Generally, (to use your example,) a Ne-LII would get along better--at least, be more on the same page with--a Ti-ILE than a Ne-ILE.Originally Posted by warrior-librarian
For example, in my case, I tend to get along better with Fe-INFps than Ni-INFps. (producing subtype betas > accepting subtype betas.)
Even with corresponding subtypes, I've noticed that the rhythms (j/p) in mirror relationships can cause some problems.
This is probably true.
Mirrors
How well do you get along with mirrors? My sister and I generally get along, but sometimes she drives me absolutely nuts. Like today, I was talking about how my computer is having problems and I might get a new one, so then she emails me a bunch of links to computers that are the best and have good deals, when MY HUSBAND WORKS ON AND BUYS COMPUTERS FOR A LIVING. He works for a large corporation and does computery stuff and buys computery stuff. If we're going to get a computer, he'll chose what we get and where, and he'll know where the deals are. I have no idea why she decides to take over stuff like that for me, but it drives me crazy. It feels controlling, like she's wanting to decide what I get. And when I get one she didn't email me a link to, she'll take it personally, like why wouldn't I get that one.
Another thing she does is she thinks the gas station she goes to is THE BEST and the only place to get gas. And the pizza place by her is THE BEST and the only place to get pizza. And the place she gets her glasses is THE BEST and the only place to get glasses. Etc. I mean really, every single thing, and when I say, I like the place where I got my glasses, she'll try to argue me down as to why the place she goes is THE BEST and the only place in the world anyone should go. She was arguing with me about why I should drive an hour to get my oil changed at this place by her when I have a husband whose hobby it is to fix cars and do that kind of thing. And she just went on and on about it.
I should post this in Delta but my god when she drives me crazy like this I think, "are we really mirrors?" But then we do generally get along. She just should never get started on something. Since I started writing this, she's called me three times about computers she's looked up online I should get. I told her to STOP IT and she got huffy. She is not going to choose my computer for me. IF I GET ONE. I just introduced the idea that I MIGHT get a new one before long.
I swear she has Asperger's syndrome or something.
So, are you ever driven absolutely freaking crazy by your mirror?
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
All I can say is that you've posted things before about your sister and I've never been able to identify with those actions. With this post, now I would really doubt she is EII, and sounds more like an ESI I know. Also, it makes sense that she drives you crazy, that's what siblings are supposed to do.
IEEs don't drive me nuts, it's pretty easy going. The only things that have bothered me a bit is how sometimes they like to talk themselves out of situations, and sometimes dismiss arguments in a rather condescending way when they don't agree with it, even when the argument has good reasoning behind it. But, they definitely don't drive me nuts.
that would drive me crazy too.
Um... I generally like my mirrors, however, I'm not super close to any of them in terms of proximity. My aunt is my mirror and I absolutely love her but if we lived in the same town and had regular interaction, I would probably run for the hills after awhile. One of my best friends from college is EIE and when we started living together, things fell apart. A lot of closeness with one's mirror is probably not a great thing. In general, I feel like EIEs are too overbearing and they expect too much from me and are disappointed continuously when I don't deliver, even if it's just the fact that I don't have a concrete opinion about something. I think they also see me as lazy and I make them feel impatient.
IEI-Fe 4w3
She can't possibly be ESI. She is so fearful of confrontation, can't stand up for herself. My brother is an ESI and I recognize that Ne PoLR and that just isn't her.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
both issues I've seen also with my dad. he's got obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
everything he does/has is THE BEST. and you should buy what he tells you since he is the only one who know everything, he know the truth etc.
also, mirrors are great, except for the 'hot disputes' when discussing.
Alright... I'm just basing it off the pushiness.
It isn't pushy in that way. It's hard to explain. She can be very passive aggressive. She can also just keep bringing something up but if you say something she'll say, "Oh, I'm not telling you what to do, I just think . . ." and keep going on and on. It's more like just not letting a subject die. She's called me twice more.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Oh ok, using the "I'm not telling you what to do" phrase as a front. That's pretty funny, yet annoying, I've had people do that to me as well. I don't think it's a disorder to be that way though, might just be some kind of insecurity issue. I'm trying to remember if I've done that before, but in that sense I'm pretty direct and don't have any desire to control someone's actions... Coincidentally, an example that comes to mind is about computers, and how I tell people that if they are going to buy a computer, they should look into building one themselves because it's easy and cheaper (could save you 100s of dollars), but I doubt that it comes off as controlling. I have a more laissez faire philosophy about things.
