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Thread: Ayn Rand's type (old discussion)

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Jesus christ, I can't wait until you run into someone who actually has the patience to explain to you how the human brain works.
    Doesn't really matter. I can rely on my cause-effect logic and assume thats how all the processes of the human brain work.

    Unless you can prove different that is. Go ahead.

    You and this anarchism bullshit. Grow the fuck up, you're not going to change the world. Know why? It works just fine the way it is, and as long as people see that, you will never be able to convince anyone to change the way they're living.
    LMAO.

    I'm sorry life didn't work out for you Gilly, but I have more patience/optimism.
    The end is nigh

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Doesn't really matter. I can rely on my cause-effect logic and assume thats how all the processes of the human brain work.

    Unless you can prove different that is. Go ahead.
    Free will is an illusion. It is actually a set of chemical reactions that you perceive as allowing you to make a choice; subjectively, on a conscious level, yes, you are "choosing," but on a concrete level, that is really just the chemicals in your brain shifting, factors being weighed out subjectively via past experience, common sense, instincts, etc.

    You are nothing but chemicals. Fucking accept it you intellectual peasant.



    LMAO.

    I'm sorry life didn't work out for you Gilly, but I have more patience/optimism.
    Life didn't work out for me? Do I sound 60?

    Have fun idolizing ideologically motivated academics and never accomplishing anything in your life because you set your sights on something unnecessary and, hence, impossible.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by heath View Post
    i can't read her. i think she is an awful writing with terrible style. also, as a practical scientist, i get extremely bored with philosophers. i really have no use for philosophy.
    What science do your practise/study?

    I agree with your statement, except I am actually a philosophy. It ain't cool, yo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I disagree with her views on compassion and altruism to some extent, however. I was wondering if she really understood what compassion really is or how a lot of other people really are (that is if she was seeing the real world of people as similar to what it is in her books – and I've only read The Fountainhead and skipped here and there through Atlas Shrugged, which probably amounted to reading about half of it at least). I guess what I mean is that compassion is a feeling, it comes as automatically as any other feeling does… you can't stop yourself from feeling what you feel. It is not pity (and I think pity is what 'one might feel when they see a squashed caterpillar' in the context she seemed to be mentioning, not compassion). It is for instance possible to feel compassion even for oneself. It doesn't have to be some sort of uplifting feeling that one indulges in to make themselves feel better, and it doesn't have to be the pity of always looking down at others trying to prop oneself up above them as greater in some sort of Ellsworth Toohey sense. It's actually possible to feel just it for no reason at all, other than that is what you feel at the time.
    Agreed. I don't think she considers the human condition well enough.

    I guess I felt like she was turning compassion into some image that "second-handers" don just as she was turning love into want. Although I'm not sure if I agree with her about love. I was thinking about the scenario of being in a bus that's falling into a river and a parent with their last breath pushing their child out one of the open windows, unconcerned about what happens to them and only concerned with saving the life of their child. It is in a way an act of love and of self-sacrifice… but I can also interpret it as doing it because the parent *wants* their child to live, and they want it so much that they will do anything, even if it means losing their life. This does not mean that the parent does not want to live, or even that they want their child to live more. It just means in that moment their only consideration and desire was to protect and save their child. My mind says that it is because of love. It says this automatically. Maybe in this scenario "love" and "want" intersect and become one, as though they are one emotion.

