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Thread: How do you identify functions within music?

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    Default How do you identify functions within music?

    It's something I'm interested in at the moment. How do you spot the functions at work in a piece of music? What I'd be really appreciative of is a comprehensive list looking something like this, with an explanation for each function:

    "One can identify x function in a piece of music when the composer/artist uses y to make the individual feel z..."

    Or something like that.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Finally, a reply. And an interesting one at that.

    Is this a good representation of Ti+Se focused music?



    And how about these? (Man, I fucking love tribal house. I don't even need to be dancing to it. I can just sit and listen to the beats. They completely empower me, sending good vibes all over.)



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    Reading about + reminds me of Drum & Bass, which has a little bit more of an edge than Tribal House.

    This is a good example of that, I think:

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    :



    I guess what I see here as far as is conviction and feeling, almost internal anguish about something.

    This is a theme I see frequently in the best blues guitarists.

    :



    Once I realized that this guy recorded 37 different tracks of himself playing cello and put it all together, it forced me to hear the sound with a glazed stare and a slanted head. "Huh. Wow." It's different and novel. I was forced to reconcile the sound and how it was put together and just appreciate what it took to put it together.

    The song is lighthearted in nature and almost makes light of the novelty of how it was constructed.

    There's also here as well. I mean, taking a pencil and fluttering it between two cello strings? Taking a piece of sandpaper and gently grazing it along the cello's surface? Using things that are "outside the box" and out of the norm.

    This also feels to me:

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    I think rick might be correct because when I look at Ti PoLR music, like say this,



    It's precisely the opposite of stuff like this



    With the first songs being very fragmented and not repetitive and the second bringing the repetition to the forefront. Actually the entire song centers on repetition, on an imposed structure (As nearly all of their songs do).

    Oh and here's a contrast to Ti with Ne to Ti with Se. Same song, different performances.



    Also my contribution, this is, in my opinion, an example of gamma Ni



    In general I'd say that the introvert dynamic elements have a flow in them. Different to the inherent structure of the introvert static elements. To be contrasted with the extrovert static ones that break up a piece of music. And lacking the "pick me up" factor of the extrovert dynamic elements. They for the most part calm, settle you down in either your senses or imagination. I'd say the difference between Si and Ni is where they guide you-. If a piece of music, that is of a dynamic introvert element, makes you comfortable sitting in your chair, relaxing I'd say that's Si, while if you spontaneously tend to drift away in your mind I'd say it's Ni. Of course we all experiences different music differently and so some might have a natural tendency to drift away in their mind while others to sink into their chair, so this personal element should also be taken into consideration. Of course a video helps as it gives an idea of how the author intended it to be seen. For example, for this piece of music



    I'd say an introvert dynamic and Si as well as it primarily relaxes me, but if we take the video into consideration it would be primarily Ni. I guess, what's I'm saying is that in terms of music the only notable thing is the temperament of the music, and the concrete elements are too vague to determine and various people might experience them differently.

    To expand this, the dynamic elements have a flow, while the static ones come in packages. The introvert ones settle you down, while the extrovert ones pick you up. The introvert dynamic elements have a flow that produces a sort of experience in your own self. Kind of, evoke a universe in yourself either of sensory experience or a mental one. An example



    The extrovert dynamic elements also have the flow, but they don't let you fall into the experiencing the music, they give you the experience, they guide/direct you. It's a controlled process, a result of their inherent rationality.



    The static extrovert elements just bounce you around. This music does not move you in the manner the extrovert dynamic elements do, it does not flow, it is not controlled movement, it has lots of uncontrolled leaps, transitions. The music comes in packages, or better expressed, in bursts. Like bursts wrapped into packages. Like as if it were composed of a lot of touch detonated explosives. An example



    The introvert static elements also come in packages, but it's more like building blocks. Like legos's and not touch detonated explosives. These lego's are used to build something, an experience or something. To portray something. This is the music where you can notice the structure of it. In fact, the music is about that structure. However where the structure is not that of broken/shattered glass, wild like for the extrovert static elemnts. An example



    ok, now for applying this, I'll take some songs and analyze them according to this



    The music doesn't flow, it has clear transitions, breakages. However it is not in bursts, but it low key. I'd say the dominant theme of the music is an introvert static element. Further more it's not inhuman in it, quite the opposite, the song is quite humane with it's focus on a moral issue of depersonalization of the environment. So I'd say the dominant IM element of this piece of music is Fi.



