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Thread: Somebody I know

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    Default Somebody I know

    The person can appear kind of dry, but at the same time not so much. More like, the person lacks concern for other people. And yet at the same time I'm not sure. They don't seem to take other people's opinions on things into consideration, but you could equally claim they do it out of consideration. It's things like random praise or critique. Well, perhaps it isn't random, it's more like the person has a tendency to give an estimate of things and is not prone to sugarcoating it. This behavior I'm not sure how to interpret properly. I can't really see if it is concern, or lack of concern. Or any personal sentiment at all. It's almost robot like in it's nature. Depersonalized.

    The person gets motivated by work. Like an assignment, deadline, responsibility is something that can bring them out of a depression. They seem to set their feeling, problems aside in order to "perform adequately". Which I find so odd. Primarily because they're lazy as hell and work ethics is not something you'd associate with them. The contrary really. But now that I think about it, the results beg to differ. But somehow it always seems like they invest little to no effort. And they are always bitching about how they are lazy, how they should be doing something, how they have some sort of "responsibility" to do. However, if it is such a problem for them how come they keep going on and on about it. How come they present it as if they need a "way out" of it. I think they like it, the work, responsibility, despite the claims of opposite personal sentiments.

    Thinking about it, it does make sense, And also if they are so lazy how come the results disagree completely. The college they attend is not easy and they make it "sound" easy. I guess you could say it's natural talent, but it was the same in high school. Always had the results. They were never the best, but they never fell behind.

    Actually, now that I think about it, I've never actually seen them fail. They do enough to be considered successful in whatever they are doing but not enough to be consumed by performance, achievement. Like they have a balance in such things. And when they underachieve on things they set out to do, break the balance, they respond by doubling, no, quadrupling their efforts.

    And that's another thing, they set out to do things. Like when performing a task, they'll say they need to do this, and this, and this in order to get it done, kind of really break apart the task. They also kind of set these markers, indicators that let them know how they are doing. And like I said if they miss them they do everything in their power to get back on track as quickly as possible. And they also bitch about them as well. Like I need to get such and such result from such and such thing. And they set limitation, boundaries, make criteria for things. I have to do this by tomorrow, I will do it by the end of the week, and so on. I know it sounds everyday when say it, but when you hear them you definitely get the feeling of self maintenance, self steering, self control, as if they absolutly have to do it by then. However, sometimes they don't do it, but there is always an explanation on why they judged they could "allow" themselves to do that, on why that has gained a "lower priority" and "can wait".

    However, sometimes I get the feeling like they arrange their priorities on a personal basis, as in who they like and don't like. Like as if for some people they would go out on a limb while for others they wouldn't lift a finger. But only sometimes. As they seem the kind of person that would, once they do give you their word, would stick to it. And nothing has ever contradicted this impression in any way. In fact, if they think they cannot do something, despite your wishes they would be frank about it. Actually, it's like they won't pep talk you when things get bad, won't lie to you about what they can or cannot do, but they would help carry you through it, they would help you deal with things to the best of their ability. But still, sometimes I get the impression they don't really care for some people and are just being professional with them. Which sounds odd as I'm not speaking of dealing with business partners but of going out on a saturday night. Like they don't like certain people but maintain good relations with them. Well, at least in public. I seriously doubt they have any contact in private.

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    This person has a tendency to sometimes be a party pooper. That quality of giving straight up estimates I mentioned before. This can really rain on people's parades. Like say we were in a group, you know, went out on a friday, and two people had harmonicas. Well, one person, but the two of them were into it. And they were getting carried away by the spirit kind of. Well, this person was very blunt about the suckage of the learner of the two. The learner took it as purposeful discouragement and wowed to not give up, almost in a spite kind of thing. The person wasn't too upset about this. Actually not at all. The learner visibly was. If only a little.

    Also this person is the type that always has a say in everything, some little piece of information, opinion, advice and so on. They're the "Did you know that..." type. And arrogant about it. Like, if they think they're correct they don't back off. Even if it is a small matter. They still feel the need to "put you down" and correct you. But much like I mentioned before I'm not sure how to interpret this. It seem like they are being nasty on purpose but after getting past it, it seem as if they don't even care about you. Like they were indifferent to you the whole time. Odd really.

    A talent they have is making order. But it's a subtle one. And not a propagated one. Like they don't really talk or consider it in any way. When they do it they do it and nobody notices a thing. Well, not really nobody.

    They have a "thing" with doing things properly, right, correctly, and so on. But this is not something that goes away like water under a bridge. They have to keep pushing it. Like I mentioned when they do it feels so mean but so insensitive at the same time. And they never let it go, even the minor issues. They have to make absolutely sure "they've got it right". And no amount of friendship, loyalty will stand between that.

    And they also don't lie. Which I think is a lie. As everybody lies. I think they do lie, but lie about it. Like they have some sort of an issue with it. As if they need to appear prudent or something. Pathetic really. And I think their need for being correct about thing is also a part of this.