    I don't know if I have any issues with her presentation of the glories of Capitalism. I think I see what she means and it's fine for the most part. I probably don't agree with the idea of "let the weak perish," which I don't think she ever said that… but it is in its own way implied by what her ideal systems would do. I tend to see it more as there are basic survival needs on this planet, and if there are large segments of people who can't meet them then it suggests something is wrong with society and the movement of resources throughout it… I see it as a human right essentially to not have to be born in a dump in a third world country and die of a treatable illness at the age of six. No matter what arguments are made about "weak people" it cannot be denied that there are demographic patterns… that in areas of a lot of these "weak people" there are in fact obvious reasons in society itself as to why they are so. An attitude/argument of "they can't hack it, let them die" or "they're doing it to themselves, you reap what you sow," etc. seems far too simplistic to me. And the reason why I even care about this is because I didn't have any choice into what circumstances I was born… if I was born in an inner-city dump in Brazil, it doesn't matter how "strong" I am (whatever that means) because the odds of me reaching any significant percent of my full potential are dramatically not in my favor. Arguments like "people are weak" or "people don't work hard enough" I think often fail to grasp the complexity of individual circumstances and fail to take into consideration what it is like to be that person and to live in those circumstances. The function of our society rests upon a certain amount of poverty (otherwise it wouldn't work the way it does) meaning it ends up being a reality that no matter how hard every individual tries to overcome their circumstances there is always going to be about the same amount of poverty – unless society changes its structure to one that more fully recognizes the worth of people and that it is not acceptable for millions of children to die every year from treatable illnesses. (I do think we're moving in the right direction though… at least most societies aren't enslaving people… well, relative to how much slavery there used to be.) In any case, I don't see these considerations as contradicting Capitalism, necessarily. I think that Capitalism can work and that there are a lot of ways that something like Socialism doesn't work. Basically, I see the actual system of government/economy as secondary to some extent (I think both can work, depending). Anyway, that's not to say I disagree with what the "super people" characters in Atlas Shrugged decided to do... Society wasn't working so they left it and created their own society that would work, and that's probably a good move given how shitty the greater society was (there's no point in staying to go down with the sinking ship).
    Very good point.

    I'm actually thinking that LSI does work better than my previous idea of ESI... that idea was based on thinking that the form of ethics Rand seemed to be cutting down was Fe, which I think (though don't yet fully see) was somehow mixing up things about Fe vs. Fi in my mind.
    I noticed that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Normalizing subtype.
    Meaning?

    1. Freewill advocate, yet explicitly accepts that all effects have causes, which contradicts freewill. And yes it fucking does.
    How?

    2. She is against anarchism, yet her ideal society amounts to anarchism (You can choose not to use government services or fund the government, which would allow for competing services ->free market anarchism).
    I was under the impression she was an anarchist. How is she not?

    3. She strongly expresses belief in an objective morality, yet also accepts value as subjective, which contradicts an objective value system. Not only that, but an inherent, discoverable, objective morality is logically false. You cannot prove an "ought" without contextualizing it with an "If-then". Also she is an ethical egoist, which is a stupid once you prove psychological egoism and the subjectivity of morality.
    Maybe her "objective morality" is just her subjective morality argued fervently enough to make you agree with her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Jesus christ, I can't wait until you run into someone who actually has the patience to explain to you how the human brain works.

    You and this anarchism bullshit. Grow the fuck up, you're not going to change the world. Know why? It works just fine the way it is, and as long as people see that, you will never be able to convince anyone to change the way they're living.
    lol +1

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Free will is an illusion. It is actually a set of chemical reactions that you perceive as allowing you to make a choice; subjectively, on a conscious level, yes, you are "choosing," but on a concrete level, that is really just the chemicals in your brain shifting, factors being weighed out subjectively via past experience, common sense, instincts, etc.

    You are nothing but chemicals. Fucking accept it you intellectual peasant.
    Ummm dude that is exactly what I'm saying.

    edit: I can see how you might have misinterpreted me, but I'm actually a strong determinst and I do not believe in freewill. I was pointing out that rand was wrong in accepting freewill. Hence me bringing up cause and effect. i thought you were arguing for freewill intitially!

    Life didn't work out for me? Do I sound 60?

    Have fun idolizing ideologically motivated academics and never accomplishing anything in your life because you set your sights on something unnecessary and, hence, impossible.
    blah blah blah Im a stupid 3, cliche cliche cliche.
    The end is nigh

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pezra View Post
    Meaning?
    its from the DCNH subtype system. Basically its means she's Ti ESTp.

    How?
    See Gilly's insightful post above.

    I was under the impression she was an anarchist. How is she not?
    No she was explicitly not an anarchist or libertarian.