    The music has transitions, but the music flows. And it does not evoke but presents. And because I cannot understand the language I can't really determine whether the main focus is to make you experience an emotion or to convey a sense of purpose, functionality. So... a dead end, just Fe or Te as the dominant IME from me for this one.



    The music flows. However it also has clear sub themes, one could divide it, that is, one could find a prominent structure in it. Since the both elements are so prominent this leads me to conclude how there are two rather then one dominant elements in this piece of music. First for the flow, the flow seems to oscillate between low and high key, as if it is in service of something else. However it is there primarily to guide one in experiencing the piece of music, to determine it, not to evoke free unconstrained experiences. So I'd say the flow is an extroverted dynamic element. With that, there are strong emotions present but they are completely in the service of the story he is telling, that is, I don't think the song focuses on making one feel as making one realize, the feelings come from the realizations, follow form the properties of the functioning of that group of people. He is basically focusing on the functioning of that group of people. Which makes me think of Te. However analyzing the flow makes me thing it is a secondary element of the two as it seems to be directed by something else. Now the structure. The songs posses structure in performance and it is not the kind where element are colliding but it builds something. This makes me think it is an introvert static element. And after looking at the music itself, the lyrics, the message which exists, is see that it has a humane focus which makes think it's Fi. So for this song I'd say it's dominant elements are Fi and Te where Te is in service of the Fi, serves to convey the Fi.



    The music is compartmentalized. Clear segregations and transitions. However it has a certain underlining flow to it through the constant repletion of certain music elements while making variations on that theme. However I'd say it's subtle. Not a primary focus of the music. Ok, the music clearly posses structure. And I would say that it comes in short bursts. Most clearly, the variations on a theme aspect of it. It produces a certain sense of disharmony about it, I'd say brings along a lot of diversity to the piece. So I would say an extrovert static element. Looking at the piece I'd say Ne as well because of the variation on a theme aspect of it. In general I'd say that any piece of music that could be considered a sting of variations on a theme is Ne. Regarding this, with the variations it's basically about themselves, about the experimentation, about the possibilities in them, and not to produce an impact. However, I'm not entirely certain for this song, thinking about it I could also interpret it as Ti with the imposed structure being deliberate in that the imposed structure is the variation on a theme. So I guess it's some sort of mix between Ti and Ne I'd say in that the theme of the variation on the theme is Ti, an impersonal theme, while the Ne is the variations themselves, not designed to have an impact on the listener, but expose them to novelty in expression.

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    Cheers guys. Sneg, I swear your post actually slowed down my computer. But a lot of it was very informative.

    I suppose my most of my music is mainly characterised by Ni beats. Gamma NT was what people came up with when they analysed it a few months ago.
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    Good joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    It's probably useful to first identify the information aspects in music, I'll post about that a little later.
    That's what I was aiming for, actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    More on this --

    Information aspects are mixed up a bit with information elements of the audience because music only "works" because of the way that our brains work (for instance -- the V-I progression only works because the brain finds the resolution of the dissonant 7th (whether or not it is physically played, it is in the harmonics) to be pleasing).

    The most obvious/apparent (to me) information aspects in music are those of Sensing and Thinking (I realise that I'm at odds with much of the forum here, as I always am when there is a discussion about music).

    There is also generally a lot of overlap with the information aspects (for example -- I would say that the quality of being "dissonant" is all of , , and ; maybe even in some cases but Ethics in music is mostly to do with the listener rather than inherent in the music itself IMO).

    This is what I think:

    -- pitch, volume, note length, tempo, articulation.

    -- consonance/dissonance (in this case, in terms of the way it sounds), timbre, texture.

    -- basically all the markings on the pages, note names, chord names, performance directions, instrumentation, tessitura, compositional devices (i.e. tierce de picardy, alberti bass, ostinato, perfect cadence, etc.), harmony to some extent, context of the piece (shared with Fi, where I'll talk more about it).

    -- consonance/dissonance (in this case, in terms of the relationships between notes and what is "known" to be consonant or dissonant; and also in terms of intonation -- the relationship between what pitch is being played and what pitch *should* be played), form ("repetition" would probably fall under here), harmonic progression*, rhythm, tessitura, relationship between different volumes (how much louder is forte than piano?) or speeds (how much slower is largo than adagio), intervals between notes (both inside and outside of chords).

