Experiences with Kindred or Comparative Relations

[Creepy-female]

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[ScarlettLux]

Haha, totally cute dolphin (regarding the smilies dilemma)

Anyway - while I can't say I know too many ILIs at close range, I can attest to the fact that they seem quite interesting to me from a distance, but I really do not think they think the same of me. I am really quite fascinated by their thought processes, and although they are very harsh sometimes, I find it funny almost, to keep prodding at them with just to see their uncomfortable/strange reactions.. or just no reactions at all. LOL.

If I am EIE - ESE would be my comparative. That would be interesting ... I do know quite a few ESEs at closer range than ILIs. We seem to get along smoothly at first. One ESE I knew before I fell out with because she was a totally manipulative bitch (but that's entirely individual so ...) ... while others I get along splendidly with. I basically rub along fairly find individually with them, we can chat about just anything, pretty comfortable after some time. I had some trouble with another ESE, close friend of my LSI best friends... THAT was pretty sticky. I think that pointed toward my being IEI in terms of the Supervisory relationship holding true.. then again, other ESEs I know don't seem to be as paranoid as she was. Or maybe it was actually just my own paranoia ... but let's not get into that, shall we?

All I know is, is not comfortable for me at ALL, and boring. Example: ESE teaching LSI how to knit while I just stare glumly at them.

is not comfortable for ESE at ALL, and intimidating. Example: EIE having long, drawn out and intense discussion with LSI & LII about very themes of past, future, connections in time, mysticism .. while ESE stalks away in dismay and nurses a feeling of isolation. She probably thought I was "stealing" the dominants away from her.

Yep, that was a pretty good summary.

[marooned]

The way I sometimes see it is you agree on the same "thing" in terms of 1st function information... and although you sense this intuitively, it's difficult to confirm it... what you say is never said in quite the right way to them, and what they say is never said in quite the right way to you... so you try to correct each other ad infinitum, when you agree on the base function presentation, but disagree on the presentation of that (or on the way you see/express it). You know you're on the same page, you just can't speak the same language about being on the same page... and also what you want to help the other with, you tend to want to use your creative function, which just happens to be their PoLR, so you can't help them. And they can't help you. So in that sense it's frustrating. But if you do use your creative function, yes, it hits their PoLR... and it can ricochet back and forth like that, getting no where.

[BLauritson]

Hmm.. despite all the horror stories you hear about comparative relations, I've never had any real problems with IEIs (apart from one, although that was down to her as an individual rather than her IEI-ness. I posted about that in another thread somewhere, I forget where now, but alas I digress). Basically a few years back I had quite a close IEI friend, whom I imagine was probably an Ni subtype. Yeah, we had our differences which we were both aware of, but it never really got in the way. I don't know if subtype plays a significant role in this (although I'm inclined to think it does; I'll write a bit more on this in a bit), but I've never felt threatened by Fe-creatives at all, or at least not as far as I can remember. Hmm.. I feel like there's more to say here but I can't think of anything. Anyway, about the subtypes bit, I remember aaaaages ago on this forum there was a thread about subtypes affecting relations with adjacent quadras, where people were asked to state their subtype and say, in their experience, who they got on better with out of.. I think it was illusionary and comparative vs. semi-dual and look-a-like. I can't remember exactly now, but it was something along those lines. Anyway, it was generally (based on the responses) that accepting subtypes got on better with comparatives and illusionaries, whilst creative subtypes got on better with semi-duals and look-a-likes. I'm not so sure on the illusionary/semi-dual bit but I'm pretty sure about the accepting subtypes getting on better with comparatives and the creative subtypes getting on better with look-a-likes. I think also if the subtype theory as outlined by XoX here - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=12650 is true then that would tie in with the comparative vs. look-a-like thingy there.

Of course it could be that I just happen to be the one in a million that gets on with my comparative and therefore none of what I wrote above makes any sense whatsoever in the real world, but who knows.

[FDG]

I do not get along well with ESTjs, ever. But that tends to be true for other non-ENTj EJs too, even if less so for ESFjs.

