IEI-IEE extinguishment relations (contrary INFp & ENFp)

[redbaron]

So I really think that it comes down to sub-types.

ENFp (Fi) with INFp (Ni) = Good!
ENFp (Fi) with INFp (Fe) = Bad

Fi ENFp and Ni INFp I think does well, because the INFp seems quieter, more serious and less emotionally expressive (though they are still warm of course) -- basically, they seem much closer to an ISTp, without the typical barriers to duality. And the ENFp Fi is more talkative and open sooner (vs. the ENFp Ne).

However, Fi ENFp with Fe INFp is horrible in my opinion. There is so much Fe bouncing around (between the INFp creating that and the ENFp attempting to use fake Fe (as we aren't bad at faking it), so there is no balance. F is flying all over the place.

It makes me wonder if Ne ENFp would then get along beter with Fe INFp??

What do you guys think? Agree? Disagree?

well, it's interesting. I have tried messing around with subtypes a bit in terms of thinking why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. You may be on to something. But ultimatly, there are so many other factors that would matter more than subtypes, that it's next to impossible to isolate the subtype factor alone.

I know what you mean about F flying around. I'm married to ESFj-Fe and a good friend of mine is ISFp (Si) but when he lets loose with the Fe, it's ridiculous! I mean in a good way for being friends, but with the husband it can be overload at times. EVERYONE in our family is Fe base or creative. It's... a lot.

[golden]

Machine translation with patchy, fast attempts by me to clarify. Brackets used liberally to indicate possible misinterpretation.

IEI-IEE interrelation
V. Gulenko.
Description Socionics types and intertype relationships.

Repayment [“extinguishment”]

Entering into dialogue, the partners are drawn into debate, during which they feel comfortable. They actively express opinions, make more restrained comments on them, introduce amendments. Their behavioral styles appeal to each other, causing a pleasant surprise, leading them to think of the other as having original thinking. However, in the presence of third parties the interaction [“pays off”—not sure what this means here, as it sounds positive but that may be the opposite of what Gulenko means. –Golden], allowing each partner to attempt to develop a mutually interesting idea, which the other can challenge. Each partner achieves the same goal in different ways. These paths do not interfere with each other: the competition takes place only in the discussion.

Recommendations for the consolidation of the pair

Comfort in these relations can be achieved by communicating in a narrow circle of friends or associates. When bystanders are [paying off], you can challenge each other’s views without major arguments. Knowingly accept criticism of each other. Benefit from it--your ideas become more realistic in the light of criticism from [pogasitelya].

Engage your partner when you need to critically evaluate or make a forecast of your projects. Do not wait for his active participation in the implementation of your plans. Collaboration of a technological nature will proceed very slowly and in a strict scheme.

[If the relationship leads to problems, do not sort it out emotionally. ???] Give each other time to be alone, and then resume the relationship as if nothing had happened. The new information you receive will give much food for thought.

Discharge periodically accumulated anger over [nezlobnye] jokes. From time to time, have a delicious feast with your favorite foods and drinks. Treat each other with folk remedies. [Lolol @ folk remedies, although in fact the two ENFp women I've been close to did just this for me! –G] Combine your ideas to put them to practical use, rather than to try to ascertain the truth. Find answers to your questions in the experience of the past.

- - - - - - -

[And another perspective, from Filatova …]

Yesenin-Huxley [IEI-IEE]

Yesenin talks about his relationship with Huxley:

My younger sister and I have five years’ difference in age. Between us we often have quarrels. It seems that I'm trying to teach her to live her life my way, but she does not like it. Recently she told me how, together with a classmate, she went to visit a boy. He put in a cassette to play music, and the girls [were making conversation ???] and drinking tea.

On the table [he had served them] a [sea-buckthorn] jam, but the girls went to the refrigerator to help themselves to another jam [Ranetok jam]. This story is [typical of] my sister, [not terribly much]; I started to explain to her that one does not behave that way, that it is ugly. She [nedoslushala], turned sharply, and left ...

Often we have conflicts due to the fact that the room is a mess. [It is difficult for me to maintain a constant state of cleanliness on my own,] although it would be desirable. If I start cleaning, [I have to] insist that my sister put her things in place. She does not like it. We [try to] compromise, but more often [we still end up] quarreling.

During the week I live in a dorm, and on Sunday I come home. [As soon as I enter] the apartment, [my sister greets me with] a verbal barrage of the stories she has accumulated all week: her wide eyes burn, her hands gesticulate frantically ... I cannot withstand this pressure and go from our room to the kitchen, to be with our mother. I feel guilty, and my sister is, of course, offended. However, she soon forgets the offense and runs quickly to inform me of the next news item she has just remembered. Then I force myself to hold back and listen very carefully, even if I've already heard this "news" from her several times. After that, our relations improve, until the next rift ...