    And I think they're perfectionist. Even though the claim not to be. They align unaligned object on furniture and stuff and can quickly organize things, "bring order". And when confronted they go silent. They can't explain it. I think it's because of our lazy ass culture where people are brought up to admire and propagate laziness and underachievement, so they "try to fit in" by pretending to have adopted the group norms. Which again I find pathetic. But then again, they might have their own best interests at heart, which is something I can relate to.

    However, up until recently, when I took a look at the elements and their usage a little more, took a look at their essence more carefully, I was convinced this person is a Fe type. They're the classical Fe group person, cracking jokes, laughing, generally bringing comedy and laughs to the group. But it doesn't fit. The individual is anything but emotive at heart, in fact, even when in this fun mood they seem so depersonalized, insensitive. If they show some sort of personal sentiments I cant help but feel it's fake for them. That they feel nothing but have a social mask on. Because when it is time to comfort people, they shy away. Well, not so much shy away as drop that image. They aid by not being warm, fluffy and cuddly, but by laying it out how they see it and expecting the person to *work* their problems out. And I emphasized the word "work" purposefully here.

    When I reed the Fe descriptions now and think about it, other then a superficial similarity, they don't seem like it. To take from the wiki, they do seem to have a keen grasp of what people are passionate about, excitement and liveliness, agitation and irritation, shock and amazement, distress and gloominess, but I wouldn't say at their core. In all honesty, I don't think they care about any of that. Especially group spirit. Even though they seem to be masters at it. But it feels like it's just fake, as if it's a play, some sort social adaptation brought on by compensation, as if it was something they learned and became good at it. Like I said, they have a tendency to want to do thing "right" and will have no qualms, or should I say regards for personal sentiments, in doing so. And this feels off about a Fe dominant. What Fe dominant stops a joke to correct somebody on providing wrong information. I mean, it's a joke, or retelling of a funny personal experience, people are suppose to tell it their way, to make some alterations to the tale, to give it that personal feel to it. But they always function as if everything has to be 100% correct. And they don't even do this purposefully, they just naturally do things like "So there I was, *chuckle* all alone in the middle of the night *buts in* actually it was early evening, about 9 if I remember correctly, 9.15 *buts out* well, thank you, regardless, there I was...".

    However, I can't shake the impression of Fe from them. They're so playful, and so Fe-cute. They go aww at puppies, they like pretty colors, shiny objects, very much use the Fe hyper talk "OMG that is SO COOL!!11!1!1!!1". I guess you could say they love life, but I'm sure that's not it. It's when you get close to them that bothers me. On the surface, from a far, they seem straightforward Fe type, case closed, but up close and personal, not at all. They always seem to propagate a reduction of Fe, toning things down. In terms of personal values it seem the opposite, straight forward Te. However, they do still remain carefree and playful, childlike really. Well, not constantly really, but up close and personal they still, naturally, act Fe-ish at times. So I'm just not sure about them.

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    sounds ESTj to me
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    sounds ESTj to me
    Really? Why? What makes you say that? Why not some other type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The person can appear kind of dry, but at the same time not so much. More like, the person lacks concern for other people. And yet at the same time I'm not sure. They don't seem to take other people's opinions on things into consideration, but you could equally claim they do it out of consideration. It's things like random praise or critique. Well, perhaps it isn't random, it's more like the person has a tendency to give an estimate of things and is not prone to sugarcoating it. This behavior I'm not sure how to interpret properly. I can't really see if it is concern, or lack of concern. Or any personal sentiment at all. It's almost robot like in it's nature. Depersonalized.
    Indicates that the person is most likely an introverted logical type.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The person gets motivated by work. Like an assignment, deadline, responsibility is something that can bring them out of a depression. They seem to set their feeling, problems aside in order to "perform adequately". Which I find so odd. Primarily because they're lazy as hell and work ethics is not something you'd associate with them. The contrary really. But now that I think about it, the results beg to differ. But somehow it always seems like they invest little to no effort. And they are always bitching about how they are lazy, how they should be doing something, how they have some sort of "responsibility" to do. However, if it is such a problem for them how come they keep going on and on about it. How come they present it as if they need a "way out" of it. I think they like it, the work, responsibility, despite the claims of opposite personal sentiments.
    This is harder to evaluate. IP behaviour but not the most typical IP attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Thinking about it, it does make sense, And also if they are so lazy how come the results disagree completely. The college they attend is not easy and they make it "sound" easy. I guess you could say it's natural talent, but it was the same in high school. Always had the results. They were never the best, but they never fell behind.
    Indicates above average IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, I've never actually seen them fail. They do enough to be considered successful in whatever they are doing but not enough to be consumed by performance, achievement. Like they have a balance in such things. And when they underachieve on things they set out to do, break the balance, they respond by doubling, no, quadrupling their efforts.
    Doesn't tell us anything for sure. Consistent with IP temperament, though. Maybe consistent with IJ temperament too in some circumstances. Unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And that's another thing, they set out to do things. Like when performing a task, they'll say they need to do this, and this, and this in order to get it done, kind of really break apart the task. They also kind of set these markers, indicators that let them know how they are doing. And like I said if they miss them they do everything in their power to get back on track as quickly as possible. And they also bitch about them as well. Like I need to get such and such result from such and such thing. And they set limitation, boundaries, make criteria for things. I have to do this by tomorrow, I will do it by the end of the week, and so on. I know it sounds everyday when say it, but when you hear them you definitely get the feeling of self maintenance, self steering, self control, as if they absolutly have to do it by then. However, sometimes they don't do it, but there is always an explanation on why they judged they could "allow" themselves to do that, on why that has gained a "lower priority" and "can wait".
    Another unclear passage (in content, I mean). A person with somewhat confusing type vibes.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    However, sometimes I get the feeling like they arrange their priorities on a personal basis, as in who they like and don't like. Like as if for some people they would go out on a limb while for others they wouldn't lift a finger. But only sometimes. As they seem the kind of person that would, once they do give you their word, would stick to it. And nothing has ever contradicted this impression in any way. In fact, if they think they cannot do something, despite your wishes they would be frank about it. Actually, it's like they won't pep talk you when things get bad, won't lie to you about what they can or cannot do, but they would help carry you through it, they would help you deal with things to the best of their ability. But still, sometimes I get the impression they don't really care for some people and are just being professional with them. Which sounds odd as I'm not speaking of dealing with business partners but of going out on a saturday night. Like they don't like certain people but maintain good relations with them. Well, at least in public. I seriously doubt they have any contact in private.
    Probably consistent with more than one IT type.