[Expat]

I think they tend to be like, you wonder how the comparative partner can be so good and clever in some things, but so blind and clumsy in others.

[jewels]

for me, the comparative thing was easy to start and i was really into him for a few months.
Then after he let his guard down, he started to insult me constantly/do things that offended me every hour or so. he had no idea, and thought I was wrong to be offended/refused to try to change. Followed by him trying hard to change, faking being what I wanted, adn eventually that fell apart.

All in all, icky.

But still, there's a lot of mutual "hmm that person is interesting/mysterious, etc."

Followed by "why the heck are you doing x? or y? or z? ahhhh!"

[Blaze]

The way I sometimes see it is you agree on the same "thing" in terms of 1st function information... and although you sense this intuitively, it's difficult to confirm it... what you say is never said in quite the right way to them, and what they say is never said in quite the right way to you... so you try to correct each other ad infinitum, when you agree on the base function presentation, but disagree on the presentation of that (or on the way you see/express it). You know you're on the same page, you just can't speak the same language about being on the same page... and also what you want to help the other with, you tend to want to use your creative function, which just happens to be their PoLR, so you can't help them. And they can't help you. So in that sense it's frustrating. But if you do use your creative function, yes, it hits their PoLR... and it can ricochet back and forth like that, getting no where.

i agree with this. it's like you really "feel" them....but yet it doesn't really work. this relation is better for groups than for one on one.

[jessica129]

Yeah. I admire them in lots of ways. It's just that I find myself bewildered that they're so obstinate and "blind" to things that are obvious to me. It's frustrating.

Same.

I have an ISFP friend and I could very much see why someone would be attracted to them... but my god is it a stressful relationship. I cannot seem to keep up the enthusiasm to keep it going and it's a shame because I can see their good qualities...we just don't mesh.

[force my hand]

How did I miss this?

........Ok, the rant's done. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? (Btw, now I'm paranoid an ISTp will come along and say "You're. Completely. Wrong. Because. Blah. Blah." or my personal favorite, "Cute, but irrelevant.")

Why would we say that? This is actually relevent, unlike your other comment regarding me personally (which was cute, if totally pointless).

EDITED TO ADD: I was dying to add smilies to this post. It looks so long and intimidating and boring and unpalatable. But I didn't. I was afraid someone would criticize my irrelevant way of looking at the world. So, no smilies. Just for you, ISTps.

Well, aren't you just a little drama queen. Cute, but irrelevent.

[jessica129]

That's how I feel about my comparatives too. They sort of fascinate me, because I just can't seem to get on the same wavelength as them. I'm constantly wondering what they're thinking. But yeah, it does get a bit old after awhile. Sometimes I feel like yelling "PLEASE SAY SOMETHING!! TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE FEELNG!!" just to shake things up a bit ... which is probably an ISTp's worst nightmare .... This ISTp friend of mine only opens up to me when he's drunk, which makes me wonder. I find I get on best with ISTps when we're both doing something together, like sports or something - or just listening to music. Or when we're with other people ... it's funny, I'll be sitting there with an ISTp and we'll be having this boring or nonexistant conversation and then someone else comes and joins in, and suddenly we're all animated and interested in each other again - even if the other person isn't talking much. It's weird.

That's almost exactly how i feel, almost word for word when it comes to ISFP's. I thought I was evasive when it comes to emotions but trying to get them to open up to me is like pulling teeth. I'm not used to someone else not being willing to open up...usually that's my problem. It get's too stagnant...I don't know how to keep the enthusiasm up. We get along on the surface level but beyond that, it's a very draining relationship for me. Always wondering what the other is thinking and not being able to get much out of them, it's not very healthy for either. But i do notice that in the company of others, the whole situation changes and we get closer and sort of gravitate back to each other only to get bored again.

[liveandletlive]

im friends with a bunch of SLEs and i've never really had a negative experience with them. maybe it's our "aggressor-ness" but we just tend to poke fun at our PoLRs and it's fine. one thing i do notice- which i remember reading somewhere- is that comparatives try to keep each other on the same level when around others which i completely agree with. SLEs and i will laugh at others together, cry with others together, whatever... almost like partners in crime as well. overall, IMO it's quite refreshing to be with someone who uses the same leading function as me and can be quite fun.