[Filatova comments:] Here you can see two main causes of conflict. Firstly, a huge difference in the level of energy. Sister (Huxley) has, apparently, a strong temperament, [compared to the] dreamy and depressive, [lower-energy] Esenina. Secondly, [regarding cleaning] the room, [this falls into the area of] business logic [Te] for Esenina, her "pain" function [PoLR], where she needs support, but here she cannot find it, because her partner, in this case, also has this as a weak feature! Restless Huxley, of course, is bored by the cleaning, and [in this instance is also] the youngest child in the family, so apparently, [cleaning is something she is] not accustomed to.

[Suz]

wow golden!!! How did u find these??? I didn't know such descriptions existed!

oh, and MMMMM sea buckthorn jam!!!

[KeroZen]

Hey Golden, it seems you'll have to post more of this stuff now that you started!

[golden]

It's from a Russian socionics forum where seemingly endless amounts of material can be found. There are descriptions like this of all the specific intertype relations, very interesting. Take a look:

http://www.socioforum.su/index.php?s...d24dd3b0752c68

And what I especially appreciate is that some of the information I'm reading, like the Gulenko here, gives advice on how to manage the relationship. Very helpful and exactly what I've been after.

Sorry that it's such a rough version of the machine translation. I don't really have time to go into dictionaries at the moment to iron out a lot of things.

[ashlesha]

hey cool find, thanks

[Beautiful sky]

Good find!! Now, you can practice with Mariella

[Suz]

I thought the fact that descriptions of different types' relations was interesting at first, but tbh i'm not finding anything useful in that description. Too vague and can be understood in many different ways.

[Aleksei]

http://www.socioforum.su/index.php?s...d24dd3b0752c68

Instructions for people whom the Google translation bar has betrayed/abandoned at this crucial juncture like moi :

1) Plug that link into Google Search
2) Click "translate this page"
3) Browse at your leisure.

You're welcome.

[redbaron]

How is that likely to go, romantically?

[Kim]

In my case, it was always very exciting initially, but the IEI constant push and pull was very hard. I could never be sure about their current state of mind about me. Sometimes they (I dated two) would make me feel like I am the cat's meow and literally a day later they would retreat in some form.

I also often wanted to feed them Te as in "if you are so frustrated/depressed about situation a, why don't you do B/C, etc?" In other words, I wanted to give practical advice based on their potential, but they never seemed to care, which threw me off totally.

On the other hand, when I was depressed or frustrated, they would start what I called philosophizing, which didn't help at all. I wanted ice cream or solid advice.

In good times, it was amazing and fun and magical, but it could also be very frustrating. But then I was in my early 20s and obviously knew nothing of socionics, so I could see it go better now.

[Singu]

It's not type-related, but the reason that he simply shrugs his shoulder and let it slide after you've given him advice is because he is feeling hopeless, he is feeling hopeless about himself and the ability to change things, so he thinks that he won't gain much from doing anything, anyway (it's better to not try than to try and fail). So if you wanted to, you can keep pushing the issue until he starts to see truth about himself and the situation (if you want to get better then you'd have to put in some effort into changing yourself), which will make him feel less hopeless about himself, and he will start to change his attitude, and do things on his own (instead of letting "others" or "fate" take care of him). So it's not merely the difference between Te and Ti... but rather it's just the um, strict cause-and-effect relations in psychic matters. As long as we feel hopeless about something, then we won't see any gain from doing anything. Or as long as we cling tenaciously to the belief that we will be glorious and things will magically get better sometime in the vague point in the future, then it doesn't matter much how much we actually suffer in the moment, etc.

[crazedrat]

Yeah I agree. There was this one ENFp-Fi girl I wanted to bone for a while.

[redbaron]

I feel like I have about FIVE really good IEE friends. And I don't know how this came to be. Like, they're my close friends too. I wonder if a combination of same club and then irrationality sort of draws us together?

So in your experience is it easy to be friends with your extinguishment relation? (or maybe it's because my mother is IEE and I'm used to them??)

[Simon Ssmall]

No I don't consider it easy. It is nice at the start though. After that it takes quite a strain and I tend to avoid them. Doesn't mean it would be like that with every IEI I meet. All in all, normal people get along with normal people, regardless of types.

[Simon Ssmall]

Also how many people you would call really good friends? I can number such people on one hand, so I wonder what you mean by "really good".

[redbaron]

No I don't consider it easy. It is nice at the start though. After that it takes quite a strain and I tend to avoid them. Doesn't mean it would be like that with every IEI I meet. All in all, normal people get along with normal people, regardless of types.