    Objectivism, Libertarianism and Anarchism

    Maybe her "objective morality" is just her subjective morality argued fervently enough to make you agree with her.
    lol
    The end is nigh

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Well I'm also asserting that free will is compatible with determinism, so you're still dumb.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    blah blah blah Im a stupid 3, cliche cliche cliche.
    So you admit that you were trying to take a generalized stab at my presupposed "weakness" of needing to achieve something. Wow, what a man.

    My goals are still in tact; yours don't exist. Move on.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  8. #288
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    So you admit that you were trying to take a generalized stab at my presupposed "weakness" of needing to achieve something. Wow, what a man.

    My goals are still in tact; yours don't exist. Move on.

    No, you just don't understand economics and like to throw around cliches about anarchists.

    goddamnit.

    also back on topic:

    I'd fuck Ayn Rand and every centipede in her vagina.
    The end is nigh

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Normalizing subtype.

    Also her philosophy has a bunch of flaws

    1. Freewill advocate, yet explicitly accepts that all effects have causes, which contradicts freewill. And yes it fucking does.
    Consider the fact that she didn't reference free will as some ultimate metaphysical concept, but instead was more bent on emphasizing the intrinsic value of human willpower as it is directed at tangible ends and employed through rationally-defined methods. So, why wouldn't she accept causality, given that it was directly in line with the process she saw as paramount to human accomplishment (idea–>rational crystallization–>willful implementation–>tangible result)?

    2. She is against anarchism, yet her ideal society amounts to anarchism (You can choose not to use government services or fund the government, which would allow for competing services ->free market anarchism).
    What she is against, are nutty lunatics running around, proclaiming their freedom like they're trying to launch the cock of delusion that's lodged in their throats (not referencing you, just most "anarchists" that she would dislike), under a washed-up pretense. Her ideal society most definitely would not amount to anarchism – because despite the freedom exercised through individual ability reigning successful in an unhindered market, there is a natural structure that emerges from the collective concentration on that form of rationality and competition.

    3. She strongly expresses belief in an objective morality, yet also accepts value as subjective, which contradicts an objective value system. Not only that, but an inherent, discoverable, objective morality is logically false. You cannot prove an "ought" without contextualizing it with an "If-then". Also she is an ethical egoist, which is a stupid once you prove psychological egoism and the subjectivity of morality.
    Sigh. The "objective morality" is based on a rational examination of reality, not some absolutist guide of pious principles for people to adhere to. If you examine the nature of her morality and the way it was intended to be exercised, you will see that it wasn't some objective doctrine she discovered in the external world and proclaimed as real; it amounted to the best possible rational approximation she could make of objective reality. It isn't about proof; it's about making sense, in and of itself. Contrastingly, the "subjective value" she "accepts" is one that is based on innate potential within individuals that is activated through the faculty of the rational mind and realized through the human will. Her "ethical egoism" essentially revolves around this unfailing value on the spirit of humans as individuals, and the belief that they are free to pursue the fulfillment of said thing to the highest degree. How the fuck is that in conflict with subjectivity in morality or psychological egoism at all?

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    Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    its from the DCNH subtype system.
    Which is?

    No she was explicitly not an anarchist or libertarian.

    Objectivism, Libertarianism and Anarchism
    I can't be bothered trawling through pages of intellectual masturbation, so just give me the low-down if you will. From what I understood of Atlas Shrugged, her ideas did not conflict with any variation of anarchocapitalism or libertarianism on a practical level.

    lol
    I'm making a serious point. Ayn Rand is clearly confident in her own ideas. I'm making no assertions about her Enneagram type, but the Eight has a way of essentially saying "I don't know whether it's 'objectively true' or not, but it's the way I work and that's all that matters". Rand could be doing a similar thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I'd fuck Ayn Rand and every centipede in her vagina.
    Ayn Rand, after hearing this comment:



    Pre-shag (minutes before):



    Post-shag (writing about her experiences):



    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I don't like this topic anymore.
    Hahahaha.

    "Got to leave the topic. Got to leave the topic. Got to leave the topic. Definitely have to leave the topic. Got to leave the topic!!!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Consider the fact that she didn't reference free will as some ultimate metaphysical concept, but instead was more bent on emphasizing the intrinsic value of human willpower as it is directed at tangible ends and employed through rationally-defined methods. So, why wouldn't she accept causality, given that it was directly in line with the process she saw as paramount to human accomplishment (idea–>rational crystallization–>willful implementation–>tangible result)?



