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Thread: Fi Creative

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    Default Fi Creative

    Fi is about inner emotion, harmony, and the like, correct? My theory is this: given that Fi is about how we and others feel, then attacking someone in a way that is aimed at hurting their feelings is another use of it, one applied when we are sufficiently provoked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Fi is about inner emotion, harmony, and the like, correct? My theory is this: given that Fi is about how we and others feel, then attacking someone in a way that is aimed at hurting their feelings is another use of it, one applied when we are sufficiently provoked.
    I see that as still Fe.

    Starting from the same action, as in saying: "I hate you and I wish you were dead".

    From a Fe point of view: I am saying this in order to provoke an emotional response in you, that is, to hurt you.

    From a Fi point of view: I am saying this because this is how I see our relationship now and I want this established.

    The difference is:

    From the Fe point of view, the successful reaction is you saying, "oh no! Don't say that, how can you hate me?"
    The non-successful reaction is, "who cares if you hate me? Heh".

    From the Fi point of view, the successful reaction is you saying, "okay I got it, I understand you hate me".
    The non-successful reaction is, "nah you don't mean it. You don't hate me. I'll give you time until tomorrow to chill out".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I see that as still Fe.

    Starting from the same action, as in saying: "I hate you and I wish you were dead".

    From a Fe point of view: I am saying this in order to provoke an emotional response in you, that is, to hurt you.

    From a Fi point of view: I am saying this because this is how I see our relationship now and I want this established.

    The difference is:

    From the Fe point of view, the successful reaction is you saying, "oh no! Don't say that, how can you hate me?"
    The non-successful reaction is, "who cares if you hate me? Heh".

    From the Fi point of view, the successful reaction is you saying, "okay I got it, I understand you hate me".
    The non-successful reaction is, "nah you don't mean it. You don't hate me. I'll give you time until tomorrow to chill out".
    Would that make it Fe demonstrative, then, as that's what comes out when we're under stress?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Would that make it Fe demonstrative, then, as that's what comes out when we're under stress?
    I'm not following you. Could you please elaborate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I'm not following you. Could you please elaborate?
    My understanding (at least from one source) is that our demonstrative is stress-related, at least to some degree. Which would make sense as to why someone like me would be more interested in keeping harmony, at least until we're p'd off, at which point we go for the jugular, trying to hurt feelings instead of preserve them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    From a Fe point of view: I am saying this in order to provoke an emotional response in you, that is, to hurt you.

    From a Fi point of view: I am saying this because this is how I see our relationship now and I want this established.
    Surely you plan to correct such an obvious bias...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Surely you plan to correct such an obvious bias...
    I'm not conscious Fe, so I can't speak for it, but I completely agree with the Fi example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Surely you plan to correct such an obvious bias...
    I see it as simplistic, but not biased.

    Fe is dynamic, so Fe-related actions refer to dynamic internal (ie emotional) states.

    Fi is static and Fi changes are more like quantum leaps. So Fi-related actions refert to re-establishing a static state.

    My particular example of using Fe to hurt someone was negative because that's how the question was put, that is, to "attack" someone.

    Where do you see an "obvious bias"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    My understanding (at least from one source) is that our demonstrative is stress-related, at least to some degree. Which would make sense as to why someone like me would be more interested in keeping harmony, at least until we're p'd off, at which point we go for the jugular, trying to hurt feelings instead of preserve them.
    If I get angry at someone and under stress, I have a strong sense of how my actions will affect the other person should I choose a certain path. For instance, say I'm with a group of people that I'm generally reserved around, I know that if I choose to slam my desk or throw some furniture around that the other people in the room will look in my direction and be somewhat bewlidered and shocked. And then subsequent questions will be asked "Josh! Are you all right? What's going on?" I feel fairly confident about how my actions will affect others around me. Using it, on the other hand, is a different story.

    I can see in my mind different paths of action that I can take when I'm angry, and I purposely don't choose actions that I think will elicit too strong of a response from others. I feel like I have too much power to really hurt someone if I really wanted to (though I might be overestimating that), but I opt to hold it back.

    I think that's more demonstrative
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    If I get angry at someone and under stress, I have a strong sense of how my actions will affect the other person should I choose a certain path. For instance, say I'm with a group of people that I'm generally reserved around, I know that if I choose to slam my desk or throw some furniture around that the other people in the room will look in my direction and be somewhat bewlidered and shocked. And then subsequent questions will be asked "Josh! Are you all right? What's going on?" I feel fairly confident about how my actions will affect others around me. Using it, on the other hand, is a different story.

    I can see in my mind different paths of action that I can take when I'm angry, and I purposely don't choose actions that I think will elicit too strong of a response from others. I feel like I have too much power to really hurt someone if I really wanted to (though I might be overestimating that), but I opt to hold it back.

