Originally Posted by
Expat
The problem is that you look at things like this:
And then you simply take that to mean:
"ISFjs are very submissive to authority in most cases.", as per your ISFj description, and you say the opposite about ISTjs with "ISTjs are rebellious people".
It's just -- daft. It's a painfully simplistic extrapolation. The questions that must be raised are:
1) Did Gulenko really mean those definitiosn to be interpreted in that black-and-white way? "ISTjs have -Se, so they are rebellious; ISFjs have +Se, so they are very submissive?" That is, the +/- thing to make the functions act in directly opposite ways? Gulenko wrote a lot about many things, but I wonder if he ever meant anything like that.
This is what Gulenko himself wrote about the ISFj sensory subtype:
He writes similar things about ISFjs generally in socionics.org -- go take a look.
So how can you even begin to imagine that, from those brief descriptions of +/-, that "ISFjs are generally submissive"? Is it that simple?
2) Even if Gulenko did change his mind and your simplistic +/- definition is what he thinks (which I doubt), but, anyway -- is Gulenko the end-all of classical socionics now, is he?
Filatova says about Se in ISFjs:
.
Is that a "submissive" type?
Or in socioscope.com - Se in ISFjs:
And on and on and on.
So:
- did Gulenko himself even mean those definitions to be interpreted that way? I doubt it, from the other stuff he wrote.
- even if he did, isn't it fair to acknowledge that other socionics sources say the precise opposite? That's why hitta's understanding of the model is a violation of classical socionics.
What hitta did was look at that set of simplistic descriptions - probably not grasping what Gulenko really meant - then think that he understood it all better than anyone else, without even taking the trouble to see how it fits with other sources.
It's just -- absurd. It deserves no further consideration.
I think the "+/Se = submissive" is just the worst example, not the only one.
Watch now hitta not address any of the above and just say I'm stupid.