    ...I think my conception of Ti has a lot of Se in it., but like I said I think that S & T are the most apparent aspects.

    -- performance directions, musical interpretation of performer(s)/conductor.

    -- harmonic progression*, rhythmic progression (in terms of how it "drives" the piece, which would be linked to the Se information element), "dynamic" changes in volume/tempo, the "story" in program music, consonance/dissonance (in this case, in how it makes the music progress).

    Ni is basically the "feeling" of music moving in a certain direction via changes in pitch, rhythm, tempo, harmony, etc. etc. etc.

    -- I'd say that the Fe "inherent" in music is limited to the effect it has on the listener, the rest is probably in the realm of information elements because it's totally dependent on perception.

    -- The composer or performer's "intention", personal meaning or the context of the piece (shared with Te -- for example, that Peter Sculthorpe wrote Irkanda IV to express his grief about his father's death would be Te information about that Fi aspect, or that the cor anglais solo in Kakadu represents the voice of Emmanuel Papper (who commissioned the work) as he talked about his wife, that in his pieces As stand for Australia and high Es stands for union with divine consciousness).

    ...

    Harmony and harmonic progression is an area of great overlap, the major aspects of which are Te, Ti & Ni --

    • Te is that in bar 4 you have G7 followed by C and you are in C major (for simplicity's sake we'll say it's because the key signature tells you so in this case).
    • Ti is that, in C major, G7 is chord V7 and C is chord I (for those with less musical training, the number of the chord describes its relationship to the key signature, which is why this is Ti).
    • Ni is that V7 is "moving" to I.
    • Ti(form)/Ni("movement") is that bar 4 and this particular chord combination is at the end of a phrase; Te is that in this situation this is called a perfect cadence.


    ...

    I could write a lot more (and probably will), but maybe later.
    I don't think you can generalise like that at all. Music is a personal experience - different for every type. I don't think you can say things like 'consonance/dissonance mean Si' or something. Things like dissonance or tempo are merely tools that can be utilised by any type for different reasons. For instance, using Fe as an example, I could use dissonance to indicate a broken heart; I could use quick tempo changes to indicate a troubled state of mind; I could use all the things you mentioned - note length, pitches, articulation etc. - to paint an emotional picture. I wouldn't consciously think about it like that - I would just search for the feeling without thinking what techniques I was using - but if you were to analyse the finished composition, it would be just as structured as if I'd started with an outline and rough draft so to speak.

    But I sort of understand where you're coming from ... because I had an INTj teacher who seemed to have the same approach to musical expression as you do. She would have this complex formula on how to depict suchandsuch an emotion when I was like ?? - Can't I just simulate the actual emotion so I don't have to worry about the theory? But anyway, the interesting thing is that as long as you use your strong functions to express yourself, the performance is going to come across as sincere. That's the conclusion I've come to anyway.
    Last edited by Rubicon; 03-28-2008 at 01:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    More on this --

    Information aspects are mixed up a bit with information elements of the audience because music only "works" because of the way that our brains work (for instance -- the V-I progression only works because the brain finds the resolution of the dissonant 7th (whether or not it is physically played, it is in the harmonics) to be pleasing).

    The most obvious/apparent (to me) information aspects in music are those of Sensing and Thinking (I realise that I'm at odds with much of the forum here, as I always am when there is a discussion about music).

    There is also generally a lot of overlap with the information aspects (for example -- I would say that the quality of being "dissonant" is all of , , and ; maybe even in some cases but Ethics in music is mostly to do with the listener rather than inherent in the music itself IMO).

    This is what I think:

    -- pitch, volume, note length, tempo, articulation.

    -- consonance/dissonance (in this case, in terms of the way it sounds), timbre, texture.

    -- basically all the markings on the pages, note names, chord names, performance directions, instrumentation, tessitura, compositional devices (i.e. tierce de picardy, alberti bass, ostinato, perfect cadence, etc.), harmony to some extent, context of the piece (shared with Fi, where I'll talk more about it).

    -- consonance/dissonance (in this case, in terms of the relationships between notes and what is "known" to be consonant or dissonant; and also in terms of intonation -- the relationship between what pitch is being played and what pitch *should* be played), form ("repetition" would probably fall under here), harmonic progression*, rhythm, tessitura, relationship between different volumes (how much louder is forte than piano?) or speeds (how much slower is largo than adagio), intervals between notes (both inside and outside of chords).