    What she is against, are nutty lunatics running around, proclaiming their freedom like they're trying to launch the cock of delusion that's lodged in their throats (not referencing you, just most "anarchists" that she would dislike), under a washed-up pretense. Her ideal society most definitely would not amount to anarchism – because despite the freedom exercised through individual ability reigning successful in an unhindered market, there is a natural structure that emerges from the collective concentration on that form of rationality and competition.



    Sigh. The "objective morality" is based on a rational examination of reality, not some absolutist guide of pious principles for people to adhere to. If you examine the nature of her morality and the way it was intended to be exercised, you will see that it wasn't some objective doctrine she discovered in the external world and proclaimed as real; it amounted to the best possible rational approximation she could make of objective reality. It isn't about proof; it's about making sense, in and of itself. Contrastingly, the "subjective value" she "accepts" is one that is based on innate potential within individuals that is activated through the faculty of the rational mind and realized through the human will. Her "ethical egoism" essentially revolves around this unfailing value on the spirit of humans as individuals, and the belief that they are free to pursue the fulfillment of said thing to the highest degree. How the fuck is that in conflict with subjectivity in morality or psychological egoism at all?
    +3

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    ESTp would be my VI guess. It's just a VI guess. Don't quote me on this one.

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    Ayn Rand hates Betas:



    you won't find a more cogent description of a socionical phenomenon in spontaneous speech than this.

    oops, another major the16types fuck-up.

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    ESTp.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Ayn Rand the self-hating Beta.

    welcome to the16types.info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Ayn Rand hates Betas:

    you won't find a more cogent description of a socionical phenomenon in spontaneous speech than this.
    And just what is so typical only to Beta about this?
    4w5 sp/sx

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    i'm not going to cater to your self-gratifying denialist drives by spelling it out.

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    Yeah she's SLE.

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    Lol I thought labcoat waz just joking around with stereotypes.

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    I don't see SLE. She seems so incredibly IJ. I feel constipated just watching her. Okay that was exaggerating. But anyway.

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    Updated typing: Se-SLE sp/sx
    Last edited by silke; 05-02-2017 at 12:47 PM.

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    is there any chance at all that Ayn Rand was an ISFj. even for all the emphasis she placed on Aristotelean logic (Te), her personal addition to the philosophy was to work out it's moral implications. she is stereotypically rigid like an IJ type both in her behavior and her convictions. she most vocally opposed Alphas (Kant, the "old" intellectuals) and Betas (witch doctors + Atillas, collectivism, ******, Stalin). her philosophy seems to match something commonly found among other gammas including those on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    is there any chance at all that Ayn Rand was an ISFj. even for all the emphasis she placed on Aristotelean logic (Te), her personal addition to the philosophy was to work out it's moral implications. she is stereotypically rigid like an IJ type both in her behavior and her convictions. she most vocally opposed Alphas (Kant, the "old" intellectuals) and Betas (witch doctors + Atillas, collectivism, ******, Stalin). her philosophy seems to match something commonly found among other gammas including those on this forum.
    I don't see how disdaining leaders who make decisions that affect millions of people based upon their whims and fancies and using force and coercion to carry those decisions out is specific to Gamma, or how those traits above can be pinned solely on to Beta. Sure, the two characters she described can be stereotypically named Beta NF and Beta ST, but then, what's to say that she isn't disdaining unhealthy members of her own quadra?
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    you'd be surprised. there were a lot of people in her time that apologized for certain parts of those two men's philosophies. there still are. Ayn Rand wasn't among these people. she attacked their worldviews from their core and rejected them categorically.

    what's to say that she isn't disdaining unhealthy members of her own quadra?
    to say everything is possible is a tautology and is not helpful to any discussion. we are faced with the problem of selecting among possibilities the one that is best supported by the available facts.

