eternal observer... the moment I feel I know something, I lose my postition as an objective observer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    actually, IMO...

    The universe is a series of equations that make up one really big equation. Everything that happens is part of inumerable cause and effect relationships. By definition, the equations must always balance. The equations are continiously changing.

    Internal balance not something we create, but something we allow. It is our natural state. We, however, live in a society and grow up in families and attend schools that teach us what we are *supposed* to be (good looking, rich, whatever). This creates internal conflict. The only way to realize peace is to let go of all of the supposed-to-be's. Read gilligan's post again... it's a great example of what I mean about each of us creating our own imbalances. Self-acceptance is the key to wellness and balance.

    Also, our relationship to our environment is a direct reflection of our relationship to ourselves. People with control issues with others are really suffering a control issue with themselves. People who hate others actually hate themselves. And the people in our lives treat us the way we believe we truly deserve to be treated.
    Point being that it's not your interst in self-actualization that is keeping it from you exactly... it's that you're trying to create balance instead of just allowing it.

    Objectivity, to me, is an important part of allowing balance. If you are *trying* to be self-actualized you cannot see yourself in an objective manner. When I use my intuition I consider myself an eternal observer... the moment I feel I know something, I lose my postition as an objective observer.
    Huh? lol

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    hmmmmm define humility...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    actually, IMO...

    The universe is a series of equations that make up one really big equation. Everything that happens is part of inumerable cause and effect relationships. By definition, the equations must always balance. The equations are continiously changing.

    Internal balance not something we create, but something we allow. It is our natural state. We, however, live in a society and grow up in families and attend schools that teach us what we are *supposed* to be (good looking, rich, whatever). This creates internal conflict. The only way to realize peace is to let go of all of the supposed-to-be's. Read gilligan's post again... it's a great example of what I mean about each of us creating our own imbalances. Self-acceptance is the key to wellness and balance.

    Also, our relationship to our environment is a direct reflection of our relationship to ourselves. People with control issues with others are really suffering a control issue with themselves. People who hate others actually hate themselves. And the people in our lives treat us the way we believe we truly deserve to be treated.
    Point being that it's not your interst in self-actualization that is keeping it from you exactly... it's that you're trying to create balance instead of just allowing it.

    Objectivity, to me, is an important part of allowing balance. If you are *trying* to be self-actualized you cannot see yourself in an objective manner. When I use my intuition I consider myself an eternal observer... the moment I feel I know something, I lose my postition as an objective observer.
    Thank you for explaining.

    I agree with you that, trying to be something that you are not is what gets us into trouble. That's what our POLr does no? Doesn't it try to show off, BE something? Functions that try to show off/defend themselves in the world, move us farther away from actualizing. I think that if our POLr and whatever other functions make someone "want to be something they are not," are on check, we create within ourselves self-actualization. That's what I meant by a POLr free world.

    Self-actualizing=being in the balance that you speak of.

    Why can't everyone do this???? Why can't there be a world that does not INSIST that other people BE something. Why can't there be a world that allows people to flourish? Why do you think there must always be struggle? Struggle is fine in terms of sweat and toil. But to struggle because the world is telling you to be something? We can beat that...as a society...I think we can beat that.

    Your equation description sounded like the architect in the Matrix! I feel like Neo.

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    That is what a world without humans would be like. Animals don't try to be something they're not. The fact that we have complex desires and are capable of improving ourselves is what causes us to struggle against ourselves. Like I said, everything comes at a price. You cannot expect that people can be given choices and no one will make the wrong choice. It... wouldn't really be a choice then would it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    That is what a world without humans would be like. Animals don't try to be something they're not.
    I agree that animals don't try to be something. I think that the world's balance (seen in nature) can teach us something....that humanity is offfff course.

    The fact that we have complex desires and are capable of improving ourselves is what causes us to struggle against ourselves.
    No, you said that what causes us to struggle is other people (society) telling us what to BE. You said our natural state is balance. Are you changing your position? Are you saying we struggle because we are more complex? We struggle not only because society tells us to be but because we inherently are a complex species?

    If society wasn't telling us how to be...If everytime I opened my door and the world was welcoming me with open arms....I can't imagine myself complicating my own head. Honestly, it's like you said before. Our natural state is balance.

    Like I said, everything comes at a price. You cannot expect that people can be given choices and no one will make the wrong choice. It... wouldn't really be a choice then would it?
    People would make the right choices if they lived in a society that encouraged their talents/skills and didn't demand them to be something. If and when they would experience the WRONG choice (in the early years), they would immediately recognize the disconnect. It would be a.....OH SHIT! moment. There would be shame....fear....guilt...etc. etc. BUT, As long as they are coaxed back to a state of balance by other actualized folks....alll should flow nicely. The shame, fear, guilt, experienced wouldn't be something pleasant. They would seek to return to their pleasant state of balance.

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    I mean that it's the complexity of humanity that not only causes us to have expectations for others but also to wish to live up to people's expections of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I mean that it's the complexity of humanity that not only causes us to have expectations for others but also to wish to live up to people's expections of us.
    Can we beat it? Do you think we can break those barriers? Experience our natural state of wholeness not only within ourselves but in terms of a human experience? I don't necessarily mean it to happen NOW this instant (although, I can see that as well).... but ever....do you believe people as a whole can let go of all those barriers and destroy expectations?

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    absolutely not... individuals can, but those individuals will always be a minority
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