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Thread: Preference for Te or Fe in political leaders

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Preference for Te or Fe in political leaders

    I was reading an article in The Independent today concerning some people's outlook on Gordon Brown's lifeless style of speech-giving. This made me think that people actually have a preference for Fe in politicians, provided that Brown actually delivers using his Te, unlike many Fe-orientated politicians, such as David Cameron. And think about it; an ILI politician. They're so rare, because a) Fe base politicians succeed far more easily using their natural skills of rhetoric and b) it seems like a strange career for someone who is so into the world of ideas, and so detached from the practicality of governing a state (or maybe I have ILIs wrong in some sense). And no matter how hard Brown tries, there will always be a large amount of people who are more interested in charm and oratory than they are true, effective action. Okay, you've got people who are sceptical about all politicians taking action, but it seems as if the quality of action-orientation is secondary to a silvertongue. For example, do more people care about Brown's lack of oratory skills, or Cameron's failure to deliver what he promises? Maybe it's an even spread. I don't know. But I can bet you that a lot of people want the oratory more, and that those people have a clear preference for Fe over Te.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  2. #2
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    This is a current fashion, certainly in British politics, but there has been plently of current, past and fairly recent leaders who have motivated and roused their supporters using what people would probably described as Se. Certainly theres been plently ESTp, ESFp and ISTj leaders.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This is a current fashion, certainly in British politics, but there has been plently of current, past and fairly recent leaders who have motivated and roused their supporters using what people would probably described as Se. Certainly theres been plently ESTp, ESFp and ISTj leaders.
    Well, I dunno about John Major, but Churchill certainly was an SLE. I dunno if you might've had Thatcher in mind, but Expat reckons LIE for her, I think. He originally thought EIE, but then saw Elizabeth or something, who was LIE. I dunno exactly. I'll let him explain.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Well, I dunno about John Major, but Churchill certainly was an SLE. I dunno if you might've had Thatcher in mind, but Expat reckons LIE for her, I think. He originally thought EIE, but then saw Elizabeth or something, who was LIE. I dunno exactly. I'll let him explain.
    Cool.

    In terms of recent British politics, I thought of the following off the top of my head;

    1. Thatcher
    2. Kinnock
    3. Sheridan

    (I would have thought Thatcher was LSI personally.)

    The other 2: I was thinking of Kinnock, and some of the speeches in particular he made (I could try draw some out of you tube if your curious) and currently, Tommy Sheridon is a possibility (definitely some sort of T type, possibly Se also, although i'd need to look at him a bit more to say for definite)
    Last edited by Cyclops; 03-30-2008 at 04:47 PM.

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Preference for Fe or Te depends on the quadra that represents a nation.

    Some alpha countries:

    * Spain.
    * Greece.
    * France.
    * Most Latin America.

    Some beta countries:

    * Great Britain.
    * Japan.
    * Israel.
    * Turkey.
    * Germany.

    Some gamma countries:

    * India.
    * United States.

    Some delta countries:

    * Switzerland.
    * Norway.
    * Vietnam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Well, I dunno about John Major, but Churchill certainly was an SLE.
    John Major's an ILE, I think. And I agree on Churchill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I dunno if you might've had Thatcher in mind, but Expat reckons LIE for her, I think. He originally thought EIE, but then saw Elizabeth or something, who was LIE. I dunno exactly. I'll let him explain.
    That sentence makes no sense Which "Elizabeth or something" was LIE?!

    Also, I never even considered - as far as I recall - EIE for Thatcher. I typed her as LIE, then thought LSI made more sense, and recently I've been thinking of ESI.

    Not sure about Neil Kinnock. Off the cuff I'd guess LII, but it's a guesstimate. I'm much more persuaded of Tony Benn as LII. And Prince Charles, too, as LII by the way.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That sentence makes no sense Which "Elizabeth or something" was LIE?!
    I might've been imagining it, but I thought you said you saw the film Elizabeth or Elizabeth: The Golden Age and thought that Elizabether - as in the lead character - was an LIE based on the film, if not in real life.