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    Yeah, ESTj especially if seen through (what I think are) your INFp eyes. Some of what you attribute to Fe is not really Fe, but Si.

    I can explain it in more detail later.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I can explain it in more detail later.
    I would appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The person can appear kind of dry, but at the same time not so much. More like, the person lacks concern for other people. And yet at the same time I'm not sure. They don't seem to take other people's opinions on things into consideration, but you could equally claim they do it out of consideration. It's things like random praise or critique. Well, perhaps it isn't random, it's more like the person has a tendency to give an estimate of things and is not prone to sugarcoating it. This behavior I'm not sure how to interpret properly. I can't really see if it is concern, or lack of concern. Or any personal sentiment at all. It's almost robot like in it's nature. Depersonalized.
    That's how types often see types in action.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The person gets motivated by work. Like an assignment, deadline, responsibility is something that can bring them out of a depression. They seem to set their feeling, problems aside in order to "perform adequately". Which I find so odd. Primarily because they're lazy as hell and work ethics is not something you'd associate with them. The contrary really. But now that I think about it, the results beg to differ. But somehow it always seems like they invest little to no effort. And they are always bitching about how they are lazy, how they should be doing something, how they have some sort of "responsibility" to do. However, if it is such a problem for them how come they keep going on and on about it. How come they present it as if they need a "way out" of it. I think they like it, the work, responsibility, despite the claims of opposite personal sentiments.
    That's contradictory, it could indicate either IP or EJ. Let me explain. One of EJ's chief motivations is the need to do something, precisely because they never feel they're doing enough. But it's difficult to see what's really happening, from your description.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Thinking about it, it does make sense, And also if they are so lazy how come the results disagree completely. The college they attend is not easy and they make it "sound" easy. I guess you could say it's natural talent, but it was the same in high school. Always had the results. They were never the best, but they never fell behind.
    Difficult to say anything really.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, I've never actually seen them fail. They do enough to be considered successful in whatever they are doing but not enough to be consumed by performance, achievement. Like they have a balance in such things. And when they underachieve on things they set out to do, break the balance, they respond by doubling, no, quadrupling their efforts.
    Same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And that's another thing, they set out to do things. Like when performing a task, they'll say they need to do this, and this, and this in order to get it done, kind of really break apart the task. They also kind of set these markers, indicators that let them know how they are doing. And like I said if they miss them they do everything in their power to get back on track as quickly as possible. And they also bitch about them as well. Like I need to get such and such result from such and such thing. And they set limitation, boundaries, make criteria for things. I have to do this by tomorrow, I will do it by the end of the week, and so on.
    This is very typical Si EJ behavior, it's how they deal with the low Ni.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    I know it sounds everyday when say it, but when you hear them you definitely get the feeling of self maintenance, self steering, self control, as if they absolutly have to do it by then. However, sometimes they don't do it, but there is always an explanation on why they judged they could "allow" themselves to do that, on why that has gained a "lower priority" and "can wait".
    The same. I think you notice it so glaringly because it's the precise opposite to your nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    However, sometimes I get the feeling like they arrange their priorities on a personal basis, as in who they like and don't like. Like as if for some people they would go out on a limb while for others they wouldn't lift a finger.
    Yeah quadra, especially if rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    But only sometimes. As they seem the kind of person that would, once they do give you their word, would stick to it. And nothing has ever contradicted this impression in any way. In fact, if they think they cannot do something, despite your wishes they would be frank about it.
    That's typical Te-Fi rational behavior, but I could see Alpha and Beta rationals doing it, too.



