ENFps & ISTps: their hidden agendas

[JuJu]

Hi everyone

I'm attempting to gain a greater understanding of type-related hidden agendas, specifically those of ENFps (to know) and ISTps (to love.)

Could anyone give examples re: how these hidden agendas manifest..?

Also, what behaviors/traits or signals give away a person's hidden agenda?

Any insight will be greatly appreciated.... Stories, examples, anything.

[Expat]

I'm attempting to gain a greater understanding of type-related hidden agendas, specifically those of ENFps (to know) and ISTps (to love.)

Could anyone give examples re: how these hidden agendas manifest..?

My views:

Very simplistically:

- "to know": more inclined to acquire knowledge about, and to use, facts and things that can be seen to work in reality, but without worrying much about how they fit together logically. Very common manifestation in my experience: technical salesmen who stuff their presentations with lots of facts and details that are just padding, not really necessary to the points they are making.

- "to love": more inclined to focus on their inner feelings with regard to other individuals than worry about external emotional atmospheres, especially where other people whom they know less are involved. Example: the person who's very warm and friendly to very close individuals, but who can appear cold, "unfriendly" and "too reserved" in a larger group of people he doesn't know well.

Also, what behaviors/traits or signals give away a person's hidden agenda?

An impression that something's "off" or "out of focus". Like the person is trying too hard, or trying to be good at something they're not obviously so.

[JuJu]

Thanks, Expat! That's great, and really helps me.

Regarding the hidden agenda, you write about someone trying to be someting they're not -- and you provide a great example, the technical salesman -- can you think of one for the ISTp? I.e. where the ISTp tries too hard to be something they're not?

Any ISTPs or ENFps out there with examples?

Thanks again everyone

[duality is cringe]

- "to love": more inclined to focus on their inner feelings with regard to other individuals than worry about external emotional atmospheres, especially where other people whom they know less are involved. Example: the person who's very warm and friendly to very close individuals, but who can appear cold, "unfriendly" and "too reserved" in a larger group of people he doesn't know well.

Now this makes sense and is something I can relate to, unlike the 'we' love animals because they'll love us unconditionally and never judge us cliche. Which never applied to me.

- can you think of one for the ISTp? I.e. where the ISTp tries too hard to be something they're not?

Any ISTPs or ENFps out there with examples?

For an ISTp, probably trying to be mr./mrs. people person or 'life of the party' would be noticable as 'forced' or 'off' and might seem disingenuous. Just a suggestion off the top of my head.

[implied]

My views:

Very simplistically:

- "to know": more inclined to acquire knowledge about, and to use, facts and things that can be seen to work in reality, but without worrying much about how they fit together logically. Very common manifestation in my experience: technical salesmen who stuff their presentations with lots of facts and details that are just padding, not really necessary to the points they are making.

- "to love": more inclined to focus on their inner feelings with regard to other individuals than worry about external emotional atmospheres, especially where other people whom they know less are involved. Example: the person who's very warm and friendly to very close individuals, but who can appear cold, "unfriendly" and "too reserved" in a larger group of people he doesn't know well.

i like these. they're quite simple but really very good.

[Park]

- "to love": more inclined to focus on their inner feelings with regard to other individuals than worry about external emotional atmospheres, especially where other people whom they know less are involved. Example: the person who's very warm and friendly to very close individuals, but who can appear cold, "unfriendly" and "too reserved" in a larger group of people he doesn't know well.

Right on!

[Park]

Also, what behaviors/traits or signals give away a person's hidden agenda?

As an ISTp I like to talk about my inner feelings (about things and people) and I always spot and make friends with people whom I can trust, confide, and open up to. My relationships with certain people mean much more to me than it may appear (to them or anyone). I also tend to nurture friendships with people who don't feel the same about me (and hang out with me just because of certain practical benefits) which is a bad thing because it can lead to great disappointments sometimes.

With strangers I am very careful and calculate every word I say. I never answer personal questions when I am unaware of people's motives.

[Expat]

That's a very good example.

Fi hidden agenda: an inclination to overestimate their ability to evaluate other people's character. The ISTp is vulnerable to falling in the trap of thinking that he's sure that a friend of his is a good guy, even as other friends see that the friend is an asshole, and the ISTp getting angry with his friends for trying to warn him.

A disastrous example of this in history, if anyone's curious: the relationship between the emperor Tiberius (ISTp) and his right-hand man, Sejanus.