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    Everything that matters about her screams ILE out loud. From her appearance to her argumentation, reasoning, theoretical concepts, social role - everything I can think of. Less so are only some superficial details, which actually come from her theoretical constructions, not viscerally type-related (this seems to be a common assumption among the users). This is what ILEs actually do as a hobby, build the models of the inner workings - or rather find the principles behind, even if not consistently - of physical reality, society, and anything they have an interest in. Their conclusions are often very varied in themes, I'd dare to say hardly finding two immediately similar, especially coming from different historical contexts. Strong individualist and adamantly opposed to any kind of intellectual or social parasitism, or collective (herd) thinking. Liked to dispute and discuss ideas all the time; dry logical arguments, does not follow any current of thought.

    Maybe one thing that comes to my mind does not fit the big picture: finishing her works, sounds like a pain in the ass for an ILE... It is a bit unconceivable an ILE to spend so much in going through and polishing such a tedious work - especially fiction! - instead of generating ideas. Not that I dug for everything about her, though, what I know so far is sufficient to make a strong opinion.
    ---

    FTR: I can see where she comes from when she rejected part of Kant, he did not acknowledge factual analytic knowledge as valid. Kant lacked analytic a posteriory as a valid from of judgment. He called what we "just is" as "intuition" (more precisely empirical intuition IIRC) - in my understanding closed to what in Socionics is understood by Se, just to have an idea of what I'm talking about. He believes that anything empirical that "just is" is rather unverifiable, being impossible to demonstrate - and in a way he's right, though this way he rejects that the perception of the object and only the object (no addition made by the predicate) is possible, thing that is the pivotal concept of Rand's Objectivism. (the other three forms are qualified by him as "truth") This inconsistency expands over the analytic-synthetic distinction, because on one hand (initially) he acknowledges that synthetic and a posteriori are exclusively experimental, and the remaining two are rational, on the other hand mixing the two he created two anomalies, based on his definitions: the one he acknowledged is both synthetic and necessary (admitted as weird by him, but still valid), but he rejected the other entirely, therefore rejecting the value of the source empirical basic knowledge used for a priori judgments (what Rand is sure of).

    I think this great inconsistency can be summed up in: acknowledging that synthetic valid judgments can be both necessary and contingent, still rejecting this for analytic judgments - suggesting here and there that they are in all circumstances necessary, because he could find no valid case where they defy this rule, like it happened in the case of synthetic a priori judgments (mathematical-like). Ayn Rand rejects this distinction IMO precisely because of this sedimented definition of the analytic attribute, which became a rule of thumb along Kant's work (again, all this mess merely springing from the fact he could not find such example that he could label other than intuition!). Because of this conviction, Kant basically forbade in advance Rand rand to include her existents - "A is A", identity - in his system, except with the condition of being human conventions or subjective insights.

    Rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction is one solution, however not the wise one, IMO, though not necessarily unreasonable. I'm saying that because if analytic judgments are necessarily purely rational, then because of the contradictions between its definition and the one of existents (predicate adds nothing, though still empirical), for an objectivist they will be false, they would have had a different meaning than if they could possibly be empirical as well. The whole distinction fails in this light, actually. The other solution would have been to redefine the understanding of analytic - and in fact a true redefinition is not even necessary based on the Critique alone IMO, because this extended understanding of the analytic was not even supposed to be so, was not in the definition, but it just stuck with Kant based on lacking real applicability of the other way around (contingency); an ad interim becoming status quo. I think Rand chose the former because of a different understanding - or I may say a misunderstanding - of Kant's necessity, or something else that generated both her choice and this understanding of necessity of hers.

    Consequently, I see her rejection of this distinction actually an intimate and extremely accurate understanding for Kant's reasoning, unlike a number of other thinkers. Only a stern rigor and conceptual fitness could make her understand that incompatibility between her existents and the meaning of analytic/synthetic in its final form established by Kant, IMO. One may argue this could rather point towards SeTi than NeTi (she's too sure of the perception of objects alone), I personally differ for different reasons:
    - having that to her the identification actually happens, the object actually *exists*, similarily to the facts, which surprisingly are acknowledged by Kant. This makes it a logical conclusion instead of an irrational conviction which would necessitate Se;
    - for Se types this whole hasle is meaningless - things are what they are, there's no point in justifying them philosophically, at least not to a such extreme extent;
    - having her impulsive personality and unlike Se types, she is convinced that the human understanding is the source of our misery and blames Kant for what she perceives as misguidance of our spirit - why would a Se type whine about how an old fart cursed us through philosophical means, instead of taking fate in her hands by earthly means? Where is her self-reliance? She is fighting against some mere concepts...
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