    I think that's more demonstrative
    *nods* When I gave that example, I wasn't talking about just being angry; I was mainly talking about exploding (usually after holding back for too long and finally just losing it, or finally allowing onself to express true feelings since it no longer matters anyway).
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    As far as goes, I'm pretty much in line with what Expat said. I'd add that maybe a bit more fundamental to it is evaluating my surroundings and doing an internal assessment to see if the atmosphere "fits" or resonates with me and how I'm feeling at that moment.
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    Expat, are you trying to say Fi types can't be emotionally manipulative? That they don't have the propensity to act as such?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Expat, are you trying to say Fi types can't be emotionally manipulative? That they don't have the propensity to act as such?
    that's sort of a joke. i think all ethical types have the potential to be manipulative and to "hurt" you, be verbally abusive or whatever, if they wish. i think how tereg explained it makes a lot of sense coming from a Fi creative, shows the differences pretty well. maybe it's slightly different with SeFi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Expat, are you trying to say Fi types can't be emotionally manipulative? That they don't have the propensity to act as such?
    We have the ability. I, for one, don't want to take the time/effort or deal witht the repercussions afterward. Still, in a way, I do it in minor ways - involving what I say, when I say it. More a persuasion.
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    Also I should point out that if I deem an action will elicit "just enough" of a response that's milder, then I will take a somewhat frustrated path and get the response I thought I was going to get. So, even though I eliminate actions that would elicit too strong of a response, that does not mean I hold back all reactive responses in some situations.

    Like, slamming my desk suddenly, or throwing something on the ground when there's people around. I will do that at times, though I don't feel great about doing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PM
    Just wanted to say that when an ExFp has been pushed past a certain point...their individual limit...to the point where they feel a need to attack the other person (usually in self-preservation), then they will often temporarily take on the negative aspects of Xi+Fe.

    This can include saying something to deliberately hurt the other person.
    It can include expressing one's true feelings about the person.
    It can also include making a prediction of how the person's life will go if they continue on the path they are on. (also a prediction on the relationship itself)

    Usually at this point, there's no thought of maintaining the relationship. It's almost pure raw reactiveness (which usually the ExFp sidesteps from in order to preserve the relationship).

    As a side note, when IxFp are under stress, when they've hit THEIR limit, they'll often temporarily take on negative aspects of Xe+Fi. (NiFe<->NeFi; SiFe<->SeFi) Usually this takes on the form of walking away from the relationship. Could be for an extended amount of time...or forever. (the scary thing, for me, is when an ExFp reaches the point of walking away from the relationship forever...talk about double jeopardy)
    Got this from someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Expat, are you trying to say Fi types can't be emotionally manipulative? That they don't have the propensity to act as such?
    Where have I said that Fi types never use Fe?

    Why is it that I say "functions" and you read "types"?

    Why is it that I write, very clearly, "Fe" and "Fi" and you read "Fe types" and "Fi types"?

    If I say that to evaluate the distance between yourself and a ball is Se, are you going to ask me "are you trying to say that Si types never evaluate the distance between themselves and a ball"?

    Is that it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Got this from someone.
    Ahh, that I would classify as longer-term reactions if things for me boil up to a point.

    And I have cut off groups of people for extended periods of time, sometimes with no warning. But never in a permanent fashion.

    But yeah, I definitely can relate to that PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Expat, are you trying to say Fi types can't be emotionally manipulative? That they don't have the propensity to act as such?
    Haha, yeah I was trying to think what an evil delta NF would be like. I agree that the method of actual attack would ultimately be Fe, but I think you can have Fi motives towards attacking a person.

    One example perhaps:
    -You have made me feel like my insides have been torn out.
    -I want you to feel that same thing. Maybe then you won't do it anymore (generally I think this has the opposite effect, but this is an example)!
    - Having known you a while, I know that you're paranoid about your manliness (or whatever).
    - This is followed by a tactical offensive of subtle barbs at your manhood on through some declarative, emotive storytelling about some incident that makes you look like a prissy, little girl.
    - RELATIONSHIP TERMINATED.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Haha, yeah I was trying to think what an evil delta NF would be like. I agree that the method of actual attack would ultimately be Fe, but I think you can have Fi motives towards attacking a person.

    One example perhaps:
    -You have made me feel like my insides have been torn out.
    -I want you to feel that same thing. Maybe then you won't do it anymore (generally I think this has the opposite effect, but this is an example)!
    - Having known you a while, I know that you're paranoid about your manliness (or whatever).
    - This is followed by a tactical offensive of subtle barbs at your manhood on through some declarative, emotive storytelling about some incident that makes you look like a prissy, little girl.
    - RELATIONSHIP TERMINATED.
    I think I've deleted all my "Mad NeFi" e-mails, or I'd have one for you to read. *will check on Monday* Still, it's fun to watch but a biatch to experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Haha, yeah I was trying to think what an evil delta NF would be like. I agree that the method of actual attack would ultimately be Fe, but I think you can have Fi motives towards attacking a person.