Or, more relevant to Americans: President Grant (ISTp) and the people close to him whom he refused to believe were corrupt.

[Park]

Another thing which might be related to my HA is the fact that I have a natural tendency to protect and aid people, especially the ones I like, thus showing them my "love". And those who 'd accept and appreciate this and act in my defense when I am in trouble have the more chances of creating a bond with me.

[Expat]

This works the other way around too, right?.....like the ISTp thinks someone is a "bad" person. And it's set in stone - non-negotiable.

Sure, but I'd guess that's more likely to be observed in INTps than ISTps. The Gamma/Delta distinction. not .

[Park]

This works the other way around too, right?.....like the ISTp thinks someone is a "bad" person. And it's set in stone - non-negotiable.

Yes, especially if the person keeps acting like a jerk giving no reason for the ISTp to change his mind. And other people can work their asses off to convince him he's wrong but the ISTp won't listen.

You can never be as resistant as an ISTp can.

[Expat]

Another example --

The ISTp or INTp taking a stand on principle against everyone else's opinion, when the Fi dominants, ISFj or INFj, while agreeing in principle, would see it as counter-productive and advise the IXTp to be more flexible. The reply is usually, "I gotta do what I gotta do".

[Park]

advise the IXTp to be more flexible.

Hah! My mom always tells me I gotta learn to be more flexible and elastic. And I am like wtf am I really that "inflexible".

[Rubicon]

I still don't understand the ENFp's hidden agenda. I mean I get the whole 'needing to know' thing ... but it seems to me that they're pretty successful at it. The ones I know seem to know something about everything - whether it be useless information or otherwise. Can an ENFp 'out there' explain to me how this is a sore spot for you?

thanks

[meatburger]

I still don't understand the ENFp's hidden agenda. I mean I get the whole 'needing to know' thing ... but it seems to me that they're pretty successful at it. The ones I know seem to know something about everything - whether it be useless information or otherwise. Can an ENFp 'out there' explain to me how this is a sore spot for you?

thanks

hmm.. Im quite ravenous in my search for information a lot of the time. Like for example i wanted to know the simple question "does a beer actually hydrate you or not?" due to an argument i had with someone. I searched for probablly over an hour reading stuff here and there. If i recall i found some information that said that yes a beer does hydrate you overall, just not a great deal. The guy writing it seemed knowledgeable and used impirical evidence etc. Still to this day i dont trust that knowledge though. In fact im ready for expat or someone to tell me if its true or not. I think the person i was arguing with was taking the whole "alcohol dehydrates you" thing literally and i wasn't sure if i should or not due to beers water content.

HAHA as a pefect example of what i mean if you read this thread i just found there is so much conflicting information. There seems to be some informed people in there and i dont know who to believe!

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=738100

EDIT: And to be honest my Intuition tells me that what the first guy wrote as informed as he sounds must be wrong. Because im not joking i drink a butt load of soft drink and barely any water and im not dead.

I also find that i have an attrocious memory. I tend to learn things really fast but forget them even faster. So when someone asks me how many billion years has the earth been around for, i will always kick myself for not knowing. (just looked it up 4.58 billion years)

[Rubicon]

hmm.. Im quite ravenous in my search for information a lot of the time. Like for example i wanted to know the simple question "does a beer actually hydrate you or not?" due to an argument i had with someone. I searched for probablly over an hour reading stuff here and there. If i recall i found some information that said that yes a beer does hydrate you overall, just not a great deal. The guy writing it seemed knowledgeable and used impirical evidence etc. Still to this day i dont trust that knowledge though. In fact im ready for expat or someone to tell me if its true or not. I think the person i was arguing with was taking the whole "alcohol dehydrates you" thing literally and i wasn't sure if i should or not due to beers water content.

HAHA as a pefect example of what i mean if you read this thread i just found there is so much conflicting information. There seems to be some informed people in there and i dont know who to believe!

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=738100

EDIT: And to be honest my Intuition tells me that what the first guy wrote as informed as he sounds must be wrong. Because im not joking i drink a butt load of soft drink and barely any water and im not dead.

I also find that i have an attrocious memory. I tend to learn things really fast but forget them even faster. So when someone asks me how many billion years has the earth been around for, i will always kick myself for not knowing. (just looked it up 4.58 billion years)

Thanks - that makes the concept a bit clearer for me.

