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Thread: Beta STs and NFs - male and female essence

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Default Beta STs and NFs - male and female essence

    ...it seems quite true.

    Ideas all from David Deida's work.

    For sex to happen (pleasurably and optimally), there must be a polar exchange between the male and female essences. (I hear some of you gyuys going duh, or wtf is this about). It's not just about guy and girl, but it's about the attractive difference between a male essence and a female essence. A guy can have a female essence and a gal can have a male essence.

    This is what the essences are about.

    Female essence:
    The desire to have intimacy, relationship, and love (both giving and taking). The search for love.

    Male essence:
    The desire for freedom and capacity to pursue one's own desires. The search for freedom.

    I am a male with a heavy lean towards Female essence. Now this may have correlation to the fact that I am beta NF or not, but we'll have to find out.

    I would like to confirm if female beta ST's in general have greater male essence than female essence, and male beta NF's in general have greater female essence than male essence. So female ESTp's and ISTj's reply please! Male INFp's and ENFj's reply too!

    Of course, there are people who have both essences in equal measure. But it's only 1 in 10 of the population, according to David Deida.

    Hmm. I think ultimately it correlates to erotic attitudes. Victim = female essence and Aggressor = male essence.

    Last edited by Reuben; 03-16-2008 at 07:53 AM.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Well in that case, I'm more of a male essence, and I'm a female SLE. I have to say though that I don't really like the wording of the male essence, as it sounds like a caricature of something Ezra would say. I think it's more subtle than that.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    From an essential standpoint, I think the male description is mostly oriented to strength or need for , and the female seems to be describing strength or need for .

    Also I agree that the male essence sounds exaggerated. Maybe "The desire for freedom and capacity to pursue one's own desires" sounds better? That would definitely be me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Ah thanks Gilly for the rewording. Edited as necessary.

    Thanks Herzy for the input!

    By the way just wondering, is there such thing as Alpha Males with feminine essence?

    And Herzy you are attracted to Alpha Males aren't you? Hmmm, given your stature I assume you only go for the best and the fittest. Also assuming all INFp males have feminine essence, and that you have been attracted to INFp guys before, it probably shows that there is such a thing as an Alpha Male with feminine essence. Makes sense?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    And Herzy you are attracted to Alpha Males aren't you? Hmmm, given your stature I assume you only go for the best and the fittest. Also assuming all INFp males have feminine essence, and that you have been attracted to INFp guys before, it probably shows that there is such a thing as an Alpha Male with feminine essence. Makes sense?
    From what I've gathered on this forum, Herzy would be the Alpha Male in the relationship: after all, she is the best and the fittest
    XXXx <-- almost a beer

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    herzy likes sissy guys spread the word
    asd

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    And Herzy you are attracted to Alpha Males aren't you? Hmmm, given your stature I assume you only go for the best and the fittest. Also assuming all INFp males have feminine essence, and that you have been attracted to INFp guys before, it probably shows that there is such a thing as an Alpha Male with feminine essence. Makes sense?
    Actually, I tend to steer clear of so-called "alpha males" because I usually find them boring and I'd probably just end up competing with them anyways. While I'm sure that alpha males with feminine essences do exist, I naturally avoid alpha males anyways, so I naturally don't end up dating/screwing any of them.

    For the record, most IEI guys I've seen don't seem to have too much of a problem picking up chicks.
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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    For the record, most IEI guys I've seen don't seem to have too much of a problem picking up chicks.
    seriously, how can Fe really make you bad at picking up women? i would agree that most of them don't seem to have any problems with endearing themselves to people. i like male IEIs.
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    Fe doesn't make you bad at picking up women, but the NiFe may suffer from low self-esteem, or a periodic bout of doubts, perhaps seeing a negative outcome before taking action, giving off a sense of depression, being too socially inhibited, becoming the forgettable uninteresting person.

    Perhaps this all points towards the negative side of an NiFe (and possibly almost any other type in fact), but they are real problems that prevent sexy, interesting and infinitely non self-flattering INFp males like me from getting chicks. More chicks I mean. Especially in real life. I mean, I find it helluva easy to pick up chicks online but that's pharque-ing cheap and spineless I feel. Perhaps it's just the kind of society I live in (quite socially inhibited compared to the USA, too competitive and fast-paced, and lack of open-minded people), but I believe that's just a minor factor. It's hard to walk up to a gal who catches your eye and just say hi here. She'll think you're weird and just walk away. Nobody here talks to strangers, except men in their 50's who have nothing to do on the train. And then even those men are rare.