    One example perhaps:
    -You have made me feel like my insides have been torn out.
    -I want you to feel that same thing. Maybe then you won't do it anymore (generally I think this has the opposite effect, but this is an example)!
    - Having known you a while, I know that you're paranoid about your manliness (or whatever).
    - This is followed by a tactical offensive of subtle barbs at your manhood on through some declarative, emotive storytelling about some incident that makes you look like a prissy, little girl.
    - RELATIONSHIP TERMINATED.
    I think that's a very good example.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Where have I said that Fi types never use Fe?

    Why is it that I say "functions" and you read "types"?

    Why is it that I write, very clearly, "Fe" and "Fi" and you read "Fe types" and "Fi types"?

    If I say that to evaluate the distance between yourself and a ball is Se, are you going to ask me "are you trying to say that Si types never evaluate the distance between themselves and a ball"?
    Haha!
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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Haha!
    i giggled at this, too. (;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Fi is about inner emotion, harmony, and the like, correct? My theory is this: given that Fi is about how we and others feel, then attacking someone in a way that is aimed at hurting their feelings is another use of it, one applied when we are sufficiently provoked.
    I think your right about Fi.

    In terms of descriptions, shorthand I would say Fe is concerned more so with external emotional cues, such as how frequently does someone smile, glare etc..lots of emotional cues of facial expressions is Fe.

    Fi is more internal as to morals, subjective judgements of behaviours and the like, being needy or not.

    So I guess Fe aimed at hurting someones feelings would look to create unhappy expressions and body language to see it achieving its goal. Fi would look to make a person question the morals and values and their self worth along those lines, internally.

    Well, thats my 2cents on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Haha, yeah I was trying to think what an evil delta NF would be like. I agree that the method of actual attack would ultimately be Fe, but I think you can have Fi motives towards attacking a person.

    One example perhaps:
    -You have made me feel like my insides have been torn out.
    -I want you to feel that same thing. Maybe then you won't do it anymore (generally I think this has the opposite effect, but this is an example)!
    - Having known you a while, I know that you're paranoid about your manliness (or whatever).
    - This is followed by a tactical offensive of subtle barbs at your manhood on through some declarative, emotive storytelling about some incident that makes you look like a prissy, little girl.
    - RELATIONSHIP TERMINATED.
    You know what this reminds me of (though I haven't thought about her type at all)

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=5TWBQ1H0wnY
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    I know I'm not creative Fi, but here are some of my thoughts anyway, in case they are useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I can see in my mind different paths of action that I can take when I'm angry, and I purposely don't choose actions that I think will elicit too strong of a response from others. I feel like I have too much power to really hurt someone if I really wanted to (though I might be overestimating that), but I opt to hold it back.
    I can identify with that. A lot of times I can see into people and know their insecurities but choose not to poke them, deciding it's not worth it, even if I am upset at them. Some ground in the human heart is just too sacred.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Haha, yeah I was trying to think what an evil delta NF would be like. I agree that the method of actual attack would ultimately be Fe, but I think you can have Fi motives towards attacking a person.

    One example perhaps:
    -You have made me feel like my insides have been torn out.
    -I want you to feel that same thing. Maybe then you won't do it anymore (generally I think this has the opposite effect, but this is an example)!
    - Having known you a while, I know that you're paranoid about your manliness (or whatever).
    - This is followed by a tactical offensive of subtle barbs at your manhood on through some declarative, emotive storytelling about some incident that makes you look like a prissy, little girl.
    - RELATIONSHIP TERMINATED.
    If I ever negatively manipulate you, that's going to be the reason why. In fact, I'll sometimes do similar, maybe not to the extreme in the example, even if I still plan on continuing the relationship. I mean, why try correcting your behavior if I'm not going to interact with you anymore?

    And, yes, maybe it's not the most logical or practical approach, but it happens nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Where have I said that Fi types never use Fe?
    Where did I say you said that? There's good reason to think you MIGHT be saying that, as a type that values Fi would necessarily not value Fe, and therefore not use it as much, hence the phrase "propensity" to do so. It's not my fault you took what I said as a personal attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Where did I say you said that? There's good reason to think you MIGHT be saying that, as a type that values Fi would necessarily not value Fe, and therefore not use it as much, hence the phrase "propensity" to do so. It's not my fault you took what I said as a personal attack.
    +1

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    I apologize for this useless, nitpicking post...
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Starting from the same action, as in saying: "I hate you and I wish you were dead".
    I think this is Fe, a Fi ego when saying this would be using his id Fe, but even if we try to see it as Fi, its purpose is still to hurt.

    So the bias was in saying that Fe would be trying to hurt (bad), while Fi would be motivated by a desire to express his information on the relationship (neutral/good).

    A better comparison would have been for example: Fe is trying to hurt by outwardly expressing emotions, Fi is trying to hurt by establishing how bad the relationship is.
    Last edited by PotatoSpirit; 03-30-2008 at 11:02 AM. Reason: rebel apostrophe
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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    A better comparison would have been for example: Fe is trying to hurt by outwardly expressing emotions, Fi is trying to hurt by establishing how bad the relationship is.
    Yup. I'm sorry to say this but while Expat shows a great knowledge about socionics, he still doesn't quite get what Fi really is.

    Asking a true Fi type might help with that.
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