    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Actually, it's like they won't pep talk you when things get bad, won't lie to you about what they can or cannot do, but they would help carry you through it, they would help you deal with things to the best of their ability.
    That's very typical Te-dominant behavior, but obviously not exclusive to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    But still, sometimes I get the impression they don't really care for some people and are just being professional with them. Which sounds odd as I'm not speaking of dealing with business partners but of going out on a saturday night. Like they don't like certain people but maintain good relations with them. Well, at least in public. I seriously doubt they have any contact in private.
    quadra, especially if rational.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    This person has a tendency to sometimes be a party pooper. That quality of giving straight up estimates I mentioned before. This can really rain on people's parades. Like say we were in a group, you know, went out on a friday, and two people had harmonicas. Well, one person, but the two of them were into it. And they were getting carried away by the spirit kind of. Well, this person was very blunt about the suckage of the learner of the two. The learner took it as purposeful discouragement and wowed to not give up, almost in a spite kind of thing. The person wasn't too upset about this. Actually not at all. The learner visibly was. If only a little.
    Consistent with INTp, at least with PoLR and a schizoid personality structure in a psychoanalytic perspective.

    Also this person is the type that always has a say in everything, some little piece of information, opinion, advice and so on. They're the "Did you know that..." type. And arrogant about it. Like, if they think they're correct they don't back off. Even if it is a small matter. They still feel the need to "put you down" and correct you. But much like I mentioned before I'm not sure how to interpret this.
    Perfectly consistent with the INTp hypothesis. Every single aspect of it is typical INTp behaviour as it is described in the type descriptions. (And of course I am exactly like this myself, too.)

    It seem like they are being nasty on purpose but after getting past it, it seem as if they don't even care about you. Like they were indifferent to you the whole time. Odd really.
    Yes, I know that it might seem odd to other people. They are not nasty on purpose, but it is correct that they are, in a sense, indifferent to you. It is an essential part of the schizoid personality structure that you are indifferent to praise and criticism.

    A talent they have is making order. But it's a subtle one. And not a propagated one. Like they don't really talk or consider it in any way. When they do it they do it and nobody notices a thing. Well, not really nobody.
    Consistent with the hypothesis.

    They have a "thing" with doing things properly, right, correctly, and so on. But this is not something that goes away like water under a bridge. They have to keep pushing it. Like I mentioned when they do it feels so mean but so insensitive at the same time. And they never let it go, even the minor issues. They have to make absolutely sure "they've got it right". And no amount of friendship, loyalty will stand between that.
    What you describe is an extremely typical INTp in behaviour and attitude, with more than a slight dose of Asperger/Schizoid traits as well. Obvious PoLR. "Choosing the "right option" and "developing or choosing the right ideology" are manifestations of , according to Dmitri Lytov.

    And they also don't lie. Which I think is a lie.
    It is not a lie. The truth is that they don't lie, and this is an essential and very typical Asperger trait, that is also perfectly consistent with INTp.

    As everybody lies. I think they do lie, but lie about it.
    No, everybody does not lie -- they are the the exception to the general "rule". They don't lie about it, they are perfectly honest, even thought that might be hard to understand if you don't think like them.

    Like they have some sort of an issue with it. As if they need to appear prudent or something.
    No, that is a totally incorrect interpretation. You misunderstand them completely if you think that.

    Pathetic really. And I think their need for being correct about thing is also a part of this.
    Pathetic or not, I think you should try to understand them correctly before you judge them.

    And I think they're perfectionist. Even though the claim not to be.
    Correct. Perfectionism is both an ILI and an Asperger trait.

    They align unaligned object on furniture and stuff and can quickly organize things, "bring order". And when confronted they go silent. They can't explain it. I think it's because of our lazy ass culture where people are brought up to admire and propagate laziness and underachievement, so they "try to fit in" by pretending to have adopted the group norms. Which again I find pathetic. But then again, they might have their own best interests at heart, which is something I can relate to.
    I don't think this is a type important aspect, so I leave it as it is.

    However, up until recently, when I took a look at the elements and their usage a little more, took a look at their essence more carefully, I was convinced this person is a Fe type.
    The person you have described is absolutely not a Fe type -- unless you have described him/her incorrectly.

    They're the classical Fe group person, cracking jokes, laughing, generally bringing comedy and laughs to the group. But it doesn't fit.
    No, it doesn't fit the person you have described at all. And I have no idea how you can think that they're the classical Fe goup person. It makes no sense at all.

    The individual is anything but emotive at heart, in fact, even when in this fun mood they seem so depersonalized, insensitive. If they show some sort of personal sentiments I cant help but feel it's fake for them. That they feel nothing but have a social mask on. Because when it is time to comfort people, they shy away. Well, not so much shy away as drop that image. They aid by not being warm, fluffy and cuddly, but by laying it out how they see it and expecting the person to *work* their problems out. And I emphasized the word "work" purposefully here.
    Here you try to interpret the person's behaviour, and your interpretatio is most likely incorrect, based on what you have said so far.

    When I reed the Fe descriptions now and think about it, other then a superficial similarity, they don't seem like it.
    Good that you realize that now.

    To take from the wiki, they do seem to have a keen grasp of what people are passionate about, excitement and liveliness, agitation and irritation, shock and amazement, distress and gloominess, but I wouldn't say at their core. In all honesty, I don't think they care about any of that. Especially group spirit.
    I think you're right.