No. I'm talking about CLOSE friends here! Like two of my best friends. People I get along with very well and feel safe with and share lots of details of my life with. I feel fairly certain I have them typed correctly. There's a small possibility one of them might be SEI but probably not. Normal people get along with normal people but do they develop close friendships? I dunno.

socionics sucks.

[Slacker]

I have a couple of IEI friends, but we have a hard time keepign things going and we end up losing touch. Most of my friends are alpha SFs, and then SEEs would probably be second. Maybe Delta NFs would be second. But anyway, Alpha SFs are first.

[golden]

Come be EIE, married to your Kindred, friends with your Quasis.

[redbaron]

Also how many people you would call really good friends? I can number such people on one hand, so I wonder what you mean by "really good".

Really good as in: I spent 8 years of my life with one of these women, talking to her once per week for 5 hours straight (we got together to knit every week and we'd talk late into the night). The other one, we had a lot of parenting topics in common but she's been a GREAT friend to me while going through some hard things like her son being very sick and now my marriage being rocky, etc. Really good as in sharing some of life's big issues and being there for each other and understanding each other.

[redbaron]

Come be EIE, married to your Kindred, friends with your Quasis.

LOL there you go! Sometimes I wonder... If I were EIE, all my intertype relations would still make sense. Not sure it matters if I'm IEI or EIE in the end. Like I said, socionics sucks anyway.

[Simon Ssmall]

No. I'm talking about CLOSE friends here! Like two of my best friends. People I get along with very well and feel safe with and share lots of details of my life with. I feel fairly certain I have them typed correctly. There's a small possibility one of them might be SEI but probably not. Normal people get along with normal people but do they develop close friendships? I dunno.

socionics sucks.

Maybe you are ISFp? Just a thought, I'm not typing you.

[redbaron]

I have a couple of IEI friends, but we have a hard time keepign things going and we end up losing touch. Most of my friends are alpha SFs, and then SEEs would probably be second. Maybe Delta NFs would be second. But anyway, Alpha SFs are first.

or alternatively, maybe I'm alpha SF.

[silke]

IEEs are just incredibly easy to talk to. They initiate conversations and can talk just about anything and everything. Plus the have that certain warmth to them even though it is Fi rather than Fe. Most of the friends I've had I typed as NFs after learning about functions, which means I've been having quasi-id, extinguishment, and mirror friendships.

[redbaron]

IEEs are just incredibly easy to talk to. They initiate conversations and can talk just about anything and everything. Plus the have that certain warmth to them even though it is Fi rather than Fe. Most of the friends I've had I typed as NFs after learning about functions, which means I've been having quasi-id, extinguishment, and mirror friendships.

yep, I agree!

[ragnar]

I feel like I have about FIVE really good IEE friends.

I had to check the self-typing lists on wikisocion, for some reason I've always thought you self-typed as delta.

Anyway, I think IEEs are maybe the "friendliest" type around. And the Contrary relation may be quite good for voluntary association when both have the maturity and the interpersonal skills necessary to benefit from it.

I think I know several both IEI-IEE and ILI-ILE fairly close connections from RL.

[Jarno]

IEE are sometimes a bit clingy with friends?

[redbaron]

IEE are sometimes a bit clingy with friends?

I dunno if clingy is the right word, but they definitely do a lot to keep the friendship going. I suppose these friendships aren't ones I'd pursue very hard if it were up to me. But they make it very easy. I tend to be lazy that way. My other good friend is IEI-Fe and she almost always does the initiating between us. I do think it has something to do with the NF club also. I mean, even if you're prefer Ne and Fi, you're still gonna be good at Ni and Fe, and understand it to a degree.

And, most SLEs are so busy with businesses or whatnot that I find it very hard to cross paths with them, usually.

[Suz]

Redbaron, this is an interesting trend...we've had a bunch of great heart-to-hearts as well...

I wonder if it could have something to do with you having been raised by an IEE mother? Or maybe you being harmonizing subtype?

I definitely feel that interrelating with you is different from interrelating with a lot of other IEIs here. So i dont know... maybe you aren't IEI?

[Galen]

Because we're *everywhere*

[Atlas]

It really is like they say "The adult part of one is interacting with the rebel teenager of the other person" (and vice versa). It's like we want to talk about the same things but, for one person, the "normal" way to approach the topic sounds too intimate (or obvious) to the other person. Being a heterosexual man, when I talk with males IEI (after some time) it seems like they are always correcting me and being picky (and they think the same about me). When it is with a female IEI it looks like they are challenging me and flirting at the same time. It's just my perception. I think they feel the same about me. In reality that is how it looks but not what actualy is the real intention.