    But I'm planning to do that though. Planning to build up my self confidence so that I can walk up to a chick wherever I want to, walk away with her phone number, and not be thought of as some weird, conniving fellow. I'm so bloody pissed at myself for not being able to get the chicks that I want, and at the way I always zone out when I'm in a group with a few chicks and some other more popular guys. I hate this sort of existence to the core and I bloody wished that someone can teach me to be the best, most charming, INFp-me that I can ever be.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    Fe doesn't make you bad at picking up women, but the NiFe may suffer from low self-esteem, or a periodic bout of doubts, perhaps seeing a negative outcome before taking action, giving off a sense of depression, being too socially inhibited, becoming the forgettable uninteresting person.

    Perhaps this all points towards the negative side of an NiFe (and possibly almost any other type in fact), but they are real problems that prevent sexy, interesting and infinitely non self-flattering INFp males like me from getting chicks. More chicks I mean. Especially in real life. I mean, I find it helluva easy to pick up chicks online but that's pharque-ing cheap and spineless I feel. Perhaps it's just the kind of society I live in (quite socially inhibited compared to the USA, too competitive and fast-paced, and lack of open-minded people), but I believe that's just a minor factor. It's hard to walk up to a gal who catches your eye and just say hi here. She'll think you're weird and just walk away. Nobody here talks to strangers, except men in their 50's who have nothing to do on the train. And then even those men are rare.

    But I'm planning to do that though. Planning to build up my self confidence so that I can walk up to a chick wherever I want to, walk away with her phone number, and not be thought of as some weird, conniving fellow. I'm so bloody pissed at myself for not being able to get the chicks that I want, and at the way I always zone out when I'm in a group with a few chicks and some other more popular guys. I hate this sort of existence to the core and I bloody wished that someone can teach me to be the best, most charming, INFp-me that I can ever be.
    well i do sympathize, but first of all on line dating is where it's at. there are so many benefits to online, i could go on and on about it. pm me if interested in that angle.

    but anyway, male infp's, at least the ones i know, are usually quite introverted in the socionic sense. they don't like to directly initiate. this stands in contrast to societal expectations of male courting behavior. but i think a lot of times, personality trumps societal expectations. the key is to find a way to attract an extraverted type into trying to open you up and get you to talk.

    infpman did this with me by posting a profile that was so honest and down to earth about what he really wanted in a relationship and the kind of woman who would interest him. then, when we started to correspond, he became very cryptic and this made me want to ask him a lot of questions. then, after some correspondance, we talked on the phone and it was like creative Fe city....what fun! i mention this just to give an example of what attracted me and got me interested...maybe you could try something similar.

    but i wouldn't feel like you have to fit into a square box of male behavior. it's bullshit. besides, with your Se dual seeking, you definitely would have some fire inside ya anyway lol.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    The taboo or stigma of online dating is lame.

    I totally agree that it has so many benefits ... well, not that I have actually had a successful relationship from meeting someone I met online - but I would be well willing to do so.

    It's just easier to really gauge what a person is like, their personality, how compatible they really are with you. Just my opinion.


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    i met a girl from the internet and she was crazy.

    my best friend dated a girl seriously from the internet and once she put pancake batter in a toaster. a fair indicator that all girls you date from the internet have a higher retard potential.
    asd

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heath View Post
    i met a girl from the internet and she was crazy.

    my best friend dated a girl seriously from the internet and once she put pancake batter in a toaster. a fair indicator that all girls you date from the internet have a higher retard potential.
    That's just cause she didn't like you.


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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Haha. Wait dolphin. You said this is charming. I didn't get what you were referring to. What is charming?

    And yeah, I did not say that online dating has no benefits. I think online dating rocks, and it's something I'm kinda doing now but why I say it's spineless (or rather I am spineless) is because I am not as charming in real life as online. And that's not very desirable because you can't hide behind a computer every time you want to get a girl to open up to you.

    It gets me quite pissed off, this personality disparity. However it's quite a good strategy to get to know someone online before meeting them. It tends to give me more confidence, knowing how the person is like and how she will react to you in real life.

