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Thread: ESFjs: ditzy and air-headed?

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    Default ESFjs: ditzy and air-headed?

    In my experience, ESFJ women, especially, are ditzy and air-headed. I can't manage to hold conversation with them worth a damn. They are always around to help out, but quite frankly they always seem ready to help out anyone.

    My little sister is an ESFJ. She's a dear, but really predicatable and quite frankly she comes off to me as shallow. But my comments above qualify for every ESFJ female I've met, not just her.

    How the hell are you supposed to have a relationship with a dual who is so shallow?

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    Maybe she's not as shallow as you credit her as. I'm a ESFj and I know there are plenty of times when people have told me I'm clueless or "out in left field", but I know more about what's going on than I let on. I also feel things very deeply. How can anyone accuse us of being shallow? I guess I can see if your talking about "reputation", which most ESFj's are conscious of, but we think just as our duals do. We just think differently. Intellect and logic is not as strong a characteristic of ours as it is an intj's. We try to think logically about our feelings, and that's next to impossible, as feelings are hardly logical. It's the same for Intj's when they experience feelings they want to think through. We really do have a few things in common. We like to help out, yes. I get satisfaction from someone else's happiness.
    I could argue- how are ESFj's supposed to get with a dual who is so independent. I like closeness in any relationship, not just romantic but friendship as well. I think it adds so much more. I have a hard time understanding the way an INTj behaves, because it is so foreign in every aspect. It's hard to get close to someone who continually pushes you away. It's lucky we don't give up easily.
    It is possible for an ESFj to be an individual, it's just hard to see as usually we seem to bend because we dislike conflict. Hopefully that will help clear up any doubts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    In my experience, ESFJ women, especially, are ditzy and air-headed. I can't manage to hold conversation with them worth a damn. They are always around to help out, but quite frankly they always seem ready to help out anyone.

    My little sister is an ESFJ. She's a dear, but really predicatable and quite frankly she comes off to me as shallow. But my comments above qualify for every ESFJ female I've met, not just her.

    How the hell are you supposed to have a relationship with a dual who is so shallow?
    Maybe your experience is just a little limited. The girls I've known that I'm pretty sure are ESE/ESFj have seemed kinda ditsy, but were actually pretty deep when you gave them a chance. I also like the fact that they keep me grounded in reality without me feeling like I'm being held back.
    That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Perhaps this is a stereotype based on multiple factors:

    ESFj's are commonly female and make up a larger portion of society (E + S).

    Females are a part of disparity.

    for example, females receive less teacher to student time than males do (proven stat).

    How could they not be as intelligent if not give the chance to be?

    And why is it always ESFj FEMALES mentioned thread over thread, forum over forum-- again and again? What about male ESFjs? Did they suddenly die off into oblivion? Are they stupid, too?

    Or is it that they could possibly be more intelligent that the sterotypical "Geek" types if given the chance to be?

    And what exactly is intelligence? Just because it isnt logical intelligence doesnt mean that it isnt equally valuable. It is but a different context of intelligence type and source.

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    An ESFj from a culture other than your own may be the ticket
    I(N)Tj

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    my best friend is an MBTI ESFx. i love her as she's so loyal and a great listener (except lately after she got engaged - priorities are beginning to split) but she does match the stereotypical female image. loves shopping, can't resist a sale, loves gossip mags, doesn't like to think about serious or difficult issues... or thinking per se. she's not dumb. she's a pretty good doctor and knows her stuff. but we're very very different.

    what does an ESFj male look like? i don't think i'd know if he's in the next cubicle.

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    perhaps ESFj males suffer from the same problem faced by INTj females....

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    as an INTj i have been keen to get myself a Russian ESFj. apparently the "russian brides" market is full of well-educated, well-mannered ladies who are fed up of native russian men.

    i would love to fall in love deeply with my ESFj dual but she must have 2 special qualities.... 1) well-educated to degree level at least and 2) would somehow like to use my developed knowledge of Socionics in some pratical way e.g. a dating service.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    The author of this posting writes more like ENTj than INTj. More shallow in explaining and avoids going into analizeing complexities in the matter. Sounds a lot like Expat.
    Semiotical process

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    sounds like the reason i hate the Myers-Briggs "quick and dirty" model which i believe is biased towards our extravertist society. Socionics is far more fairer in describing the types regardless of this obvious bias.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirana
    perhaps ESFj males suffer from the same problem faced by INTj females....

    Highly probable. Well, same relation of problem...a bit inversed I'd assume.