[Atlas]

Here goes MY perception of A LOT of conversations I (as an ENFp) had with INFps:
We all are very interested in philosophy, feelings, people and society. BUT, IEE looks at philosophy as an open topic of conversation where people should feel free to explore in a casual conversation. At the same time we give a lot of importance to ours and others feelings. But for us, conversations about feelings are more personal and private.
Am I wrong to conclude that for IEI is the other way arround? Feelings are ok to talk about in a normal conversation and explore but when it comes to philosophy and views about society it is a personal and private topic that is not so confortable to explore in a casual conversation.

Am I wrong? This is my experience and conclusion (and, obviously the diferent mentality when it comes to planning/organize etc.)

[wasp]

I read somewhere that intuitives can maintain neutral/pleasant relations with "incompatible" types longer than sensors, so it'd be tamer than most extinguishment relations, which would be tamed even further by the fact that they belong to the humanitarian club. IEE and IEI are all about managing psychological distance (being intuitives first and ethicals second, they're objectively the "best") so if issues ever do arise, they'd probably fester for a long time before either side took it upon themselves to directly confront the other side. "ghosting" and "passive-aggression" were what first came to mind because they'd probably employ indirect tactics to air out their personal grievances, but there'd be a sophisticated veneer of diplomacy at every turn.

this process would accelerate in group settings where these relations are most prone to conflict. they can have fantastic conversations in private because they have shared interests, hobbies, and values, but they have two polar-opposite methods to implementing those values. it'd resemble a quadra clash where the beta quadra is very much collectivist, even "hive-minded" at times, whereas the delta quadra is more scattered and independent.

if someone is seeking advice, both types will share their input because that is their area of expertise, but if the advice-seeker prioritizes one type's advice over the other type's advice, then it may instill feelings of inferiority into the type that wasn't chosen. it's like an unsolicited competition, but it's the natural byproduct of being similar on the surface while being wildly different underneath. over time it may happen that the group prioritizes one over the other, which is hurtful insofar that one of them will be deprived of opportunities to share their equally valid input because someone else does it better.

[Bertrand]

(being intuitives first and ethicals second, they're objectively the "best")

so true

[wasp]

so true

I have an irrational fear of the emoji

[Bertrand]

d e a l w i t h i t

[Rebelondeck]

Here goes MY perception of A LOT of conversations I (as an ENFp) had with INFps:
We all are very interested in philosophy, feelings, people and society. BUT, IEE looks at philosophy as an open topic of conversation where people should feel free to explore in a casual conversation. At the same time we give a lot of importance to ours and others feelings. But for us, conversations about feelings are more personal and private.
Am I wrong to conclude that for IEI is the other way arround? Feelings are ok to talk about in a normal conversation and explore but when it comes to philosophy and views about society it is a personal and private topic that is not so confortable to explore in a casual conversation.

Am I wrong? This is my experience and conclusion (and, obviously the diferent mentality when it comes to planning/organize etc.)

INFps seem to hold sacred what they have come to believe as true and will defend it whereas ENFps seem to treat most information as temporary or replaceable and often like playing the devil's advocate. Oddly, ENFps seem to have a more self-righteous nature. An ENFp may try to breach an INFp's castle but this is not necessarily unhealthy because the INFp will see the game and easily roll with it. It can be a good learning experience for both in small doses. On impersonal stuff, they can work well together....
a.k.a. I/O

[applejacks]

Strangely the IEI is one of the most illusive relationships to me. I desperately desire to close the gap in my personal distance to them, but I find myself having constant barriers to do so.

This thread has been helpful. I'd appreciate additional insight on how to love my fellow IEIs better.

The ones that I've known have seemed so fragile emotionally, or at least emotionally sensitive, that I've done everything in my power to walk to consciously not cast any judgment upon them. But I think they can somehow sense that I'm analyzing and trying to put together a picture in my mind, and often it's as if they're reading between the lines so much that they miss my desire to be both sincere and careful in my words.

My sister is an IEI, along with one of my closest friends. I have learned to not let them talk me into any more wild ideas, like buying swimming pools for our backyard, or random road trips. We truly would be broke. It's the things in them that I see in myself that drive me crazy, and when I step back and observe my life and its faults first, I can usually find grace to not pick on them about their messy room, or make comments fishing to understand if there's a lack of work ethic. This mostly bothers me when my IEI is constantly coming to me to do things for her.

My memories as a child with my sister are wonderful, though. We made the most creative and clever games, from riding yellow Fisher Price roller skates across the kitchen floor with a microwave timer, to creating our own Olympic Games in our living room. My IEI sister always had the idea, and I'd always be willing to jump in.

I can see how the aristocratic nature of the IEE would bother the IEI. Thanks, socionics, for revealing my self righteous nature. (I mean that sincerely) I never knew I was doing that, but it's true.

[KingAlfred]

Surely u must have mistyped them? It is not possible for an INFP to be a " Player" .............unless maybe they are very immature and unhealthy! How old is he or she?