Btw, from what I've read/heard, beer may initially hydrate you (being that it obviously contains water), but it will eventually dehydrate you ... sort of like drinking salt water - it just goes straight you and takes extra water from your cells with it.

Sorry - couldn't resist

[jewels]

hmm...first I was thinking "I really don't think this HA of needing 'to know'" applies to me, because I just don't care about "facts" and don't remember most facts anyway. But then, after reading your post, I had this strong urge to mention that I've read that each glass of coffee or alcohal dehydrates you by that same sized glass, so you have to drink an extra glass of water just to make up for it -- AND then it hit me! Wow, that must be the HA talking...

hmm.. Im quite ravenous in my search for information a lot of the time. Like for example i wanted to know the simple question "does a beer actually hydrate you or not?" due to an argument i had with someone. I searched for probablly over an hour reading stuff here and there. If i recall i found some information that said that yes a beer does hydrate you overall, just not a great deal. The guy writing it seemed knowledgeable and used impirical evidence etc. Still to this day i dont trust that knowledge though. In fact im ready for expat or someone to tell me if its true or not. I think the person i was arguing with was taking the whole "alcohol dehydrates you" thing literally and i wasn't sure if i should or not due to beers water content.

HAHA as a pefect example of what i mean if you read this thread i just found there is so much conflicting information. There seems to be some informed people in there and i dont know who to believe!

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=738100

EDIT: And to be honest my Intuition tells me that what the first guy wrote as informed as he sounds must be wrong. Because im not joking i drink a butt load of soft drink and barely any water and im not dead.

I also find that i have an attrocious memory. I tend to learn things really fast but forget them even faster. So when someone asks me how many billion years has the earth been around for, i will always kick myself for not knowing. (just looked it up 4.58 billion years)

[schrödinger's cat]

I wonder if it might be a little hard for us to integrate our bits of knowledge into a plausible whole. The HA, that's the effect of our 6th combined with our rickety 4th function? That would mean that we can use Te, so we do "know something about everything", but it's kind of harder to get a whole picture of things?

In my case it's not so much "knowledge" in the classical sense - learning school stuff or getting information about something from newspapers. I'm alright with that, and I've never heard any complaints. What's difficult is the kind of knowledge about what I see around me, especially when it concerns people. It's like reality is shaped like a huge diamond. Some facets are bright, some dark, some are red, some blue, some dirty, some clean... You can only look at and describe each facet in turn, but when you're asked what colour the whole thing is, you're stumped. Everything is different depending on what angle you look at it from.

[Rubicon]

hmm...first I was thinking "I really don't think this HA of needing 'to know'" applies to me, because I just don't care about "facts" and don't remember most facts anyway. But then, after reading your post, I had this strong urge to mention that I've read that each glass of coffee or alcohal dehydrates you by that same sized glass, so you have to drink an extra glass of water just to make up for it -- AND then it hit me! Wow, that must be the HA talking...

ha ha - beat you to it

[meatburger]

ha ha - beat you to it

Hehe see good thread. Its not something ive thought about for years. I agree exactly what you said SC about the 6th combined with the Rickety 4th. And dont also forget the hyperactive 1st aswell.

Like my Ne makes me very indescisive and gives me strange possibilities. Like your idea about the water. I think to myself but if im in a desert and ive got a full tummy of water and only James Squire, should i drink it or not then? Would my body decide not to piss as it knows im running on empty? And my Ti cant work its way through my problem hehe. I mean i seriously defy the laws of nature then as i barely just drink a bland drink of water.

Another funny example is my dad said to me "sea water has healing properties". (which i thought to myself) as i noticed my back pimples cleared up when i went in the water. So i mention this to my ESTj friend and he said "well actually the sea is a primordial soup of bacteria and has a high chance of infection". I explained the pimples and hes like the salt could dry out them perhaps or it could even be the sunlight doing it. i was like.

AHHHHHHHHH

Then i got home and my mums like well on Foyles war they found the people who were burnt jumping out of planes were found to heal much faster if they landed in the sea. and im like

[Rubicon]

Hehe see good thread. Its not something ive thought about for years. I agree exactly what you said SC about the 6th combined with the Rickety 4th. And dont also forget the hyperactive 1st aswell.