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    ESFj males can do very well in respect to their "inversed-masculinity" (ethical nature) as i might put it. On other hand, INTj females can take flak for theirs (being cold/logical).
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Ok, I don't think ESFj and INTj would make a good match just based on descriptions. I don't think an ESFj female would be that interested in an INTj male, and as an INTj female, ESFj males don't sound all that great to me. Of course I have no idea what type my husband is, so who knows?

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    I think all ESFj's have the patience to keep trying to get to know the INTj. We just don't give up that easily when we know what we want. It takes a lot of work, but we get a lot of satisfaction from small things that look like improvement, and that helps. I always feel extremely calm around an the INTj that I adore. It's almost like a serene completeness; like I am exactly how I like me when I'm with him. I wonder if that's just how an ESFj would feel, or if the INTj could feel that too with the right person?

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    Default Re: ESFJs

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    In my experience, ESFJ women, especially, are ditzy and air-headed. I can't manage to hold conversation with them worth a damn. They are always around to help out, but quite frankly they always seem ready to help out anyone.

    My little sister is an ESFJ. She's a dear, but really predicatable and quite frankly she comes off to me as shallow. But my comments above qualify for every ESFJ female I've met, not just her.

    How the hell are you supposed to have a relationship with a dual who is so shallow?
    I find this offensive.

    Esfj's are not ditsy or shallow. They are focused on people not theories and ideas. They have a firm grasp on social relationships and are motivated by altruism. They have a light touch and a way of making others feel good. They are easy to get along with and easily accept others.

    They would certainly bring balance to an intj who was willing to value their contribution.

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    I think we should get out of the whole stereotypical debate. It is VERY EASY in my opinion to blame a person's behaviour on their type although it may provide some rationalisation for it.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    I agree. That's what Ive been trying to point out in several different places. I get so frustrated from it.

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    IMHO I give you self-realisation:

    1) No knowledge of type thus no idea why you act the way you do thus easily manipulated by anything from other people to the media.

    2) Basic knowledge of type i.e. identified with a type and had an awe moment of "that sounds like me" kind of realisation

    3) Advanced knowledge of type (Socionics) understand how you relate to others, the hidden agenda, functional analysis etc etc.

    4) "act on reason" i.e. able to act intentionally in whatever way you have to in order to interact more effectively with any type at stage 1 or 2.

    5) "act on instinct" i.e. without even have to think you just relate to anyone thus your quest for duality can come through being polyamorous (many relationships with integrity rather then just your monogomous dual).

    n) "rounded person" i.e. meeting in the middle as it were...can relate to anyone...can make any relationship work... can ultimately tie the knot with anyone regardless of what you used to demand from a partner... you have total acceptance of your SELF and others.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    ESFJs... deep?

    How can an ESFJ be anywhere near deep? Don't you need intuition for that?

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    let's have some fun....

    Sensing vs Intuition

    is like...

    being down to earth vs being up in the clouds i.e. surface vs conceptual knowledge

    Ethics vs Logic

    is like...

    being empathetic vs being dispassionate i.e. warm vs cold decisions

    Warm can be Cold and Cold could be Warm, it just depends what planet you live on.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowyc
    IMHO I give you self-realisation:

    1) No knowledge of type thus no idea why you act the way you do thus easily manipulated by anything from other people to the media.

    2) Basic knowledge of type i.e. identified with a type and had an awe moment of "that sounds like me" kind of realisation

    3) Advanced knowledge of type (Socionics) understand how you relate to others, the hidden agenda, functional analysis etc etc.

    4) "act on reason" i.e. able to act intentionally in whatever way you have to in order to interact more effectively with any type at stage 1 or 2.

    5) "act on instinct" i.e. without even have to think you just relate to anyone thus your quest for duality can come through being polyamorous (many relationships with integrity rather then just your monogomous dual).

    n) "rounded person" i.e. meeting in the middle as it were...can relate to anyone...can make any relationship work... can ultimately tie the knot with anyone regardless of what you used to demand from a partner... you have total acceptance of your SELF and others.
    Do what? Sounds interesting but the outline is garbled.

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    oh, i just believe that knowing one's type is like the first step to becoming a 'rounded person' in terms of relating to others with little or no effort because the knowledge is so embedded into your mental schema. Maybe it's only useful for myself since i've grown up with non-social friendly functions Ti-Ne where i've had to learn social skills that i excel with much later in life.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Ahh! Okies ^_^

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    Default Re: ESFJs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    .