    Also, I never even considered - as far as I recall - EIE for Thatcher. I typed her as LIE, then thought LSI made more sense, and recently I've been thinking of ESI.
    I'm interested to know why you think ESI is a possibility.

    On LIEs and LSIs, you thought about Sarkozy's being an LIE after thinking he was an LSI, didn't you?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Wow. I guess I definitely am Beta, because I love all those countries the most really. I never fit in with the US and I never will.

    Nothing better than a Japanese role-playing game. I'm a total Final Fantasy fanboy, I admit.

    America don't know how to do art - and most of our TV/media outlets suck balls. Fuck the drawn-out 'I gotta be a bad ass and make lots of money and make 3-year-old girls cry to make my cock rock hard every night.' Fuck it in the throat. Fuck the cheapening of real, subtle moments by having to give everything some sort of weird 'moral purpose.'

    But really, fuck people that also complain about America's freedom and our dorky customs like telling people what to do on a bus 'cause we're too good-natured to kick them in the ass. Only WE'RE allowed to do that you ungrateful aliens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I might've been imagining it, but I thought you said you saw the film Elizabeth or Elizabeth: The Golden Age and thought that Elizabether - as in the lead character - was an LIE based on the film, if not in real life.
    I may have said that in the form of musings. I don't think that the character in those movies is a good one for typing, but I think EIE>LIE there.

    I previously thought EIE for the historical Elizabeth I, but lately I've been thinking of LIE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'm interested to know why you think ESI is a possibility.
    Essentially, as discojoe also noted in the thread we discussed her, I see in her the solidity of XSI in "I know I'm right and hell with you if you disagree". Based on that, also in other things - such as her relationship with Reagan, who I'm convinced was EIE - I thought LSI made the most sense, also from a broad historical perspective - the two Betas at the front of a revolution in ideas (even if the agenda itself was Gamma, not Beta).

    However, when looking at her natural way of debating and arguing, as the PMQ clip, she seems to go for Te and contempt for Fe, and not using much Ti that I could see.

    Also, in a long interview I read with her, when asked to comment on her husband Denis, the way she described that she most appreciated in him strongly suggested Ni and Te in super-id.

    So what I see is someone who has Gamma values, but seems Se IJ in many ways. So I'm thinking she may be ESI, just like Christopher Hitchens is ESI imo. But I'm not decided in her case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    On LIEs and LSIs, you thought about Sarkozy's being an LIE after thinking he was an LSI, didn't you?
    I considered LSI without looking at him in detail. The more I study him, the more I'm convinced he's LIE. In the debates with Segolene Royal, to me it was clear that she was the LSI, not him.

    By the way, his recent speech in Windsor (a not so good translation from the French, but anyway):