    Even though they seem to be masters at it. But it feels like it's just fake, as if it's a play, some sort social adaptation brought on by compensation, as if it was something they learned and became good at it.
    I don't understand why you think that they are masters at it. You haven't described them as good at that sort of thing. What have you left out in the description? Your interpretations don't seem to be grounded in what you can observe.

    Like I said, they have a tendency to want to do thing "right" and will have no qualms, or should I say regards for personal sentiments, in doing so. And this feels off about a Fe dominant.
    Very much so, yes. I sounds much more like Fe PoLR.

    What Fe dominant stops a joke to correct somebody on providing wrong information.
    No one.

    However, I can't shake the impression of Fe from them.
    Why not? I get no Fe vibes whatsoever from your description.

    They're so playful, and so Fe-cute. They go aww at puppies, they like pretty colors, shiny objects, very much use the Fe hyper talk "OMG that is SO COOL!!11!1!1!!1". I guess you could say they love life, but I'm sure that's not it. It's when you get close to them that bothers me. On the surface, from a far, they seem straightforward Fe type, case closed, but up close and personal, not at all.
    I think you have an incorrect view of Fe in general. It really seems so anyway. Naïvety and acting almost childish, showing a "pure" fascination with things like you mention, is not Fe.

    They always seem to propagate a reduction of Fe, toning things down.
    Exactly. That's how ILIs are described. The essence of what you describe seems to 100 % INTp.

    In terms of personal values it seem the opposite, straight forward Te. However, they do still remain carefree and playful, childlike really.
    The first time I said that INTps are childlike (more so than the Alpha INTjs) must have been more than a year ago, about two years maybe, I don't remember exactly. But I remember that people had the incorrect idea even back then that just because you are an Alpha type you are also childish, which is ridiculous and a misuse and a misunderstanding of the quadras.

    Well, not constantly really, but up close and personal they still, naturally, act Fe-ish at times. So I'm just not sure about them.
    The main problem seems to be that you have an incorrect understanind of . If you correct that misunderstanding, it all starts to make perfect sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    This person has a tendency to sometimes be a party pooper. That quality of giving straight up estimates I mentioned before. This can really rain on people's parades. Like say we were in a group, you know, went out on a friday, and two people had harmonicas. Well, one person, but the two of them were into it. And they were getting carried away by the spirit kind of. Well, this person was very blunt about the suckage of the learner of the two. The learner took it as purposeful discouragement and wowed to not give up, almost in a spite kind of thing. The person wasn't too upset about this. Actually not at all. The learner visibly was. If only a little.
    Te, low Fe, and perhaps also confidence on Ne.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Also this person is the type that always has a say in everything, some little piece of information, opinion, advice and so on. They're the "Did you know that..." type.
    That's very, very stereotypical Te ego behavior, especially if Te dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And arrogant about it. Like, if they think they're correct they don't back off. Even if it is a small matter. They still feel the need to "put you down" and correct you.
    That's your interpretation, I wouldn't say they are seeing it as "putting you down" at all. But it makes perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    But much like I mentioned before I'm not sure how to interpret this. It seem like they are being nasty on purpose but after getting past it, it seem as if they don't even care about you. Like they were indifferent to you the whole time. Odd really.
    Again, the Te and not Fe thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    A talent they have is making order. But it's a subtle one. And not a propagated one. Like they don't really talk or consider it in any way. When they do it they do it and nobody notices a thing. Well, not really nobody.

    They have a "thing" with doing things properly, right, correctly, and so on. But this is not something that goes away like water under a bridge. They have to keep pushing it. Like I mentioned when they do it feels so mean but so insensitive at the same time. And they never let it go, even the minor issues. They have to make absolutely sure "they've got it right". And no amount of friendship, loyalty will stand between that.
    That suggests EJ temperament, along with the Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And they also don't lie. Which I think is a lie. As everybody lies. I think they do lie, but lie about it. Like they have some sort of an issue with it. As if they need to appear prudent or something. Pathetic really. And I think their need for being correct about thing is also a part of this.
    No, again, it's Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And I think they're perfectionist. Even though the claim not to be. They align unaligned object on furniture and stuff and can quickly organize things, "bring order".
    That's very typical ESTj.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    And when confronted they go silent. They can't explain it. I think it's because of our lazy ass culture where people are brought up to admire and propagate laziness and underachievement, so they "try to fit in" by pretending to have adopted the group norms. Which again I find pathetic. But then again, they might have their own best interests at heart, which is something I can relate to.
    I can't say anything about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    However, up until recently, when I took a look at the elements and their usage a little more, took a look at their essence more carefully, I was convinced this person is a Fe type. They're the classical Fe group person, cracking jokes, laughing, generally bringing comedy and laughs to the group.
    ESTjs are often like that, but it's not Fe as such; it's Si and Fe role.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    But it doesn't fit. The individual is anything but emotive at heart, in fact, even when in this fun mood they seem so depersonalized, insensitive. If they show some sort of personal sentiments I cant help but feel it's fake for them. That they feel nothing but have a social mask on. Because when it is time to comfort people, they shy away. Well, not so much shy away as drop that image. They aid by not being warm, fluffy and cuddly, but by laying it out how they see it and expecting the person to *work* their problems out. And I emphasized the word "work" purposefully here.
    Very typical Te, especially Te EJ behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    When I reed the Fe descriptions now and think about it, other then a superficial similarity, they don't seem like it. To take from the wiki, they do seem to have a keen grasp of what people are passionate about, excitement and liveliness, agitation and irritation, shock and amazement, distress and gloominess, but I wouldn't say at their core. In all honesty, I don't think they care about any of that. Especially group spirit. Even though they seem to be masters at it. But it feels like it's just fake, as if it's a play, some sort social adaptation brought on by compensation, as if it was something they learned and became good at it. Like I said, they have a tendency to want to do thing "right" and will have no qualms, or should I say regards for personal sentiments, in doing so. And this feels off about a Fe dominant. What Fe dominant stops a joke to correct somebody on providing wrong information. I mean, it's a joke, or retelling of a funny personal experience, people are suppose to tell it their way, to make some alterations to the tale, to give it that personal feel to it. But they always function as if everything has to be 100% correct. And they don't even do this purposefully, they just naturally do things like "So there I was, *chuckle* all alone in the middle of the night *buts in* actually it was early evening, about 9 if I remember correctly, 9.15 *buts out* well, thank you, regardless, there I was...".
    That is so typical of Te dominant and Fe role, I even used that same kind of situation in the wiki description of Fe role.