    ...I think my conception of Ti has a lot of Se in it., but like I said I think that S & T are the most apparent aspects.

    -- performance directions, musical interpretation of performer(s)/conductor.

    -- harmonic progression*, rhythmic progression (in terms of how it "drives" the piece, which would be linked to the Se information element), "dynamic" changes in volume/tempo, the "story" in program music, consonance/dissonance (in this case, in how it makes the music progress).

    Ni is basically the "feeling" of music moving in a certain direction via changes in pitch, rhythm, tempo, harmony, etc. etc. etc.

    -- I'd say that the Fe "inherent" in music is limited to the effect it has on the listener, the rest is probably in the realm of information elements because it's totally dependent on perception.

    -- The composer or performer's "intention", personal meaning or the context of the piece (shared with Te -- for example, that Peter Sculthorpe wrote Irkanda IV to express his grief about his father's death would be Te information about that Fi aspect, or that the cor anglais solo in Kakadu represents the voice of Emmanuel Papper (who commissioned the work) as he talked about his wife, that in his pieces As stand for Australia and high Es stands for union with divine consciousness).

    ...

    Harmony and harmonic progression is an area of great overlap, the major aspects of which are Te, Ti & Ni --
    • Te is that in bar 4 you have G7 followed by C and you are in C major (for simplicity's sake we'll say it's because the key signature tells you so in this case).
    • Ti is that, in C major, G7 is chord V7 and C is chord I (for those with less musical training, the number of the chord describes its relationship to the key signature, which is why this is Ti).
    • Ni is that V7 is "moving" to I.
    • Ti(form)/Ni("movement") is that bar 4 and this particular chord combination is at the end of a phrase; Te is that in this situation this is called a perfect cadence.

    ...

    I could write a lot more (and probably will), but maybe later.
    I think you are not really expressing the Fe in music adequately. I think that Fi is seeking to make and establish a connection with the audience and their ability to like it. Fe is the pure emotional expression of music that dynamically can change with the instrumentation used. Fe is not just how it affects the listener, but also how the musician conveys themselves through the music.
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    In which case, how would the composer's "intention" be any different by that qualification?
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    You've misinterpreted me. You could use any information element you wanted to inspire whatever technique you wanted, but it doesn't change what that technique is.

    I don't see the 'information element' as inspiring the 'technique' - I think it's the other way around. I think the technique is - well, merely that - something used in order to create a certain mood or feel within the music.

    "Painting an emotional picture" is not something inherent in music itself, IMO, but is a common use for music. When you start talking about the emotions, you're not talking about information aspects any more because it is all about the perception of the listeners.

    I agree with Logos in that you're undervaluing Fe and Fi in music. For me, that's all music is - so I have a hard time understanding your point of view. It seems to me that the whole point of music is to affect your mood in some way. Don't all composers have an idea in mind of what emotion they want to put across? Sure - there will be differences in interpretation by the listeners ... but if each listener gets an entirely different feeling or mood from a composition, then the composer has imo utterly failed. What sort of composer writes a piece with only technique in mind? The only pieces like that are studies, technical exercises - designed to perfect the performer's technique, nothing else.
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    Again, you've missed the point of what I was trying to talk about. I am deliberately separating the "point" or "use" of music from the music itself.

    What's 'the music itself'? Are you talking just about the black dots on the page? What's music if not the performance of it?

    I have to say if that "all" music is to you is Fi and Fe, it seems like a very naive point of view and I think you devalue technique too much.

    I just meant that without emotion, music is nothing. Of course technique is important - but only at it serves to create music.

    "The whole point of music" is not to affect your mood -- this is only one common use of music, and emotion/technique is not a dichotomy, nor are they the only factors involved. Music can have several other uses, including but not limited to:[*]"Background noise" -- especially the divertimento, common in the Viennese era, designed mostly to enhance the pleasant physical sensations of a banquet etc.

    yeah - to create a certain atmosphere i.e. mood

    [*]Education/information/mnemonic devices -- for instance, singing the alphabet is hardly an emotional experience, the melody is used to help remember the order of the letters. Plainchant could fall under this category as fluctuations in pitch were used to highlight words rather than induce an emotional experience, and the Mass was sung in the first place because it goes on for a long time and it is easier to sustain singing than speaking the whole thing (the throat tends to get dry, etc.).[/B][/I]

    ?? alphabet songs and chanting hardly constitute great compositions - I assume we're talking about decent music here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Again, you've missed the point of what I was trying to talk about. I am deliberately separating the "point" or "use" of music from the music itself.