    And on a separate note, I believed I just freaked out an ESTp girl in school by smiling at her too much. I caught her eye, she started looking at me back, but then I started seeing her everywhere I go later in the day (it wasn't deliberate, she just happened to be there when I was there) and for some reason every time I accidentally catch her eye, I can't help but smile. And then she looks away quickly, which according to Herzy probably means we weren't meant to be. Either that or she freakin' likes me and was feeling shy or something.

    No idea.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    If I were that chick, I probably would've raised an eyebrow at you or made some ridiculous facial expression just so see how you'd react. I have no idea what's up with her.
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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    but the NiFe may suffer from low self-esteem, or a periodic bout of doubts, perhaps seeing a negative outcome before taking action
    Ah, it's the most annoying worst feeling that you can develop in relationships isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    @herzy

    Raise an eyebrow? You mean skeptically, like wtf are you looking at me? Or you mean as a response, like hey there, I see you, whassup?

    If you made a ridiculous facial expression at me I'll probably make one back.

    @starfall

    Yeah. I think it's worse if you felt that way before you could even start off.

    Usually if I feel that way during a relationship then I know it's time to break up or something.

    Yeah and I hate it it's a screwed thing, that feeling.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    @herzy

    Raise an eyebrow? You mean skeptically, like wtf are you looking at me? Or you mean as a response, like hey there, I see you, whassup?
    Yeah, the second one. If you did it back I'd definately go talk to you.

    Oh, and keep in mind that SLEs have the PoLR. There's a chance that she doesn't know how to react to your smiles. Maybe try toning it down a bit next time and see if she reacts any differently.
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    Gone. theMime.'s Avatar
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    My essence is a lesbian.
    lol.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMime. View Post
    My essence is a lesbian.
    lol.
    w000t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    btw I am female essence!!!!!
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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    I think of :

    Caregiver: Wanting to give love. So that would be female essense.

    Infantile: Wanting love/help/acceptance from dual. Also a female-ish essense imo.

    So it is two females loving each other, officially.
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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    but I don't see how those are male or female
    ARGH. I was counting on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    Oops, I meant...
    uh...

    I'm a lesbian with guys (who are actually lesbians)!!
    Is that right?
    I love how you think. You enjoy females, who are actually men, but they like women. Damn I expounded THAT.

    Tell me I am smart btw.
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    You can never tell an ISFp they are smart too much.

    We lose self-esteem easily, and reminding us we are worth something is always appreciated.
    D-SEI 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    Hmm. I think ultimately it correlates to erotic attitudes. Victim = female essence and Aggressor = male essence.
    Caregiver could be seen as the former; Infantile the latter.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Caregiver and infantile?

    Hmm... Why don't you bring it to the alpha thread

    Anyway being an elitist and all, I feel that NF's and ST's (betas and deltas in general) may correspond best to the feminine, masculine essence. That's because I feel that NF generally fits the female stereotype while ST the male stereotype. But that's just me from a beta perspective. For example I feel that ISTj's are much hotter than ESTj's (mainly because of the Se/Si divide), and both are perhaps more definitely of the male essence (maybe up to 80 and 90%) than an ESFp or INTp because of their combination of ST as compared to SF and NT, who would probably have a 40%/60% preference to either essence.

    But don't bother with my opinions because I'm really not trying to insult anyone or anything. Everyone has their own strengths and attractions.

    @ herzy. Yup thx for the advice. I reckon she could be unsure as to how to respond too, perhaps not really shy, just unready. Anyway, the conception that Alpha Male's are boring. How, why? Being Alpha doesn't mean ruffing up and acting the "ROAR I'M TUFF AND I'M HERE TO DOMINATE UR ASSES" guy who is probably suffering from low self esteem and a warped self image, thus trying to overcompensate for his weaknesses by acting tough. Neither are they the kind who's just out for sex or for scoring with girls. Those are shallow men who probably do not have any other goals in life. Alpha men are passionate about their personal goals, their purpose, their aims for life, and women just happen to be part of the equation. In midst of a storm they stand calm, in midst of fear they stand undaunted, in midst of other men they stand out. They know when to compete and when not to, taking what they want and giving completely of themselves. They win without needing others to lose. That's the Alpha male.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Okay, in that case, we probably just had different ideas of what an Alpha Male is. I was thinking more the stereotypical definition when you first asked about my opinion in that regard.