Like my Ne makes me very indescisive and gives me strange possibilities. Like your idea about the water. I think to myself but if im in a desert and ive got a full tummy of water and only James Squire, should i drink it or not then? Would my body decide not to piss as it knows im running on empty? And my Ti cant work its way through my problem hehe. I mean i seriously defy the laws of nature then as i barely just drink a bland drink of water. Im sure ive got smashed the night before and then drank just soda the whole next day.

Another funny example is my dad said to me "sea water has healing properties". (which i thought to myself) as i noticed my back pimples cleared up when i went in the water. So i mention this to my ESTj friend and he said "well actually the sea is a primordial soup of bacteria and has a high chance of infection". I explained the pimples and hes like the salt could dry out them perhaps or it could even be the sunlight doing it. i was like.

AHHHHHHHHH

Then i got home and my mums like well on Foyles war they found the people who were burnt jumping out of planes were found to heal much faster if they landed in the sea. and im like

My experience is that seawater is a great skin-healer

funny ... your thing about hydration and the seawater thing makes me want to research both topics (am I a nerd? ) ... Maybe my HA 'to understand' manifests itself in a similar way to yours ...

[meatburger]

My experience is that seawater is a great skin-healer

funny ... your thing about hydration and the seawater thing makes me want to research both topics (am I a nerd? ) ... Maybe my HA 'to understand' manifests itself in a similar way to yours ...

Haha. "To understand" seems more along the lines of it actually. Well actually it all boils down to me not thinking about it clearly with Ti. With the Burning example i then returned that to my ESTj friend and he said "well heat is retained in the skin for 20 mins" or something like that so if they fell from the plane into the water their burn would not be as bad. Nothing to do with salt water etc. And i was like "fuckkkkk your right!"

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I would imagine that sea water would be good for the skin. It's full of trace minerals and the salt should have a certain antibacterial property. With it's high mineral concentration, the dead see his famous for it's skin healing properties. Osmosis maybe? Re burns: this and the cold water drawing the heat out of the burns?

The only time i'd imagine sea water being full of toxins is places were the local government decide its a good idea to pump their waste into the sea.

Maybe you guys could look it up and let me know

[Rubicon]

Haha. Well actually it all boils down to me not thinking about it clearly with Ti. With the Burning example i then returned that to my ESTj friend and he said "well heat is retained in the skin for 20 mins" or something like that so if they fell from the plane into the water their burn would not be as bad. Nothing to do with salt water etc. And i was like "fuckkkkk your right!"

Oh - yeah, that makes sense

[Rubicon]

I would imagine that sea water would be good for the skin. It's full of trace minerals and the salt should have a certain antibacterial property. With it's high mineral concentration, the dead see his famous for it's skin healing properties. Osmosis maybe? Re burns: this and the cold water drawing the heat out of the burns?
The only time i'd imagine sea water being full of toxins is places were the local government decide its a good idea to pump their waste into the sea.

Enter the Encyclopedia ...

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Enter the Encyclopedia ...

lol! How goes it with you Hope your staying IN trouble hehe

[meatburger]

I would imagine that sea water would be good for the skin. It's full of trace minerals and the salt should have a certain antibacterial property. With it's high mineral concentration, the dead see his famous for it's skin healing properties. Osmosis maybe? Re burns: this and the cold water drawing the heat out of the burns?

The only time i'd imagine sea water being full of toxins is places were the local government decide its a good idea to pump their waste into the sea.

Maybe you guys could look it up and let me know

<3

Well WikiAnswers an awesome source of reliable info says this

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_sea_wa...east_infection

[Rubicon]

lol! How goes it with you Hope your staying IN trouble hehe

Did I say I was in trouble?

[xyz]

ENFps really like knowing stuff like this? Cuz I gotta buncha crap stored in here that could be let out on someone

[Rubicon]

I'm getting outa here ...

[Creepy-Cyclops]

<3

Well WikiAnswers an awesome source of reliable info says this

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_sea_wa...east_infection

Mm..put this maybe in the minus column for my gender change pros and cons?!

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I'm getting outa here ...

No stay..your input is of value to us!

[Rubicon]

No stay..your input is of value to us!

aw shucks - you think so?

[Expat]

I wonder if it might be a little hard for us to integrate our bits of knowledge into a plausible whole. The HA, that's the effect of our 6th combined with our rickety 4th function? That would mean that we can use Te, so we do "know something about everything", but it's kind of harder to get a whole picture of things?