About the passive aggressiveness... I tend to see that as an inherent woman trait
uh, NO. lol... some of the best passive-aggressive behavior I've seen has been from men. (SEIs to be specific...)About the passive aggressiveness... I tend to see that as an inherent woman trait
IEI-Fe 4w3
I knew someone wasn't going to agree. Women... *sigh*
well at least I wasn't passive-aggressive about it.I knew someone wasn't going to agree. Women... *sigh*
IEI-Fe 4w3
haha, that's true.well at least I wasn't passive-aggressive about it.
I actually had an EIE roommate that used to do exactly the same thing as your sister. She had a sandwich that was THE BEST. And a brand of pickle that was THE BEST... etc etc etc...
I don't think that's an EII thing in particular. The ones I know don't do anything like that. We get along really well, but too much contact and we can get impatient with each other. I think it might be the rational/irrational thing.
My best friend gets obsessed with her DS... she's slowly turning into a miser, and all she talks about is how she needs to save money. She bought a house she could barely afford, although it's in an excellent stable neighborhood and she got an amazing deal on it, but that made the whole money thing worse. I just wish she'd stop talking about that stuff. Every other word out of her mouth is about coupons.
Anyway, other than that we don't have many quarrels. We have extremely similar viewpoints, but just different enough that we can drive each other nuts. I can't complain, though. She's put up with all kinds of stupid shit from me.
IEE
rotfl
IEI-Fe 4w3
Relations with my mirrors (in my case, INFps) have been, for lack of better words, (mostly) up-and-(w/ periods of dramatic) down.
There are times when mirrors get along extremely well, and are able to empathize with each other to extraordinary degrees. We have similar problems, weltanschauungs, aspirations, and even interests (albeit w/ slightly different foci.) We're able to talk about these easily, and generally have fun/work well with each other.
There are problems though. Mirrors understand similar things slightly differently--they emphasize different aspects of the same thing... And this can lead to frustration w/ each other. (In my case, usually I get frustrated with IEI's PoLR--their lack of Te can make me feel like I'm babysitting... Generally they criticize me for being "arrogant" or "uptight" or over-indulgent.) Periodically, it can lead to contempt.
Mirror relations have an oscillating character. Phases include: (usually) great mutual understanding, leading to slight bafflement w/ each other, leading to internal criticism of each other, leading to seething, leading to incisive, vocal criticism of each other, leading to, finally, bygones are bygones, and all is well again. Repeat.
I've noticed that mirrors often criticize each other hypocritically, for faults each other possess.
These are much more interesting relations, to me, than identical... Mirrors are great if you need sympathy, or if you want someone like you, but not quite... Long-term romantic relationships would be maddening... Worse than semi-duality or mirage in my opinion.
This is how it's gone with me and INFps... My younger brother, my good friend from prep school Jon, and even Nick from here at this forum.
exactly how it went with my friend from college.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Yeah, I guess that's pretty right. We always make up without any issue at all.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
uh, not to drop a bomb here or anything, but how much of this is IEE's Se role function? as in not liking being told what to do or pushed?
i mean i am kind of like this myself having Se in the role position, so i shouldn't talk. but i'm just saying.
*edit* i dont' have this problem with LII's, my mirror. but the temperament and rationality difference with them is enough to cause some frustration. they like to plan plan plan. so much so that you can never get plans with them since they always already have plans. and i like to fly by the seat of my pants. so i don't hang out with them as much as i would like to. they forget about you, too. unless you remind them....then i feel like i'm always the one taking the initiative and wonder what would happen if i didn't. i think LII's think that i don't think deeply enough about things before discussing them. and i get the idea that they want me to comply with social etiquette more than i want to. true to the relational descriptions, i like talking with them more than doing with them, since they do things in a way that i find kinda boring.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
uh, not to drop a bomb here or anything, but how much of this is IEE's Se role function? as in not liking being told what to do or pushed?
i mean i am kind of like this myself having Se in the role position, so i shouldn't talk. but i'm just saying.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Yeah, Se polr does not like being told what to do. Well, "forced" I mean.
Imagine how it would be if everything she mentioned was "the worst." consider yourself lucky to be around a positive person.
On the other hand, you should shop where you want. She would do well to back off. I was cured of this when I told a friend about my great real estate agent. Took her forever to sell his house. I felt bad for having gotten involved.
and gas is gas.
Just tell her how smart your hubby is about such things, and tell her about the DISASTER that happended when you took her advice last time.
ISTp
SLI
Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.