    Anyways, your definition definately sounds much more appealing. According to that, I have met IEI guys who are what you'd call an Alpha Male. One of them who particularly stood out to me was a co-worker of mine for a while. Unfortunately, he was quite a bit older, so things wouldn't have worked out anyways. I'm sure I'll meet more though once I go off to college!
    , Se-sub
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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    So Herzy, how's he like? What kind of goals thus he pursue? What's his purpose in life? How does he carry himself?

    I think it'd be good to hear how an IEI alpha male is like.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

  30. #30
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    I read Deida's book a while ago. Dude struck me as all kinds of pervy. Even more so on video:

    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    For sex to happen (pleasurably and optimally), there must be a polar exchange between the male and female essences.
    In straight people maybe. But in gay people.... we want to act like men and we want other men to act like men. Not alpha male or ridiculously exaggerated and easy to make fun of, but just....masculine.

    Also to be honest people that write stuff like that tend not to get laid very often, regardless of their orientation.

    That guy in the video sounds massively insecure and also like a closeted homosexual.

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    I am a male with a heavy lean towards Female essence. Now this may have correlation to the fact that I am beta NF or not, but we'll have to find out.
    But see, you still are straight and want a woman just a tough one. I'm a versatile gay male that wants a sub/dom entirely depending on my mood. I want both of those traits equally. I was already born naturally with my 'polar exchanges' so I don't need somebody to balance me. Those people looked like they were all thinking too much about their heterosexuality instead of just enjoying it....

    If I want somebody submissive, I want it to be a man. And sometimes even though I'm submissive I want another submissive as well. This might not make sense to some people, but I think- you're being just kinda crude and offensive if you think they will clash. Both 'mannerisms' turn me on really well as long as people are authentic about them.

    I come across as a victimy bottom boy but I'm not. If a guy isn't sucking my dick or being my little bitch pretty soon, I will leave him. I've had enough experience to know what I am. I like to be on top sometimes and I like to be the bottom "female" sometimes as well. Maybe straight people aren't like this? I have no idea.

    See this is why you have a neurosis. If you believe that only males can be tough, but you're a male and you're not tough- BUT YOU'RE STRAIGHT and you believe in heterosexist nonsense and you want a woman but you still are upset that society doesn't seem to accept that you are passive.... I can see how that would be sexually frustrating.

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    Also it sounds to me like you're over-idealizing the Alpha Male..... win without needing others to lose? Sounds like you have some boycrush and daddy issues to work out, no offense. You might have lacked a strong male role model growing up. Not 'strong' like you're thinking of, but a guy that taught you it was okay to be sensitive etc.

    I think this all comes from having lack of male role-models growing up for fear of homoerotic intimacy. Really, the Romans and other cultures were bad-ass Warriors because males interacted more and weren't so homophobic and didn't label everything as male/female, gay/straight.

    Ever hear of the Female Sabotage theory in Evolution? I think it explains what you're trying to say without being sooo um stereotypical and self-defeating about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Sabotage

    But obviously that doesn't work in humans, because subordinate males breed all the time. The problem is, guys don't think of themselves as 'subordinate' anymore when they're fucking a pussy. Especially straight males. But they still SO are. (My Father for example). And honestly this is just the perception. A female animal is working on instinct and isn't thinking OOOH YOU'RE SOOOO TOUGH AND DOMINANT.

    Sometimes self-confidence and bullying relates a lot but so what? So what if the guys that made you smell their jockstraps in the lockerroom were naturally stronger than you in a way? I mean yeah they're better than some way...but so what. A female is still going to choose you to actually take care of the kid.

    I never understand that anyway because I'm passive but I have really good genes and I never get sick. And girls would do me if I was straight I get that all the time. So wtf???? I don't think anybody really understands the 'alpha male' thing and it causes more problems even thinking about it. I can tell you right now - none of the guys on this site are alpha males no matter what you guys think.

    You're trying to make the mean and dominant guys seem nicer because you're jealous of them. Don't be. Embrace your inner bottom boy. =)

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    Caregiver and infantile?