    The16types.info Scientific Model

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    Whatever traits she may have, it seems like a phenomenon she may have noticed was beneficial for survival, and got carried away by making a whole philosophy to support it. Like an outsider would. Many SLEs might be rational egoists themselves, but that is a story as old as dirt. While she makes it out to be some grand discovery and has to label it. Basically, she talks too much. lol. That may be simplifying it, but I can't put it any other way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So we are all in agreement that Ayn Rand was SLE, excellent.
    I think SLEs would spend more time relating to and commenting on objects themselves, rather than commenting (extensively) about some overarching "objectivist" efficacy behind things. Efficacy to them is more tactical, and secondly, motivated by their own subjective desires. It doesn't detach itself and promote Se as a thing in itself. What they care about is what they achieve through it.

    What she preaches isn't in contradiction to SLEs, but it's just in how she goes about that doesn't seem their style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So we are all in agreement that Ayn Rand was SLE, excellent.
    Aye. Unanimous vote. The motion carries. And now we move on to the next item on the agenda: Carl Jung.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    Fun fact: I was born 80 years to-the-day after the birth of Ayn Rand.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    Fun fact: I was born 80 years to-the-day after the birth of Ayn Rand.
    That's pretty cool.

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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    And Khola is IEE, so that means Ayn Rand must be too. That's a nice shortcut, so I don't actually have to observe Rand at all this way.
    Lol, now that's science!
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Free will is an illusion. It is actually a set of chemical reactions that you perceive as allowing you to make a choice; subjectively, on a conscious level, yes, you are "choosing," but on a concrete level, that is really just the chemicals in your brain shifting, factors being weighed out subjectively via past experience, common sense, instincts, etc.

    You are nothing but chemicals. Fucking accept it you intellectual peasant.
    Currently completing second-year Psychology with distinction average. Currently completing a unit on Cognitive Psychology. Fucking lolled man. Ily Gillyweed
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Obvious INTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    Currently completing second-year Psychology with distinction average. Currently completing a unit on Cognitive Psychology. Fucking lolled man. Ily Gillyweed
    I can breath underwater and rape intellect at the same time
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverthesame View Post
    Obvious INTj.
    Thanks.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    hmmm, I was thinking of her as ESI. I definitely feel like the willpower screams Se. This idea that you have to LIVE your life, DO, BE, get out there! And for some odd reason, I feel like her focus on money points to gamma. Not to stereotype or anything. lol
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Capital markets values of because it's based on work and values

    SLI
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  37. #317
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Everything that matters about her screams ILE out loud. From her appearance to her argumentation, reasoning, theoretical concepts, social role - everything I can think of. Less so are only some superficial details, which actually come from her theoretical constructions, not viscerally type-related (this seems to be a common assumption among the users). This is what ILEs actually do as a hobby, build the models of the inner workings - or rather find the principles behind, even if not consistently - of physical reality, society, and anything they have an interest in. Their conclusions are often very varied in themes, I'd dare to say hardly finding two immediately similar, especially coming from different historical contexts. Strong individualist and adamantly opposed to any kind of intellectual or social parasitism, or collective (herd) thinking. Liked to dispute and discuss ideas all the time; dry logical arguments, does not follow any current of thought.