    I have to say if that "all" music is to you is Fi and Fe, it seems like a very naive point of view and I think you devalue technique too much.

    "The whole point of music" is not to affect your mood -- this is only one common use of music, and emotion/technique is not a dichotomy, nor are they the only factors involved. Music can have several other uses, including but not limited to:


    • "Background noise" -- especially the divertimento, common in the Viennese era, designed mostly to enhance the pleasant physical sensations of a banquet etc.
    • Education/information/mnemonic devices -- for instance, singing the alphabet is hardly an emotional experience, the melody is used to help remember the order of the letters. Plainchant could fall under this category as fluctuations in pitch were used to highlight words rather than induce an emotional experience, and the Mass was sung in the first place because it goes on for a long time and it is easier to sustain singing than speaking the whole thing (the throat tends to get dry, etc.).
    To your general post, and of course in particular the highlighted part:

    The sound waves generated by music are similar to some of the brain wave frequencies the brain uses in regards to emotion. What music therefore does is channel into similar emotional frequencies that the brain uses. The whole point of music is to affect your mood, as it ties in with some of the frequencies the brain uses in regards to mood. There is an emotional component to every tune. The main arteries - Major and Minor key - evoking 'happy' and 'sad' are the basis of all melodic structures.

    IE when something is no longer in key..it is no longer music. I would be reluctant to relate such things to functions as you are imo.

    You could be on to summit of course, however I'm not particulary convinced by the whole music=socionics, at the mo. If anything I'm more of a 'Chopin' fan here
    -- basically all the markings on the pages, note names, chord names, performance directions, instrumentation, tessitura, compositional devices (i.e. tierce de picardy, alberti bass, ostinato, perfect cadence, etc.), harmony to some extent, context of the piece
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'function' of this is to make music literate...ie to read the music. It is therefore in a nutshell a form of reading. I do not think having the ability to read should be tied in with function Te..literacy is universal, regardless of type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I do not think having the ability to read should be tied in with function Te..literacy is universal, regardless of type.
    I know nothing about music, but I think in that particular point I can say that I think you're wrong.

    This mixes up types and functions, as if the implication was that people of types with weak Te couldn't read. That is fallacious. For instance, pure mathematics is clearly tied to Ti. Does that mean that weak Ti types can't do mathematics? Obviously not. And so on.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    when socionics goes too far.


    not sure what's better, thehotelambush summing up music as or the opposite direction where you assign an information aspect to every little thing. i do agree with what tereg has proposed, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I know nothing about music, but I think in that particular point I can say that I think you're wrong.

    This mixes up types and functions, as if the implication was that people of types with weak Te couldn't read. That is fallacious. For instance, pure mathematics is clearly tied to Ti. Does that mean that weak Ti types can't do mathematics? Obviously not. And so on.
    Wait..I'm saying the ability to read should not be tied in with Te. Your saying Te shouldn't be tied in with the ability to read? I do not understand where you disagree with me, or perhaps you refer to something else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Wait..I'm saying the ability to read should not be tied in with Te. Your saying Te shouldn't be tied in with the ability to read? I do not understand where you disagree with me, or perhaps you refer to something else?
    I think that the act of focusing on reading - not the "ability" - can be tied in with a some functions; I'd say Te, Ti, and Si; perhaps also Ni.

    Just like the act of focusing on doing mathematical calculations can be tied in with Ti. How would you argue otherwise?

    Now, if the basis of your argument is something like "how can you suggest that something as universal as reading can be tied to functions", then I don't think we are talking about the same understanding of what functions even are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I think that the act of focusing on reading - not the "ability" - can be tied in with a some functions; I'd say Te, Ti, and Si; perhaps also Ni.

    Just like the act of focusing on doing mathematical calculations can be tied in with Ti. How would you argue otherwise?

    Now, if the basis of your argument is something like "how can you suggest that something as universal as reading can be tied to functions", then I don't think we are talking about the same understanding of what functions even are.
    Okay dokay, fair point. For the purpose of semantics, i'll refer to to information aspects rather than functions then?

    At the moment, I dont see how any of the information aspects cannot be tied into reading. I mean, we could pull out relations to it with any of the aspects, to varying degrees of ambiguity (which in terms of music, is kindov what I'm seeing). For instance, the ability to read (or do sums) is more in line with IQ, or perhaps also dyslexia, which I do not think is related to socionics.