I don't think it's exactly the effect of the two, it's just the 6th, but I think it "stands out" more precisely because of the PoLR. So, ENFps have weak Te and weak Ti, but because they want to be strong in Te, and Ti is so weak, the Te>Ti preference is very visible.

In my case it's not so much "knowledge" in the classical sense - learning school stuff or getting information about something from newspapers. I'm alright with that, and I've never heard any complaints. What's difficult is the kind of knowledge about what I see around me, especially when it concerns people. It's like reality is shaped like a huge diamond. Some facets are bright, some dark, some are red, some blue, some dirty, some clean... You can never see all facets at once (...duh). You can look at and describe each facet in turn, but when you're asked what colour the whole thing is, you're stumped. (Naturally.) Everything is different depending on what angle you look at it from.

Example: being asked how I'm doing from people who really want to know. The answer depends on how I am at that present moment. Now the problem is: when I'm with people, I'm usually fine. That's like shining a light through a stained-glass church window. Even the darker colours and the dirty corners look bright and nice. So my answer will be more positive than it should be. -- When I'm worried, there's a tendency to focus on that exclusively and to blow it out of all proportions, because this facet of reality is all I see at the moment and I've lost sight of the other, positive bits.

That all sounds like the Si dual-seeking, rather than the Te HA.

[schrödinger's cat]

You're right. I deleted it because I realized it was a bad example.

The general idea is applicable to other scenarios though. Just this difficulty to take all the snippets of information and wallop them together into a coherent whole. It's kind of a stab in the dark though; I've no idea whether this is "typical" or just me. My guess would've been that this difficulty is like an itch I need to scratch, hence the need to know.

[Slacker]

Being a hidden agenda, it's probably hard for us to see.

I do seek out information. If I see a movie about some subject or another, sometimes it'll set me off on this quest for knowledge and for a few days I'll become ravenous for information about that specific subject. I'll search on the internet, I'll go to the library and check out books, and I'll read and read and read. I will try to learn everything about whatever the subject is.

But then something else comes up and I start wondering about a different subject, and I move on to something else, so I never actually learn that much about anything.

But the desire is there.

[tereg]

I have a lot of thoughts about this topic. I wanted to post something last night, but had other things on my mind. Anyways, I will post something later.

[Slacker]

As far as ISTps go, my husband has one quirk that might be relevant. Usually, on weekends, he likes to tinker in the garage. So generally I come up with something for me and our daughter to do. But sometimes he decides he wants to spend the day with us, and if I've made other plans I have to break them (unless it's like a child's birthday who would be disappointed - he'd work around something where someone - particularly a child - would be hurt). Anyway, unless it's something really important, he NEEDS to spend the time with us, and he needs to know that he is the favorite and that we'd rather spend time with him than doing something else. On these days, we go out for breakfast and come up with all sorts of ideas of what we could do, and then we'll settle one something and get to it after we finish eating. Our daughter delights in these days and calls them "family days". He gets lots of adoration from her when he spends a weekend day with us. She's ENFp too and I think he gets more of what he needs on those days from her than me.

[emeye]

Being a hidden agenda, it's probably hard for us to see.

I do seek out information. If I see a movie about some subject or another, sometimes it'll set me off on this quest for knowledge and for a few days I'll become ravenous for information about that specific subject. I'll search on the internet, I'll go to the library and check out books, and I'll read and read and read. I will try to learn everything about whatever the subject is.

But then something else comes up and I start wondering about a different subject, and I move on to something else, so I never actually learn that much about anything.

But the desire is there.

I think "hidden" is more of a figure of speech; the underlying motivation, so to say.

Looking at your example, I am just the same, but it does not bother me too much, knowing that I don't know everything--after all, nobody can know everything. Whereas, it does seem to bother you.

Similar to my personal "get rich" hidden agenda: I know I'm doing relatively fine, probably better than most people, but it just bothers me that it might not be good enough.

In other words, "hidden agenda" is not hidden at all, especially not from the person troubled/driven by it.

[JuJu]

This works the other way around too, right?.....like the ISTp thinks someone is a "bad" person. And it's set in stone - non-negotiable.

Do ISTps doubt whether they made the right judgements about people..? For example, do they ever reconsider someone after deciding whether a person is good or bad -- is the decision set-in-stone or does it just take time for them to reach a new understanding..?

Any ISTp perspectives on this will be greatly appreciated.