    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    However, I can't shake the impression of Fe from them. They're so playful, and so Fe-cute. They go aww at puppies, they like pretty colors, shiny objects,
    That's the Si, not the Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    very much use the Fe hyper talk "OMG that is SO COOL!!11!1!1!!1". I guess you could say they love life, but I'm sure that's not it. It's when you get close to them that bothers me. On the surface, from a far, they seem straightforward Fe type, case closed, but up close and personal, not at all. They always seem to propagate a reduction of Fe, toning things down. In terms of personal values it seem the opposite, straight forward Te. However, they do still remain carefree and playful, childlike really. Well, not constantly really, but up close and personal they still, naturally, act Fe-ish at times. So I'm just not sure about them.
    To me it makes perfect sense. The "Fe" as in wanting a pleasant atmosphere and the like, playful, carefree, childlike, is the Si preference. What you see that doesn't seem to fit that, it's the Te-Fi preference.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    On a personal note, that description describes me to a very large extent (throwing a bone to the crowd that types me as ESTj.). What's "missing" is precisely the bits on concern with puppies, objects, cuteness, etc; and the "cracking jokes, laughing, generally bringing comedy and laughs to the group" bit which is not me at all, not in the slightest.

    So, yes, snegledmaca, I'm as much a monster as this person, but without the "cute" bits. Your nightmare.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat and I seem to agree that the person is a Te type with low Fe, and we seem to agree on some other things as well.

    It all comes down to the temperament. I saw indications of introversion and an at least possible IP temperament, but that conclusion is based on rather thin evidence. If the person does not have IP temperament but instead EJ, then Expat's analysis could be correct. If the person has IP temperament, then I think my analysis is correct.

    And in any case the parts which I said were extremely INTp are still extremely INTp, as you have described them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Really? Why? What makes you say that? Why not some other type?
    The person reminds me of 2 ESTJs I know - I can't give you much more than that - sorry. - see Expat's analysis. Some of the behaviour you wrote about describes an ESTj friend of mine to a t - it's uncanny. For example, what you said about the person saying they're lazy and yet always delivering results ... and that they need everything to be in order ... the need to give advice ... the pretend concern for people - it's like a duty rather than coming from within isn't it? ... priding themselves on being truthful to the point of ridiculousness ... the whole 'cutesy' stuff (which strikes me as fake - like they have this need to appear that way to soften their personality or something) ... but anyway - yeah, just everything.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    I didn't read it all, but I got the impresstion of ESTj without realizing why. Probably because he's firstly dry (that's the FIRST thing to notice about him), and he's motivated by work, they don't fit your standards for "responsible person" so I don't think he's beta ST (lazy and "not responsible" even though they really get things done when they need it).

    Setting criteria and really trying to achieve a goal with all effort seems like an indicator for ESTjs and ENFjs. I don't know why. Really going toward a goal with all that EJ energy. ENTjs seem to go by gut feeling and just reach for the end goal and ESFjs always think they have a plan but they never seem to follow it through. But he doen't sound ENFj at all, so that's another thing that points to ESTj. And you say he "has a say in everything" - this is very very clearly EJ trait IMO. and as program function aligns the world according to subjective belief of how things work. And they actually assume that this is the true nature of what they see (not just a subjective view). This makes EJs extremely opinionated. and domiants do the same, but usually don't share their world view as forcefully as the extroverted types, so it doesn't show that strongly.