    Ma’am,
    Your Majesty’s extremely warm words of welcome go straight to my heart. I thank You Ma’am, as I thank You for Your invitation to pay a State visit to the United Kingdom, and especially here, to Your home, this magnificent Windsor Castle. For us all, it’s like a dream to stay at Windsor Castle. We shall be able to say that we were there. My delegation, my wife and I would like to express our sincere gratitude to Your Majesty for all the kind consideration being shown to us on our stay.
    I see in this, Ma’am, the demonstration of the unrivalled friendship which, for so many centuries, has united our peoples. A fraternal friendship, Ma’am, that of two brothers who have grown up together, admittedly sometimes, perhaps even often, arguing and scrapping, but always showing regard and respect for each other. And when Yorkshiremen and Lancastrians, and the Scots, Welsh and Irish managed to unite, it was usually to fight us, and to our cost! We did a lot for Britain’s unity.
    Thus over the centuries were forged the strongest ties, at times perhaps tinged with suspicion, but always marked by a great deal of affection and – I want to say this to our British friends, again on behalf of the French – of admiration for the way you love your country and defend your homeland. And it’s certainly our fraternal rivalry that has nurtured the rise of our two peoples, ensured their international influence and shaped the world. For glory, for power or just for adventure. There have always been French and British to feel passionately about the planet’s fate. And for centuries it was decided by our two armies in every corner of the world.
    The primary goal of the 1904 Entente Cordiale, inspired by Your great grandfather Edward VII, was to reconcile our differences and share out our areas of influence. But throughout the twentieth century it was no longer the Entente Cordiale, it was the brotherhood of arms. The Entente Cordiale was the past. Already in the twentieth century, we were brothers in arms. Faced with the dangers, what brought us closer was the fierce determination to defend together what we had become: two great democracies, two lands of freedom, two lands of justice and two lands of solidarity. And it is no coincidence, Ma’am, that opposite the Elysée Palace, between the statues of Clemenceau and de Gaulle, stands the statue of Churchill, which you yourself, Ma’am, unveiled. The French will never, ever, forget what they owe their British brothers in arms. As I said this afternoon before Parliament, I want to say before You, Ma’am, You who enjoy Your people’s respect and affection, rest assured, Ma’am, that the people of France love the British people. And rest assured, Ma’am, that the people of France feel great respect for You. The French know what You have done for Your country. The French know Your courage and admire the way You lead Your life, Ma’am.
    Our differences still exist, of course. Churchill interpreted them in his own extremely personal way when he said, and I quote roughly from memory: “the Almighty, in his infinite wisdom, did not see fit to create Frenchmen in the image of Englishmen". Had he not been a great Briton, I would not have been so bold as to quote him. But You Yourself in 2004, Ma’am, said, I believe, “Vive la différence"! which struck a great chord with the French people. But if we want them to, Prime Minister, these differences allow us to complement each other.
    So this, Ma’am is the message I have come to bring the British people. Without one another, our two countries can no longer aspire to impact decisively on the world’s destiny. Together, they can recover the influence they held for so long. And in the first place in Europe, I say this because it’s what I think: Europe needs the United Kingdom, and perhaps the United Kingdom like France feels the need for Europe.
    Moreover, together we are going to transform the international institutions.
    ***
    So Ma’am, nearly two centuries after our troops last fought each other, after over a century of an “Entente Cordiale” and a true alliance, sealed in blood, for the defence of our freedoms and our ideals, it seems to me that, respecting our differences, the time has come for a new Franco-British brotherhood to build our common future.
    Of course politicians' speeches are lots of bullshit, and they are often written by others. But they choose different kinds of bullshit for their important speeches, so even if he did not write it himself, that's presumably what he wanted to say. And that speech is pure Gamma: Te, Ni, Fi, Se.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  10. #10
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    What we are gathering here is that Thatcher can be all the types, when clearly she is ISTj.

    This sort of jack of all the trades thinking is for theoretical purposes only. It's a wonder that Ashura could create and type anyone in socionics at this rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    What we are gathering here is that Thatcher can be all the types, when clearly she is ISTj.

    This sort of jack of all the trades thinking is for theoretical purposes only. It's a wonder that Ashura could create and type anyone in socionics at this rate.
    Yes -- it's so nice to just know that you know the one possible correct answer, isn't it? Why waste time discussing further what you just know is the right answer?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat, I know you won't want to claim complete certainity over your typings, but I trust your typings far more than my own . You always type historical figures and politicians with great knowledgeability (is that a word?), which I find awe-inspiring. You are certainly one of the greatest people to have ever lived, and if I haven't suitably embarrased you yet, then really that just emphasises my mundane mediocrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Expat, I know you won't want to claim complete certainity over your typings, but I trust your typings far more than my own . You always type historical figures and politicians with great knowledgeability (is that a word?), which I find awe-inspiring. You are certainly one of the greatest people to have ever lived, and if I haven't suitably embarrased you yet, then really that just emphasises my mundane mediocrity.
    That picture in my avatar isn't mine, Subterranean.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That picture in my avatar isn't mine, Subterranean.
    Is she one of the greatest people to have ever lived? I think you said who she was before, but I've forgotten. Was it some Ukrainian politician?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That picture in my avatar isn't mine, Subterranean.
    rofl

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Expat, I know you won't want to claim complete certainity over your typings, but I trust your typings far more than my own . You always type historical figures and politicians with great knowledgeability (is that a word?), which I find awe-inspiring. You are certainly one of the greatest people to have ever lived, and if I haven't suitably embarrased you yet, then really that just emphasises my mundane mediocrity.
    Ahhh, the beauty of the LIE.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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