One of my best friends at school is my mirror. We definitely enjoy hanging out together but our friendship is definitely a roller coaster (at least from my perspective). He drives me absolutely crazy with his whimsical changes. We will have plans to do something and when the time comes he doesn't feel like doing it anymore. It's not frustrating all the time but when he just outright cancels stuff it is. Another frustrating aspect is his variable liking of people. He will say he doesnt like someone and then express that he wants to hang out with them. This wouldn't be a problem if I didn't really like the person either. He is just much better able to hang out with people he doesn't like as much I guess. I end up just having to put up spending time with people I don't like. I haven't quite figured out how to resolve this.
Despite the negatives we are definitely good friends. We enjoying hanging out and discussing similar things. We enjoy a lot of the same activities and he is one of my few male friends that I can have more serious discussions with. I find that our opinions coincide on a lot of views such as evaluations of people, what we worry about, how we both suck at being effecient and are way too methodical with out work.
Our friendship didn't really have any issues until we got closer really. It makes sense because of our temperaments, his ability to deal better with Fe, and his attention neediness.
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Having INTj as your mirror is kinda like being that one kid who has that retarded cousin everyone makes fun of.
I feel bad for INTj's, but... sometimes I join in for a laugh.
The end is nigh
nah. well maybe in some cases. i'm waiting in fear of what LII's will say about ILE's in response to your post though...
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
I can sort of relate a bit to your sisters tendency to go back to familiar places. When I find something that is reliable I tend to stick with it. I can definitely see how this can be annoying to Ep's
The one thing I find very bothersome about Ep's is the constant changes in mood, I feel like I have to walk on egg shells around them since I never know how they may be feeling at any given moment. Sometimes they're very chatty, happy-go-lucky, other times very apathetic and draining. Their general lack of reliability is not something I deal with well, it makes me nervous.
IEE's are still one of my favorite types to be around, but they're not the type of people I would want to live with (having an IEE mother). And I would imagine they would find me very boring/stifling over long periods of close-proximity
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Same here, it's hard to hold grudges with my mother. Even after heated arguments we end up making-up, no apologies, it's sort of like we understood why the other was upset and naturally smooth things over
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Honestly, I believe that the 'making up' easily--without any mess or ill-will--is one of the greatest positives of mirror relationships.
(Mirror relationships = Forgiveness b/c of mutual understanding and--is "empathy" the right word?)
Even with duals, I've found, it can take longer for mutual forgiveness... Esp. if your dual happens to be one of the types with elephant's memory, (as mine, ISTj, is.)
Last edited by JuJu; 12-16-2009 at 04:22 AM.
They are awesome like that, remember the nice things you do to them as well.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
I think you may be right, it's probably because mirrors understand one another better, as do identicals, than anyone else.
However I've found that quarreling in dual relations to be, generally, far less likely than mirrors, since you generally don't (naturally) annoy your dual. Whereas with mirrors there tends to be more frustration due to the opposing temperaments
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I wonder... is this not only IEE who have this? I can't remember other Ep's having this. IME ESTp's and ENTp's are always happy, ESFp's most of the time, though the ENFp is indeed often different. either happy and ready for fun, or they are very heavy and emotional, depressed etc. I don't like my IEE friend anymore for that reason, to much complaining about feeling stuff.
Far out. I would never complain about feeling stuff. Not openly and not often. Keep that kinda shit from the surface.
I do once in a while.. primarily if I have nothing to do and get "stuck in my head". That can drag me into depression. That's why I like SLIs so much.
IEE
the IEE complains when the IEE is comfortable in particularly with the person, most times the IEE keeps laments to itself when the IEE himself is healthy. sometimes it is true those close to IEE will become cross with the IEE or will be annoyed because IEE complains about people or their poor relations, this can be point of contention..
could be just IEE as far as getting depressed, but all EP's are erratic, impulsive, and kinda change on a dime. it's due to most of our attention being focused externally, plus irrational, basically letting a lot of things in that fuck with our insides.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
The best kind of chess partner you could ever hope to find is one that loses from you, yet keeps playing and enjoys it. ENTps are like that to us.
LOL
+risk
The end is nigh
I've found it to be a general Ep trait, but I would imagine that moodiness afflicts the Fi creatives a bit more, though for different reasons probably...
I also wonder if gender may play a role in it...
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I went back and read the OP, and in some ways it sounds a little like the mirror puts too much emphasis on your second and sixth functions, and yes, that is a frequent source of annoyance between mirror partners. I would say that of the four in-quadra relations, that's the one that will tend to have the most problems. I generally like EIEs but sometimes I want them to calm down. And I bet sometimes they want me to be less out-there.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
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