    However, I can't shake the impression of Fe from them. They're so playful, and so Fe-cute. They go aww at puppies, they like pretty colors, shiny objects, very much use the Fe hyper talk "OMG that is SO COOL!!11!1!1!!1". I guess you could say they love life, but I'm sure that's not it. It's when you get close to them that bothers me. On the surface, from a far, they seem straightforward Fe type, case closed, but up close and personal, not at all. They always seem to propagate a reduction of Fe, toning things down. In terms of personal values it seem the opposite, straight forward Te. However, they do still remain carefree and playful, childlike really. Well, not constantly really, but up close and personal they still, naturally, act Fe-ish at times. So I'm just not sure about them.
    I'm not like that! ...except when I see something cute and there are other betas or my husband nearby. So maybe I am like that a little bit. But that's not what people normally notice about me. And no one would start describing an dominant by calling him dry and stating they're motivated by work. That just wouldn't work at all.

    reading more bits and pieces... perfectionist, doing things "properly", social mask, etc. some of the worst ENFj traits. But I still can't imagine being called "dry" as the first thing.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Well, it wasn't so much dry, as you keep stressing it, but lacking concern and enthusiasm when it should be present. Like, it has an ability to completely be absent. Actually, if you have seen the show enterprise, like the character data. The person can at times, without warning, be data. Like taking jokes literally. They often respond with "... but that makes no sense" to jokes. Their natural state is that they don't expect jokes/fun and you have to tell them something is a joke/fun in order for them to get engaged otherwise they would be cracking their head at how exactly what you said is possible. Just like data.

    And I have considered ENFj for this person. Could you go more into why you think they are/aren't ENFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Well, it wasn't so much dry, as you keep stressing it, but lacking concern and enthusiasm when it should be present. Like, it has an ability to completely be absent. Actually, if you have seen the show enterprise, like the character data. The person can at times, without warning, be data. Like taking jokes literally. They often respond with "... but that makes no sense" to jokes. Their natural state is that they don't expect jokes/fun and you have to tell them something is a joke/fun in order for them to get engaged otherwise they would be cracking their head at how exactly what you said is possible. Just like data.
    And just like Asperger. What you describe is typical Asperger/autistic behaviour. And the character Data of course fits all the criteria for having Asperger, except that he is not a real human being. Data is an IT type, and if you really think that the person you are describing is similar to Data, then my INTp hypothesis is strongly corroborated. At the moment it makes more sense than the ESTj hypothesis. And it makes absolutely no sense to consider ENFj for a person with such a behaviour. None at all.

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    Many of the details seem compatible with ENFj:
    *perfectionism,
    *planning
    *get the impression they don't really care for some people and are just being professional with them. (just can't relax around people I barely know)

    Even more things that are very non-ENFj:
    *lacks concern for other people
    *they're lazy as hell (I procrastinate, but I have a tendency to work too hard for a goal)
    *seems like they invest little to no effort
    * they make (college) "sound" easy
    * (they don't do) enough to be consumed by performance, achievement.
    *even when in this fun mood they seem so depersonalized, insensitive.
    *...

    Their natural state is that they don't expect jokes/fun and you have to tell them something is a joke/fun in order for them to get engaged otherwise they would be cracking their head at how exactly what you said is possible.
    not ENFj at all. Yeah, sure, sometimes I don't get a joke. And sometimes the joke is just too imaginative for me. "uh, that's just ...stupid." But usually it's me who's going too far with the goofy joking. And whenever someone says anything that can be used against them, I will try to make a joke about it. (when I'm with people I know well)

    Even if I'm very openmided about the variability of ENFjs, there are too many things that I just can't agree with. It's much more likely that he's ESTj.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    I got an INTp vibe. A lot of my reasons Phaedrus touched on, but I think people are mistaking them for EJ because of some work-rate thing. she said they're lazy, but that when they do something they go all out...this is typically IP behavior, i.e., I'll be inert but completely absorbed in what I actually care about, but eventually it will die out, I will be inert again and then eventually get into something. she also said they break it down into parts to track how they're doing...INTps are process-oriented. the apparent lack of Fe doesn't seem like a role function, it seems polr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    she [snegledmaca is a male, despite the "a" at the end of the name, which most people associate with female names] said they're lazy, but that when they do something they go all out...this is typically IP behavior,
    Correct. I had the same thought when I read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I'll be inert but completely absorbed in what I actually care about, but eventually it will die out, I will be inert again and then eventually get into something.
    I am exactly like that myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snedlegmaca
    The person gets motivated by work. Like an assignment, deadline, responsibility is something that can bring them out of a depression. They seem to set their feeling, problems aside in order to "perform adequately". Which I find so odd. Primarily because they're lazy as hell and work ethics is not something you'd associate with them. yes, they find some temporary leave out of their inert state

    But somehow it always seems like they invest little to no effort. And they are always bitching about how they are lazy, how they should be doing something, how they have some sort of "responsibility" to do. yup, IP temperament
    the way you described them points more towards Fe polr than role. it just seems more of a prevalent problem. also, the playfulness aspect could be generally correlated with irrationality. The reason why ExTj doesnt work is because they are IP temperament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That's the Si, not the Fe.