    Hmm... Why don't you bring it to the alpha thread

    Anyway being an elitist and all, I feel that NF's and ST's (betas and deltas in general) may correspond best to the feminine, masculine essence. That's because I feel that NF generally fits the female stereotype while ST the male stereotype. But that's just me from a beta perspective. For example I feel that ISTj's are much hotter than ESTj's (mainly because of the Se/Si divide), and both are perhaps more definitely of the male essence (maybe up to 80 and 90&#37 than an ESFp or INTp because of their combination of ST as compared to SF and NT, who would probably have a 40%/60% preference to either essence.

    But don't bother with my opinions because I'm really not trying to insult anyone or anything. Everyone has their own strengths and attractions.

    @ herzy. Yup thx for the advice. I reckon she could be unsure as to how to respond too, perhaps not really shy, just unready. Anyway, the conception that Alpha Male's are boring. How, why? Being Alpha doesn't mean ruffing up and acting the "ROAR I'M TUFF AND I'M HERE TO DOMINATE UR ASSES" guy who is probably suffering from low self esteem and a warped self image, thus trying to overcompensate for his weaknesses by acting tough. Neither are they the kind who's just out for sex or for scoring with girls. Those are shallow men who probably do not have any other goals in life. Alpha men are passionate about their personal goals, their purpose, their aims for life, and women just happen to be part of the equation. In midst of a storm they stand calm, in midst of fear they stand undaunted, in midst of other men they stand out. They know when to compete and when not to, taking what they want and giving completely of themselves. They win without needing others to lose. That's the Alpha male.
    Nice description of an alpha male,

    lmao@an alpha male being boring. hahahaha

    Dude, I have to disagree about your assertion of ST/NF types

    That has nothing to do with masculinity/femininity.

    This comes more so from self-esteem, beyond the type factors.

    Yes, women are generally emotion-based, while men are logical. However, this doesn't matter. For instance, wearing pink was something considered feminine. Men took it on, and it was badass for awhile (still is, depending on who wears it )

    'Real Men Wear Pink' etc

    Emotion/logic can be equally feminine/masculine depending on how both are perceived/used. Also, I highly recommend david deida's book 'way of the superior man'. Although I don't agree with all of his points, it's great stuff guys.


    Edit:

    Female Sabatoge Theory is VERY real. It's not just women either, men do this too. Funny thing is, women want men(whoa, right?). They don't want you to be sabotaged, and really, it's only you who lets it happen.

    Also on the subordinate males comment, the divorce rate is 50 percent or so, U.S. Alot of women, in my experience, feel that they have no choice but to go with betas. You think if there wasn't a better option, (which they knew they could achieve)that person would not grab it? Alphas also, in retrospect, aren't the safest to build a life with. Same elements that attract,(spontaneity, dominance, not giving a fuck, etc) can be/are dangerous. But, do women truly prefer betas over alphas? NO.

    I mean, as with everything, you can find cases where that wouldn't prove true. However, I'm speaking generally, and I very much doubt that someone who would prefer a beta, has high-self esteem/is psychologically well.
    Last edited by thePirate; 04-04-2008 at 08:03 AM.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

  35. #35
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    Lol. Somehow my filtering program censors the reply page so I can't reply normally. I can quick reply though. Anyway. Why I say NF --> feminine essence / ST --> masculine essence goes back to the definition of feminine essence and masculine essence.

    Feminine essence:
    The feminine essence is life force, movement, colours, light, radiance. It is ever changing. It is stimuli, it is observed. It is dancing, changing, wavering, vibrating, whirling. It is in constant motion, and it changes over time. This is the Ni part of the feminine. It is also light, radiance, radiating light. It is beautiful, and it is expressed. This is the Fe part of feminine. Some may argue that the beauty in this case may suggest Se. But I feel that S belongs more to the masculine, while the nature of this beauty is radiance, expressed beauty, and light, which belongs more to Fe than Se.