[liveandletlive]

Yeah, I enjoy being with SEEs.

[Rubicon]

That's almost exactly how i feel, almost word for word when it comes to ISFP's. I thought I was evasive when it comes to emotions but trying to get them to open up to me is like pulling teeth. I'm not used to someone else not being willing to open up...usually that's my problem.

That's interesting .... It never occurred to me that they may want to know what my feelings are. lol I thought that would make them feel uncomfortable.

[jessica129]

That's interesting .... It never occurred to me that they may want to know what my feelings are. lol I thought that would make them feel uncomfortable.

Generally, it doesn't make me uncomfortable when people express their thoughts on where the relationship stands. If it's excessive and dramatic, it makes me uncomfortable but I need someone who is good at expressing themselves or things get nowhere fast. It's kind of hard to be in a relationship or friendship if the two of you can't get past the aquaintence phase....and that's how I usually feel with ISFP's. I don't know if I scare them into not wanting to vocalize their feelings but that's the impression I get. I'm usually the one waiting for the other person to do the "expressing" and I don't find ISFP's particularly good at that. But maybe i'm just generalizing.

[jessica129]

No - I'd say that's true. I'm not particularly good at expressing myself without encouragement. I guess I don't want to put my feelings 'out there' without knowing that the person really wants to know what they are. It's not that I'm 'scared' - I'd just feel like an idiot opening my heart to someone who I wasn't sure really cared about what I had to say ... which sounds a bit dramatic , but anyway ...

And that's exactly how i feel so you can see why it becomes a problem in these relations, haha. Sometimes I am tempted to ask how they feel but i'm not sure if they feel anything at all towards me so I don't say anything and we're both left with that underlying tension as to where things stand. I guess I could sum this up as extremely frustrating.

[Kristiina]

ESE and EIE - can't see how that could work. I can not see how i could be happy with a real ESE.

when i get panicky - the way that LSIs help me is by,
a) telling me I'm wrong and telling me to stop panicking ands then giving me a really simple solutution that fixes all problems.
b) making it seem like the problem is indeed extremely difficult and trying to brainstorm solutions giving me piss poor solutions. Then I get all practical and say, "no I have a better solution" and then I start acting like I know all there is to know about the problem and i am perfectly skilled to fix it.

all in all - if an EIE panicks, help them brainstorm solutions, offering solutions that technically fix the problem, but are somewhat too simplistic for the perfectionist EIE. This way I start thinking that they are really trying to help, but I am much more capable of doing it myself to get better results.

[Kristiina]

You are so much more self-sufficient than this EIE is. I'm just not sure how to get it into the ESE's head that he isn't. How to get her to let him...lead somehow.

awww this is so sweeet! thanks.

[UDP]

ESE and EIE - can't see how that could work. I can not see how i could be happy with a real ESE.

when i get panicky - the way that LSIs help me is by,
a) telling me I'm wrong and telling me to stop panicking ands then giving me a really simple solutution that fixes all problems.
b) making it seem like the problem is indeed extremely difficult and trying to brainstorm solutions giving me piss poor solutions. Then I get all practical and say, "no I have a better solution" and then I start acting like I know all there is to know about the problem and i am perfectly skilled to fix it.

all in all - if an EIE panicks, help them brainstorm solutions, offering solutions that technically fix the problem, but are somewhat too simplistic for the perfectionist EIE. This way I start thinking that they are really trying to help, but I am much more capable of doing it myself to get better results.

I bet people who just tell you you're wrong and why and don't kiss your butt really bother you, don't they

[JuJu]

There is not a single thread on this forum exclusively devoted to Kindred relations (e.g. ENFj-ESFj.)

I am starting a relationship with my kindred.

Anyone ever been in one? How did it go? Pitfalls?

All info appreciated.

[07490]

JuJu My advice is to stay away.