    Just like the act of focusing on doing mathematical calculations can be tied in with Ti. How would you argue otherwise?


    When did this become an argument. Is this not a discussion. (also.. when did i mention mathematics and Ti, I'm talking about music, however)..

    Of course it can be tied in with Ti, but I would be interested in how it could not be tied in with Fe. Both information aspects are rational, they simply place different emphasis on the information at hand. For instance..Ti could be better suited to solve a mathematical problem for pure theory, Fe could be more interested in solving the same mathematical problem if it applied to say, engineering work for building a local amenity which would improve the mood of the community. This is not exclusive, and I understand it may not be the best of examples, but as it is, it's still an example However, okay dokay, place the information aspect in as a function.. I know of a mathematics professor who types herself ESFp...Ti not a confident function in her Model A?

    I think what i'm saying is yes, some aspects of mathematics can be tied to information aspects, and from what I can see is its easier (or more convenient) to tie maths in with certain Ti or Te, but I think music is more vague. But overall if someone really wanted to, it could be tied to possibly all 8 of them, at least thats what I am seeing.

    Now, if the basis of your argument is something like "how can you suggest that something as universal as reading can be tied to functions", then I don't think we are talking about the same understanding of what functions even are

    No I dont think reading can be tied to functions, for reasons such as IQ, dyslexia and a host of other psychological related issues. As I said, I understand how a person could apply some relations to certain activities such as the aspects, but in reality its much more complicated, and I agree with Implied that you are taking socioncis too far. However, if I am incorrect in this, I look forward you correcting my current viewpoint, thanks.

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    We're talking about very different things. For instance, the way I see it, you seem to see functions as if they were skills. That's the only way I can understand your argumentation based on IQ, dyslexia, etc, or the reference to an ESFp being a mathematic professor. The girl with the consistent highest grades in mathematics, in my own graduate studies, is ESFp, too. To me that has nothing - nothing at all - to do with mathematics itself being essentially Ti.

    For instance, so a Te dominant with dyslexia will have more difficulty with reading than a Te PoLR who is not dyslexic. Of course. But to me that has nothing to do with whether or not reading is particularly tied in with Te.

    I don't want to get into such a long discussion because I think it will be unprofitable. But another example: I think focusing on your senses is related to focus on Si. And that has nothing to with, say, blind or deaf people having one less sense to focus on.

    I will say this: everybody can use, and does use, all functions. Si is my PoLR, and I think that clipping your fingernails is tied in with Si. And no, I have no difficulty whatever when clipping my fingernails.

    You seem to be saying, things that everybody can do can't be attributed to functions. I say, everything can be attributed to functions; but where you see the types is not when you have to use this or that functions, but in more blurred situations where it's easier to "drift" into using this or that function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    We're talking about very different things. For instance, the way I see it, you seem to see functions as if they were skills. That's the only way I can understand your argumentation based on IQ, dyslexia, etc, or the reference to an ESFp being a mathematic professor. The girl with the consistent highest grades in mathematics, in my own graduate studies, is ESFp, too. To me that has nothing - nothing at all - to do with mathematics itself being essentially Ti.
    Umm.. I've never really thought about information aspects in terms of skills, but I suppose they are to the extent that if one is more dominant Si, then they are more skilled in Si than someone else who isn't.

    Umm.. your saying mathematics is Ti. So are you saying if one is confident in maths then they are confident in Ti? Or in practice they don't need to be confident in Ti to be good at maths, I do not understand.
    For instance, so a Te dominant with dyslexia will have more difficulty with reading than a Te PoLR who is not dyslexic. Of course. But to me that has nothing to do with whether or not reading is particularly tied in with Te.
    I don't understand what you mean, or how you see the information aspects in the context of reading or music then. Theres other factors than functions information aspects involved. For instance, how do you tie in perfect pitch with functions?
    I don't want to get into such a long discussion because I think it will be unprofitable. But another example: I think focusing on your senses is related to focus on Si. And that has nothing to with, say, blind or deaf people having one less sense to focus on.
    I concur. No need to get into a long discussion, outcomes and products would be more useful here than debates imo. You did enter the discussion tho, all the same.

    Well, we seem to be in agreement, that there is more to these things than just the 'functions'. I think its perhaps interesting to tie activities such as music or reading to the aspects, but as you demonstrate yourself, theres got to be more to it.