    Masculine essence:
    However Se inclinces towards observation, being aware, being present. This is what the masculine is all about. It is about being the observer on the outside, to enjoy beauty, to be aware of the exciting radiance in the feminine essence. The feminine essence wants to be ravished, loved, and enjoyed, and that is exactly what the masculine essence does. It takes, it ravishes, and it is so aware of the feminine essence that it even feels the entire being of the feminine essence, ravishing its entire essence. The masculine essence stands apart from the crowd, it does not participate, it merely observes, it is inclined to joke in a detached way, inclined to be detached, observing. The observer cannot be the observed. The observed is the feminine essence. This is the Se aspect of the masculine essence, to be present, aware, but detached from the circumstance and the ever changing radiance of the feminine essence. Ti comes from the directionality and purpose of the masculine essence. The masculine essence has knowledge of his deepest purpose and dedicates his entire self towards this goal. Everything he does, all the time he has, every where he goes, is for the sake of achieving his purpose (which may change over time). And this purpose is never beautiful women. But anyway, the knowledge of this truth, this truth of purpose, is closely correlated to Ti.

    Therefore I propose that NF correlates to the feminine essence and ST correlates to the masculine essence. What is defined here as the essence is mainly the ideal embodiment of the essence, so most may not identify with it. Also, a man can have a feminine essence and a female a masculine essence and vice versa, so it is not accurate to generalize saying that men do this and women do this in order to generate statements about the essences.

    And although this is framed in relation to beta, Se and Ti generally relates to the masculine essence even in alpha and gamma, while Ni and Fe generally relates to the feminine essence even in alpha and gamma. This is not to say that Si, Te, Ne, and Fi has no place in the essences, its just that it's not important in my dissertion so far.

    Now looking at the above definitions of the masculine and feminine essence in respect to beta, would one still say that someone who prefers members of this quadra who reflect those qualities does not have high-self esteem and psychological wellness?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

  36. #36
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    @ BulletsAndDoves

    Yea. So I hope some stuff are clarified after reading the definitions of the essences.

    About your assertion that you would like a submissive partner while being submissive. Hey. How do any of you be the submissive one if none is the dominator. How can both of you have sex if neither wants to be on top. How can either be lead if none wants to lead. Basically, if both are submissive and none initiating there will be no sex. Submission = no initiation but reaction. Of course there will be interplay, perhaps in both submissive partner. One is submitting, the other is leading, then the first starts to lead, and the second submits. So in any case there must be a dominant and a submissive. Dominant does not mean a overtly aggressive lover, it means an initiator and a leader. If two submissive (preferring submission) people come together, they will take turns being the dominant lover, while if two dominant (preferring domination) people come together, they will take turns being the submissive lover.

    I believe you do not need balancing because you probably are a 50/50 split. Either that or you're suppressing either the masculine or feminine essence, thus growing and showing the other one more visibly.

    Also, no one who embodies perfectly the masculine and feminine essence (by perfectly I mean embodying the essence as according to how that particular individual is made to embody it, there's no fix percentage) requires balancing by another person of the opposing essence (or similar in the case of those who are 50/50). One who embodies heavily the masculine essence has no need feminine essence in the form of his/her counterpart, though he greatly appreciates it, because the feminine essence can be found everywhere, in life, in nature, in motion. The same can be said of one who embodies heavily the feminine essence; the masculine essence can be found in places and environments which are highly goal-oriented, purpose driven, and detached. For those who are 50/50, well, why the hell do you need sex, you can just do it yourself in the room with either hand.

    Just joking. Well you can feed your essences constantly with any stimulus since you require both. Also, you'll attract a 50/50 partner, assuming you are functioning healthily and wholly according to the essences.

    Also, I do not make mean dominant males look nice. Mean dominant males are not truly alpha, because they are mean to people, probably for no reason at all. Meanness for no reason usually implies hate of good things, which has no place in an alpha male. Yea, they sure hate evil, injustice, and abuse, but that doesn't mean they are mean. Are they nice? Not to evil murderers, malicious rapists, or selfish seducers (note all the qualifying terms in front, not all murderers, rapists, and seducers are bad), but surely they are nice (such a shallow term but yea) to the ones they love.

    Perhaps no one on this site are alpha males. But so? No one ever said there was one on this site.

    It is not true that no one understands the alpha male concept, rather that people misunderstand it and define it according to their terms, thus confusing others with their definition, for example the popular concept that they must be jerks, they must trash others to the mud just for the fun of it, they must stop at nothing, even bloodshed of innocent lives for no reason at all in order to achieve their purpose. Those people? They are alpha male wannabes.

    Also the thing about women thinking OMG YOU'RE SO TOUGH AND DOMINANT. Whose so silly as to think that women even think during love making. Science has proven that the rational parts of their brain shut down during orgasm and other periods of intense pleasure. Also, like you said, they work on instinct. Most of them aren't even responding to what you are saying, but rather your presence and body language.