[DirectorAbbie]

I know of two kindreds. One is my brother's boss. The other is one of the two main theatre tech people. (The other is a female ESI. I'm an actress in theatre.) He and I get along well because we both want to get things done right and we both know what we can do and what we can do better than other people. Good coworker and pleasant to be around, but not someone who I would be attracted to for more than a few minutes.

My dad's parents were kindred. Farmers. They got along great (although he didn't appreciate her emotional talk). She (ENFp) did most of the talking. They loved each other and were great companions, but I don't know much about their relationship.

[Mattie]

I have not been in a romantic kindred relationship, but my best friend of about 11 years is an NeTi. We had a pretty calm relationship while we were in middle and high school, it most likely was because we weren't around each other as much and had our own separate social groups since we went to different schools. I mostly dropped out of contact with her when I went off to another city for college, and I think this made I realize we really missed each other and valued each other's friendship a lot more. We used to be two out of a close group of four (the other two being FeNi and TeNi), and we were the only two really survive separation. After I came back to school down here is when the problems started.

There were a few points of tension that caused (and sometimes still does) a lot of turbulence in our friendship. The first obvious one was attention. We both gain a lot of attention when we're in our social groups (and we've jumped through/assimilated into many) and there was also a lot of male attention on both of us. Eventually there would be a struggle for attention, one getting jealous of the other when everyone focused on one of us (we typically had groups of friends of mostly males), and that sometimes created problems.

Another issue was that she would unintentionally hurt my feelings, and I wouldn't be outright about it. She would say things I would find callous and hurt me, but I expected her to pick up on it, which didn't happen. So when I finally exhale all that bothered me, she barely if at all remembered any of the remarks that offended me. So I've learned to be more upfront with my feelings, and she asks more often if I'm feeling alright when I'm not totally upbeat.

Another is a supposed "objectivity" vs "subjectivity" battle which always trips us up, but I think I'm learning how to avoid this conflict. This typically has to do when I'm having relationship problems, and my friend will give me what she thinks, unbiased even though I'm her best friend and might be looking for someone to just agree with me. I treat everything with a case-by-case method, while she has a more "judicial" way of looking at situations, by an already established "objective" standard. A lot of times when I'm upset, I look for comfort and support, but I tend to feel criticized and over emotional whenever I go to her with these sorts of problems. I fear that she would feel left out as a best friend if she didn't know my going-ons and thoughts, but I can only tell her things I don't mind getting criticized on, or that could easily be shrugged off.

But it is an overall great friendship, because we have so many common interests that don't really deal with relationships and emotions, we can stay away from these conflicts. We bounce a lot of ideas off each other and have a random sense of humor. We bring both intimacy and pleasant atmosphere whenever we have get-togethers. She also doesn't mind my advice, even inspired, because to her she feels like I've "proven" that I'm capable with people and relationship advice, and therefore finds my observations valid. It only seems to be a problem when I'm having issues, but I think it's because I don't have many valuers as friends, even fewer Delta, so I rely on her with my needs.

I don't think I could ever consider NeTi as a viable choice for a romantic relationship, if all other things were equal besides type. For some reason, I get easily annoyed with male NeTi, and I think it's because there typically isn't any common ground between us to relate to. Female NeTi and I tend to find common interests easily and quickly, and then we connect over what I'll assume is an style of thinking and be good. Male NeTi, in my experience, whip out rather quickly, which annoys me without them realizing that I'm not liking what's going on.

Well, that was long-winded...

[Jarno]

I found within this relation type the most difference between subtypes.

different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.

I got a Kindred friend, it's always great to be with him, we're like minded, (which is great since nobody on my work enjoy's Ni) but our slightly different idea's make things even more interesting.

[1981slater]

different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.

what do you mean? accepting and producing subtypes maybe? for instance ENTp - ENFp would be different subtypes and ENTp - ENFp would be both the same subtype?

[Jarno]

what do you mean? accepting and producing subtypes maybe? for instance ENTp - ENFp would be different subtypes and ENTp - ENFp would be both the same subtype?

yep.