    To be honest I dont know what you are getting at Expat, perhaps I am just having a dull day!
    I will say this: everybody can use, and does use, all functions. Si is my PoLR, and I think that clipping your fingernails is tied in with Si. And no, I have no difficulty whatever when clipping my fingernails.

    You seem to be saying, things that everybody can do can't be attributed to functions. I say, everything can be attributed to functions; but where you see the types is not when you have to use this or that functions, but in more blurred situations where it's easier to "drift" into using this or that function.
    I'm saying lots of things can be attributed to functions, but not all things all of the time. Music, imo, is one of those times, is all I was saying!
    Last edited by Cyclops; 03-28-2008 at 03:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    and if you think I'm wrong, please tell me why.
    I'd like to understand your rationale for how Se and Ti are evident in those... pieces of... music.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Can I just remind everyone that I'm talking about information aspects. Not functions. Not information elements. Not even types. Thankyou.
    After reading the wiki article at the beginning of this thread, I have to admit that I was misinterpreting your posts. I didn't really understand the difference btwn information aspects and information functions. I sort of see what you're getting at now.

    Btw, aren't information aspects and elements one and the same? The article suggests they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Can I just remind everyone that I'm talking about information aspects. Not functions. Not information elements. Not even types. Thankyou.
    I suppose you can remind us, but even then, I think that you are slighting the presence of Fe and Fi in music.
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    lol @logos nu avatar ^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I suppose you can remind us, but even then, I think that you are slighting the presence of Fe and Fi in music.
    How do you think Fe and Fi manifest themselves in music?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    How do you think Fe and Fi manifest themselves in music?
    Fe is the feeling that the musician places into the music while they are playing. When the musician hits that note - which would be the observable Te-nature - you can also see the anger, passion, or sadness that underlies it (Fe). Te may be the notes on the page, but Fe is what makes it come alive and the Fe in music is the dynamic flow of emotions in that music. Fi is the overall static relationship that the musician has with the music itself, the emotional connection with each note or section played.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Fe is the feeling that the musician places into the music while they are playing. When the musician hits that note - which would be the observable Te-nature - you can also see the anger, passion, or sadness that underlies it (Fe). Te may be the notes on the page, but Fe is what makes it come alive and the Fe in music is the dynamic flow of emotions in that music. Fi is the overall static relationship that the musician has with the music itself, the emotional connection with each note or section played.
    I agree with you 150% regarding Fe. What do you mean by 'static' relationship and Fi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I agree with you 150% regarding Fe. What do you mean by 'static' relationship and Fi?
    The relationship that does not change and the connection that the musician has established with their own music.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The relationship that does not change and the connection that the musician has established with their own music.
    Do you think an emotional connection can be static? Seems to me it would have to change to some extent with each performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    Do you think an emotional connection can be static? Seems to me it would have to change to some extent with each performance.
    Yes, but not to the rapid degree that Fe changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Yes, but not to the rapid degree that Fe changes.
    But if you watch a good performer (who is using Fe) play the same composition on different occasions, his/her interpretations are not going to differ from each other that much. Does that mean the performer is not using Fe? You can't let your own emotions guide you when you're performing - unless they happen to coincide with the piece of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    But if you watch a good performer (who is using Fe) play the same composition on different occasions, his/her interpretations are not going to differ from each other that much. Does that mean the performer is not using Fe? You can't let your own emotions guide you when you're performing - unless they happen to coincide with the piece of course.
    As a static Fi thought..Fi is what the performer feels within, Fe could maybe be whats displayed externally as the same notes create the same external emotional displays leading to same type of Fe expressiveness.

    Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    As a static Fi thought..Fi is what the performer feels within, Fe could maybe be whats displayed externally as the same notes create the same external emotional displays leading to same type of Fe expressiveness.

    Just a thought.
    I don't quite get what you're meaning here
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I don't quite get what you're meaning here
    Well, how I see Fe and Fi just now is kindov like this:

    In terms of descriptions, shorthand I would say Fe is concerned more so with external emotional cues, such as how frequently does someone smile, glare etc..lots of emotional cues of facial expressions (and the body language) is Fe.

    Fi is more internal as to morals, subjective judgements of behaviours and the like, being needy or not.

    So for instance, as an ISTp supresses their Fe, they tend not to show much emotion in their face or body language, where as say an ESFj is much more externally expressive.