    And in what way am I trying to assert female sabotage theory?

    No offense, and though this may to some extent apply to me, but I feel that your writing is sometimes a little unclear. Maybe I'm just stupid, but for example :

    "But obviously that doesn't work in humans, because subordinate males breed all the time. The problem is, guys don't think of themselves as 'subordinate' anymore when they're fucking a pussy. Especially straight males. But they still SO are. (My Father for example). And honestly this is just the perception. A female animal is working on instinct and isn't thinking OOOH YOU'RE SOOOO TOUGH AND DOMINANT.

    Sometimes self-confidence and bullying relates a lot but so what? So what if the guys that made you smell their jockstraps in the lockerroom were naturally stronger than you in a way? I mean yeah they're better than some way...but so what. A female is still going to choose you to actually take care of the kid."

    What does that got to do with the whole argument. I'm lost.

    "See this is why you have a neurosis. If you believe that only males can be tough, but you're a male and you're not tough- BUT YOU'RE STRAIGHT and you believe in heterosexist nonsense and you want a woman but you still are upset that society doesn't seem to accept that you are passive.... I can see how that would be sexually frustrating."

    Your first premise is wrong. I do not believe that only males can be tough. Society never accepts passive retards. Even those with feminine essence got to actually shine and go out in the world before they are notice. Yea that may sound effortless but it actually does require some effort to overcome barriers like mood swings, doubt, low self-esteem, let alone shine with such radiance that attracts all observers a.k.a. masculine essence, so it isn't passive. So obviously your conclusion about me having a neurosis isn't sound.

    The reason why that guy in the video sounds insecure and like a closeted homosexual could be because you are projecting parts of your(past?)self into him, if not, it could also be because he is consciously embodying feminine essence in order to interest and attract the attention of the audience. Which makes him seem pervy and gay, but you could also see times where he suddenly straightens up, toughens up his voice and leads on to another point, that's his masculine essence in action and its his natural self. Trust me, he gets laid a lot, while some people only get laid because of good genes. Like those guys from boy bands who are caught in the masculine repression because its the hip thing of this age.

    Win without need others to lose? What the hell is wrong with that. If you achieved world peace, who loses? Of course I'm not counting hate-lovin' death-mongerin' bastards. Because most of them are subhuman and thus aren't contained in the pronoun 'who'. So in fact you win, he wins, she wins, and everyone wins.

    Sorry for not quoting and addressing everything in chronological order like most people would prefer but that just bores me out. So yeah.

    If you've actually read all this, spank yourself hard for wasting 5 minutes of your precious life.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    Lol. Somehow my filtering program censors the reply page so I can't reply normally. I can quick reply though. Anyway. Why I say NF --> feminine essence / ST --> masculine essence goes back to the definition of feminine essence and masculine essence.

    Feminine essence:
    The feminine essence is life force, movement, colours, light, radiance. It is ever changing. It is stimuli, it is observed. It is dancing, changing, wavering, vibrating, whirling. It is in constant motion, and it changes over time. This is the Ni part of the feminine. It is also light, radiance, radiating light. It is beautiful, and it is expressed. This is the Fe part of feminine. Some may argue that the beauty in this case may suggest Se. But I feel that S belongs more to the masculine, while the nature of this beauty is radiance, expressed beauty, and light, which belongs more to Fe than Se.

    Masculine essence:
    However Se inclinces towards observation, being aware, being present. This is what the masculine is all about. It is about being the observer on the outside, to enjoy beauty, to be aware of the exciting radiance in the feminine essence. The feminine essence wants to be ravished, loved, and enjoyed, and that is exactly what the masculine essence does. It takes, it ravishes, and it is so aware of the feminine essence that it even feels the entire being of the feminine essence, ravishing its entire essence. The masculine essence stands apart from the crowd, it does not participate, it merely observes, it is inclined to joke in a detached way, inclined to be detached, observing. The observer cannot be the observed. The observed is the feminine essence. This is the Se aspect of the masculine essence, to be present, aware, but detached from the circumstance and the ever changing radiance of the feminine essence. Ti comes from the directionality and purpose of the masculine essence. The masculine essence has knowledge of his deepest purpose and dedicates his entire self towards this goal. Everything he does, all the time he has, every where he goes, is for the sake of achieving his purpose (which may change over time). And this purpose is never beautiful women. But anyway, the knowledge of this truth, this truth of purpose, is closely correlated to Ti.