    Esfj's are not ditsy or shallow. They are focused on people not theories and ideas. They have a firm grasp on social relationships and are motivated by altruism. They have a light touch and a way of making others feel good. They are easy to get along with and easily accept others.

    They would certainly bring balance to an intj who was willing to value their contribution.
    I agree with Blaze on this one. My closest friend is of this type and she is in no way ditsy or shallow. She is bright, exceptionally refined, possesses excellent taste, is very independent, has good business sense and is hard-working. Even though I do not believe that she is the fastest learner ever, she enjoys much success due to steadfast application of herself and just pure diligence. Sure she is always trying to over feed us and is almost obsessive about things like how well her clothes match but to me she is the best friend ever.

    In this odd hard to describe way she has become more like an INTj as she has gotten older. I think if most ESFjs are like her then INTjs are very lucky to have such a dual. I just hope other INTjs do not take ESFjs at face value as there is so much more to them. I could go on and on about their many great qualities.

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    I see...

    I'm 23 going on 24 and i have taken the iniative to be more like my ESFj dual...

    I've extroverted so much against my inherent introversion that i now feel lonely when alone and want company. Solitary pursuits don't hold my attention like they used to.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    duals seem to hate each other until they crash and burn and reform their mental perception in a format that allows for one another. this can be a one way process..

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    I believe it's true that when an ESFj gets older or is introduced to a dual they can start to become more like them. I am an ESFj while my father is an INTj and my mother is an ESFj as well. Me and my mother act similarly, but there are a lot of times that I act just like my dad because I like to be logical, as he has taught me to be. It shows even more when I'm around my mom. It's probably the same way for an INTj in certain situations. It wouldn't suprise me, there is a reason we are duals.

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    I believe it's true that when an ESFj gets older or is introduced to a dual they can start to become more like them. I am an ESFj while my father is an INTj and my mother is an ESFj as well. Me and my mother act similarly, but there are a lot of times that I act just like my dad because I like to be logical, as he has taught me to be. It shows even more when I'm around my mom. It's probably the same way for an INTj in certain situations. It wouldn't suprise me, there is a reason we are duals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    ESFJs... deep?

    How can an ESFJ be anywhere near deep? Don't you need intuition for that?
    Define "deep".
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    implied, your observation is not unreasoned, but it only proves that the dudes in cause don't really studied in depth what sensing and intuition actually means

    so in consequence, the dudes are "shallow" (no offence mates), not the functions

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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu_ baba
    implied, your observation is not unreasoned, but it only proves that the dudes in cause don't really studied in depth what sensing and intuition actually means

    so in consequence, the dudes are "shallow" (no offence mates), not the functions
    I don't know if I'm understanding you right.. but I may agree with you?

    I was thinking along the lines that an intuitive who is more prideful and doesn't try to investigate things further could also be considered shallow as well.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    exactly, Rocky

    is my English that bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by gugu_ baba
    implied, your observation is not unreasoned, but it only proves that the dudes in cause don't really studied in depth what sensing and intuition actually means

    so in consequence, the dudes are "shallow" (no offence mates), not the functions
    I don't know if I'm understanding you right.. but I may agree with you?

    I was thinking along the lines that an intuitive who is more prideful and doesn't try to investigate things further could also be considered shallow as well.
    i think you pretty much said what i was thinking, rocky.

    here's why i object to this:

    sometimes i get the feeling that there are sensors (on this very board!) who refuse to be labeled as sensors, simply because all they've heard is that sensing is "shallow" and "dumb," so they go on it and choose the one that they think people think is more socially acceptable, more attractive, and label themselves as intuitive. that's not a surprise.

    but that doesn't really help anyone figure out their type, does it?
    Yeah - socionics peer pressure.

    And guess what - the sensors outnumber us IRL and they basically run things, so makes sense to try to understand how they think, not make them go undercover as intuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello starshine
    I believe it's true that when an ESFj gets older or is introduced to a dual they can start to become more like them. I am an ESFj while my father is an INTj and my mother is an ESFj as well. Me and my mother act similarly, but there are a lot of times that I act just like my dad because I like to be logical, as he has taught me to be. It shows even more when I'm around my mom. It's probably the same way for an INTj in certain situations. It wouldn't suprise me, there is a reason we are duals.
    And to me, intj's would do well to acquire some esfj qualities.

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    Yeah, like social skills
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    ESFJs... deep?

    How can an ESFJ be anywhere near deep? Don't you need intuition for that?
    Define "deep".
    Bling!: Gold.

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