    So on that definition, I'm trying to look at putting Fi and Fe in terms of a performer performing music. So I think maybe Fe is the expressiveness put into the music & the performance, whereas Fi is how the performer relates internally to the music - maybe learning it gives some sentimental or personal deep feelings. I'm trying to incorporate it into a performer giving the external performance the same over a number of times, but that may not tie in to the internal relationship with the piece (which is probably Fi) At least on my current Fe and Fi viewpoint.

    Umm.. What do you think?
    Last edited by Cyclops; 03-29-2008 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Well, how I see Fe and Fi just now is kindov like this:

    In terms of descriptions, shorthand I would say Fe is concerned more so with external emotional cues, such as how frequently does someone smile, glare etc..lots of emotional cues of facial expressions (and the body language) is Fe.

    Fi is more internal as to morals, subjective judgements of behaviours and the like, being needy or not.

    So for instance, as an ISTp supresses their Fe, they tend not to show much emotion in their face or body language, where as say an ESFp is much more externally expressive.

    So on that definition, I'm trying to look at putting Fi and Fe in terms of a performer performing music. So I think maybe Fe is the expressiveness put into the music & the performance, whereas Fi is how the performer relates internally to the music - maybe learning it gives some sentimental or personal deep feelings. I'm trying to incorporate it into a performer giving the external performance the same over a number of times, but that may not tie in to the internal relationship with the piece (which is probably Fi) At least on my current Fe and Fi viewpoint.

    Umm.. What do you think?
    I see what you're getting at now. I was just wondering though ... I mean - I can see that Fe is the outward manifestation of emotions ... but they have to come from somewhere. Do you think that Fe expressiveness "counts" as Fe if it's the same every time the performer does the piece? I mean surely you can't actually feel the emotions on cue so to speak. So it would be just a simulation of the actual emotion. ... like acting, if that makes sense Does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I see what you're getting at now. I was just wondering though ... I mean - I can see that Fe is the outward manifestation of emotions ... but they have to come from somewhere. Do you think that Fe expressiveness "counts" as Fe if it's the same every time the performer does the piece? I mean surely you can't actually feel the emotions on cue so to speak. So it would be just a simulation of the actual emotion. ... like acting, if that makes sense Does it?
    I don't know, it could be, but then I think someone has to be in the mood to be externally emotionally expressive, so I don't see why a performer in the mood couldn't express the same emotional output .. I think sometimes you can tell if a performer means it or is faking it, just like you can tell if someone is laughing to humour a person or cause their funny?

    So fake or real could happen and it could be called Fe, but personally I think Fe is probably good at spotting the geniune expressiveness from the fake-os.

    What do you think, being a creative Fe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I don't know, it could be, but then I think someone has to be in the mood to be externally emotionally expressive, so I don't see why a performer in the mood couldn't express the same emotional output .. I think sometimes you can tell if a performer means it or is faking it, just like you can tell if someone is laughing to humour a person or cause their funny?

    So fake or real could happen and it could be called Fe, but personally I think Fe is probably good at spotting the geniune expressiveness from the fake-os.

    What do you think, being a creative Fe?
    Well, I don't know ... it's weird ... because personally I don't really have to be 'in the mood' when I play ... I mean because during a recital, you might go through 10 pieces - all which require different moods - so you would have to be schizo to actually experience all those different emotions during that timespan. I don't really know what it is - that's why I was asking. I think I experience the actual emotion like really faintly or something, and simulate the rest if you know what I mean. But of course it's great if I happen to be in the right mood. I love when I'm feeling angry and I have to play a piece that needs that emotion. I can bash the hell out of the piano and everyone claps at the end of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    +1000000000000000000000000

    Where do you get your awesome emoticons?!!

    You can't go as hard on the violin though - you'd get strings and bowhairs flying everywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    You can't go as hard on the violin though - you'd get strings and bowhairs flying everywhere.
    Sounds like a dry, frizzy, heat damaged hair style!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I'm pulling an americancer and stealing them from another forum. She's such a bad example. I put all the blame on her.

    And actually I have been known to break a few bow hairs in fiddle competitions........


    It's best when people are not expecting it out of you ... you know - you know you come across all sweet and quiet ... and then you sock it right to them. One of my favourite performance moments is when I made a guy jump in his chair when I started the piece. Sort of wrecked the mood for me though cause I couldn't help smiling.
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