    Maybe one thing that comes to my mind does not fit the big picture: finishing her works, sounds like a pain in the ass for an ILE... It is a bit unconceivable an ILE to spend so much in going through and polishing such a tedious work - especially fiction! - instead of generating ideas. Not that I dug for everything about her, though, what I know so far is sufficient to make a strong opinion.
    ---

    FTR: I can see where she comes from when she rejected part of Kant, he did not acknowledge factual analytic knowledge as valid. Kant lacked analytic a posteriory as a valid from of judgment. He called what we "just is" as "intuition" (more precisely empirical intuition IIRC) - in my understanding closed to what in Socionics is understood by Se, just to have an idea of what I'm talking about. He believes that anything empirical that "just is" is rather unverifiable, being impossible to demonstrate - and in a way he's right, though this way he rejects that the perception of the object and only the object (no addition made by the predicate) is possible, thing that is the pivotal concept of Rand's Objectivism. (the other three forms are qualified by him as "truth") This inconsistency expands over the analytic-synthetic distinction, because on one hand (initially) he acknowledges that synthetic and a posteriori are exclusively experimental, and the remaining two are rational, on the other hand mixing the two he created two anomalies, based on his definitions: the one he acknowledged is both synthetic and necessary (admitted as weird by him, but still valid), but he rejected the other entirely, therefore rejecting the value of the source empirical basic knowledge used for a priori judgments (what Rand is sure of).

    I think this great inconsistency can be summed up in: acknowledging that synthetic valid judgments can be both necessary and contingent, still rejecting this for analytic judgments - suggesting here and there that they are in all circumstances necessary, because he could find no valid case where they defy this rule, like it happened in the case of synthetic a priori judgments (mathematical-like). Ayn Rand rejects this distinction IMO precisely because of this sedimented definition of the analytic attribute, which became a rule of thumb along Kant's work (again, all this mess merely springing from the fact he could not find such example that he could label other than intuition!). Because of this conviction, Kant basically forbade in advance Rand rand to include her existents - "A is A", identity - in his system, except with the condition of being human conventions or subjective insights.

    Rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction is one solution, however not the wise one, IMO, though not necessarily unreasonable. I'm saying that because if analytic judgments are necessarily purely rational, then because of the contradictions between its definition and the one of existents (predicate adds nothing, though still empirical), for an objectivist they will be false, they would have had a different meaning than if they could possibly be empirical as well. The whole distinction fails in this light, actually. The other solution would have been to redefine the understanding of analytic - and in fact a true redefinition is not even necessary based on the Critique alone IMO, because this extended understanding of the analytic was not even supposed to be so, was not in the definition, but it just stuck with Kant based on lacking real applicability of the other way around (contingency); an ad interim becoming status quo. I think Rand chose the former because of a different understanding - or I may say a misunderstanding - of Kant's necessity, or something else that generated both her choice and this understanding of necessity of hers.

    Consequently, I see her rejection of this distinction actually an intimate and extremely accurate understanding for Kant's reasoning, unlike a number of other thinkers. Only a stern rigor and conceptual fitness could make her understand that incompatibility between her existents and the meaning of analytic/synthetic in its final form established by Kant, IMO. One may argue this could rather point towards SeTi than NeTi (she's too sure of the perception of objects alone), I personally differ for different reasons:
    - having that to her the identification actually happens, the object actually *exists*, similarily to the facts, which surprisingly are acknowledged by Kant. This makes it a logical conclusion instead of an irrational conviction which would necessitate Se;
    - for Se types this whole hasle is meaningless - things are what they are, there's no point in justifying them philosophically, at least not to a such extreme extent;
    - having her impulsive personality and unlike Se types, she is convinced that the human understanding is the source of our misery and blames Kant for what she perceives as misguidance of our spirit - why would a Se type whine about how an old fart cursed us through philosophical means, instead of taking fate in her hands by earthly means? Where is her self-reliance? She is fighting against some mere concepts...
    we have a contrary indicator!

    w00t!

  38. #318
    Moderator xerx's Avatar
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    I really don't really care about VI, but in this interview she keeps moving her eyeballs around like she's "furrowing" through space. () That's Gulenko-code for Ni-creative. Just throwing LIE out there.

  39. #319
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    She doesnt seem LSI to me superficially, but I think it's an option worth exploring.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    000

    It is damn funny after having it digested, especially this:
    3. “Man is an end in himself.”
    Don't know what this is in her language, I mean, I think I know but, I wonder whether she goes further with this or not.

    EDIT: Anyway, it is fruity.
    Last edited by Absurd; 07-01-2011 at 05:36 PM.

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