    Therefore I propose that NF correlates to the feminine essence and ST correlates to the masculine essence. What is defined here as the essence is mainly the ideal embodiment of the essence, so most may not identify with it. Also, a man can have a feminine essence and a female a masculine essence and vice versa, so it is not accurate to generalize saying that men do this and women do this in order to generate statements about the essences.

    And although this is framed in relation to beta, Se and Ti generally relates to the masculine essence even in alpha and gamma, while Ni and Fe generally relates to the feminine essence even in alpha and gamma. This is not to say that Si, Te, Ne, and Fi has no place in the essences, its just that it's not important in my dissertion so far.

    Now looking at the above definitions of the masculine and feminine essence in respect to beta, would one still say that someone who prefers members of this quadra who reflect those qualities does not have high-self esteem and psychological wellness?
    Yeah, I see what you are saying. Again, imo, it comes down to perception, although I agree with your points, mostly. This is, again, something that comes out beyond types. Masculinity/Femininity can be expressed through any trait, to varying degrees, depending. Self Esteem is a HUGE factor here, which is why the other stuff is irrelevant to an extent.

    I still have to disagree with this, in terms of how you relate it to types. Someone who is a NF can have the same strength of purpose as an ST. I don't know if I would equate presence with masculinity, that's a bit of a stretch.

    I agree with generalities, but I find it real useful, in that recognizing commonalities are important

    Also, when I was talking about betas, I was not referring to the beta males in the sense of quadras, but in the sense of the alpha/beta male distinction(nature wise, etc.)
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

  38. #38
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    lol. Is sex really this big a deal

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    First off, I think you are turning sex into porn and cheapening it. Sex is more about intimacy and erotica than the way you're going about it. I've had sex the way you're talking about with strong domination and submission energies and it only looks good in porn, in real life it bothered me and I was unsatisfied. I like when things are equal ....take two people holding hands. Both are dominant and submissive at the same time equally one could say I suppose- but it's not about that. And nobody lead or followed it just happened. To me that's when sex is the hottest and most explosive. I can't believe you think this would somehow 'clash' - in fact the exact opposite happens.

    You are talking from a very straight male point of view, and it shows. There are gay people in this world. And how can you analyze about sex so much anyway?

    You don't know how fucking offensive you're being. You are turning sex into batteries or magnets. That's not what it's about. Stop comparing things that have nothing to do with sex. Domination and submission isn't what sex is about. That is a fetish...some people really enjoy that, but for me real sex is all about equal energies feeling more powerful with each other.

    I might submit but to do that, the guy has to be gentle and submissive himself, so I know he won't hurt me. Again you don't know what you're talking about. Do you even get laid a lot? Because you sound like the kind of fucktard that thinks sex is about pain.

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    lol. Is sex really this big a deal
    The problem that almost all straight men have is they think of sex in terms of what's all up in their heads (straight guys are 100&#37; guilty of this, gay guys 50% and women are usually totally innocent here). They live way too much up into their heads instead of understanding the body/intimacy connection. They are speaking only from the voyeur part of their view, where yes- what they're saying is actually true. But when it comes to actual sex, that does not feel good at all. Porn actors complain all the time when they have things done that only look good but don't feel good.

    Sometimes looking good and feeling good can match up, but ironically enough they don't usually mesh well.

    The topic creator is in love with the image of sex, he isn't in love with actual sex. And it shows.

    Men's visual stimulation gets desensitized after awhile. So you have to look up even more domination/submission stuff until you're getting in such a dark territory you start looking up real rape pictures and being aroused - yes being honestly aroused and very excited about somebody being totally helpless and non-consenting. It's the only thing that ends up turning you on. Because hey, it fits their fucking little heterosexist theory to a complete T. The woman is totally submissive- she can't act at all and is drugged up and the man is being very dominant. But in reality, it's a sickening thing.

    Listen I can appreciate the fantasy of Gag the Fag and such but in reality I'm not going to do that with my boyfriend in fact it might even look really boring and like nothing is happening but in actuality it feels mindblowing. I don't get why so many people are clueless about this.

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