    To me it makes perfect sense. The "Fe" as in wanting a pleasant atmosphere and the like, playful, carefree, childlike, is the Si preference. What you see that doesn't seem to fit that, it's the Te-Fi preference.

    i like this explanation quite a bit. i'm pretty sure that going "aww!" at puppies and wanting a pleasant atmosphere can't entirely be something attributable to Fe alone, but when i read that it makes more sense. sort of like those milla jovovich interviews where some posters said she acted "like a little girl."
    Last edited by implied; 03-16-2008 at 10:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i like this explanation quite a bit. i'm pretty sure that going "aww!" at puppies and wanting a pleasant atmosphere can't entirely be something attributable to Fe alone, but when i read that it makes more sense. sort of like those milla jovovich interviews where some posters said she acted "like a little girl."
    To be honest, this makes me wonder if I haven't been identifying Si preferences as Fe preferences. For the most part, every single person I've met has been alpha of beta. To know almost no deltas or gammas seems strange to me and looking at it it seems more likely that I'm simply mistaken in identifying people's types. Perhaps I have no real grasp on the informational elements. Perhaps some are actually delta, or even gamma.

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    Actually going "aww" at puppies could be either a mimicry-joke that hasn't been understood by snegledmanca, or simply Fi (both would make more sense than Si).
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    It's not a joke, and that's certain. The person goes aww at puppies because they genuinely find them cute. And how do you see this as Fi and not Fe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    It's not a joke, and that's certain. The person goes aww at puppies because they genuinely find them cute. And how do you see this as Fi and not Fe?
    Because everything else you say about him points away from Fe. Which gives to me the only option that he's a Te type using his Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Actually going "aww" at puppies could be either a mimicry-joke that hasn't been understood by snegledmanca, or simply Fi (both would make more sense than Si).
    saying aww to puppies? i mean, my dad does this all the time, goes pretty emo around puppies & children, and i wouldn't really consider him that strong on the Fi. it's just generally preferable to wanting to beat the crap out of either. wanting to own 8 puppies might be something else, but puppies and infants are also cute for biological reasons. i still think that Si isn't a bad explanation, given that this person doesn't seem to be Fe. somehow this sort of behavior doesn't really strike me as something i'd consider super typical to INTps/ENTjs, especially considering the ones here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Because everything else you say about him points away from Fe. Which gives to me the only option that he's a Te type using his Fi.
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't it make more sense to think, if the person, who btw I don't know why you are calling male as I did not say they were male, is Te then it's more likely that would be Fe as it is conscious? As in, both Fe and Fi are weak, but Fe is conscious and can be used at will? And also, how would going aww at puppies quality as being Fi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    saying aww to puppies? i mean, my dad does this all the time, goes pretty emo around puppies & children, and i wouldn't really consider him that strong on the Fi. it's just generally preferable to wanting to beat the crap out of either. wanting to own 8 puppies might be something else, but puppies and infants are also cute for biological reasons. i still think that Si isn't a bad explanation, given that this person doesn't seem to be Fe.
    What I mean is, that the guy is a Te type, and that his saying "awww" to puppies is his Fi, not that he's a Fi type. I actually do not understand how it could be Si? What's your explanation?

    Sneg: I don't believe that the role function could play such a part (it's a personal belief), especially if the guy is as strong in Te as you describe him (which would make the Fe even weaker). Going "aww" at puppies is not specifically Fe, but it is definitely a quality of feeling functions, generally speaking (no, negativists, I am not saying that only feeling types do it - only that whenever a person does it, he-she is using a feeling function). Given that my reasoning excludes Fe, then it can only be Fi, which would be perfectly consistent with all the other parts of your description. As anecdotal evidence, consider the way ISTps's hidden agenda is often strongly tied to a love for animals.
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    why are we trying to type someone based off of the fact that they say "awww" to puppies?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    why are we trying to type someone based off of the fact that they say "awww" to puppies?
    because puppies are incredibly important in socionics theory. duh. just ask carla.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    because puppies are incredibly important in socionics theory. duh. just ask carla.
    actually, that's truer than you think and your given example is precisely why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    actually, that's truer than you think and your given example is precisely why.
    eh, i meant it rather sarcastically, of course. but i agree that they probably are really important for quite a few reasons hah.
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    saying "aww" at puppies could be related to a number of things that don't have to do with functions. only a stereotypical understanding of Fe associates it with stupid stuff like that.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    saying "aww" at puppies could be related to a number of things that don't have to do with functions. only a stereotypical understanding of Fe associates it with stupid stuff like that.

    Actually "Awwww" is the expression of an internal dynamic
    of an object: you see the puppy, you (the object) have a subjective reaction (internal) that is not related to your persisting attitude towards the thing that caused it (dynamics of an object). Expression of this state indicates value or comfort with its cause.

    However this, individually, means next to nothing about type, but consistent displays could be an indicator of value/conscious strength.

    One step at a time :wink:
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Actually "Awwww" is the expression of an internal dynamic
    of an object: you see the puppy, you (the object) have a subjective reaction (internal) that is not related to your persisting attitude towards the thing that caused it (dynamics of an object). Expression of this state indicates value or comfort with its cause.
    that is stupid. you could rationalize that for any function. what if the person was brought up on a farm where they raised dogs, thus having a large affinity for them? My point is that people are focusing on the wrong things for typing this person. Every piece of information in this description points to weak and unvalued Fe, yet suddenly everyone thinks the person values it because they get happy around puppies.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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