[marooned]

there are these:

the16types.info Socionics Forums - Search Results

[JuJu]

I found within this relation type the most difference between subtypes.

different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.

i have found this true, now that i am thinking about it... i seem to get along with producing subtype esfjs better than accepting subtype--but then again, i'm not drawing from a huge pool... only a couple esfjs of each subtype.

Anyone ever dated a kindred?

[Warlord]

I tried dating an ILI-Ni, but it didn't work out. His Fe-PoLR was too much for me, any Fe-related attempt by me to get him to lighten up was met with an unnatural reaction. I think romantic kindred relations involving an F-PoLR would be worse, given the emotional context.

Heh, what's unnatural reaction?

But that's my experience with NiFe's, I get impression that my reactions (or more like the lack of reaction) to their Fe is frequent disappoitment.

[shakealittle]

I have a kindred friend, never been in a romantic relationship and don't plan to. I find what they have to say interesting and conversation is pleasant enough. I really appreciate them in group settings because I find that you look out for one another. It's fun to help them out with their HA and I appreciate the consideration regarding Fe but it gets tiring trying to produce it. Wouldn't consider dating an infantile though....doesn't appeal at all.

[Tom]

My friend Nate (Te LIE) and I get along very well; it really fits the description well in that we can communicate very easily, get along very well, but have no real fullfillment for each other.

[DirectorAbbie]

I think extroverted kindred couples have it better because it's easier to drive someone nute with an extroverted polr than with an introverted polr.

[redbaron]

I'd like to hear Mimosa's take on this since I think she was in love with an ILI for awhile years ago.

I had a crush on one once (and he with me) but it was bad timing. I dunno how it might have worked out. But to this day we're still friends and if we lived closer we'd probably be even better friends although the attraction thing might force us to keep our distance.

[Creepy-male]

I think extroverted kindred couples have it better because it's easier to drive someone nute with an extroverted polr than with an introverted polr.

Well, I think in Kindreds, the PoLR/creative never really get exchanged.

Most of my conversations with SLIs follow the pattern of me spamming Fe and them not getting a word in edgeways mutual exchange of pure Si. I can't deal with the Te and tune it out, they have a relatively limited engagement in my Fe. Nobody gets hurt.

Kindreds make great friends, but I don't think it would go so well being in constant close proximity.

[redbaron]

so here's a related question: which is better: kindred or lookalike?

So for me, that would be IEI-ILI (kindred) or IEI-SEI (lookalike).

I'm guessing lookalike but that's only because I have more experience with lookalike relationships (my dad's my lookalike also plus he's Fe-sub). Anyone else have an opinion?

[DirectorAbbie]

Personally, I think I'd prefer kindred. Probably because I'm a Te subtype.

[Creepy-male]

so here's a related question: which is better: kindred or lookalike?

Hmm. "It depends".

From the IEIs I've actually talked to, I've noticed that we occasionally settle on this pattern of never *quite* synching up the direction of conversation. Like, imagine a red beam and a blue beam, twisting every which way around eachother. Like, two people on the same sofa, watching the same TV movie, but talking about how they see it completely differently as they're watching it.

Compared to SLIs, where we wind up just talking about random stuff and sort of maintaining a mutually comfortable level of distance. Think of a single purple beam moving every which way instead. Also, two people on sofas across the room.

I do like IEIs, though. There's enough resonance around Fe/Ti that their contact with things totally out of reach to me is really fascinating.

My choice: look-a-like.

[redbaron]

I like my lookalike (SEI) because the shared Fe creative is very sweet and fun and their Si holds the conversation down to earth, which I really like. I have other friends that I can revel in Ni with, so the Si is a welcome change of perspective. But I have to pretty much keep the conversation light. If I go dark or deep, they either look away and pretend not to hear me or get this look of terror on their face. LOL! I think if I were married to one, it would be pretty similar to my current marriage to FeSi where we have fun together but it never gets too philosophical and although there's probably more understanding with SiFe than FeSi, it would never be complete. I think it might be GOOD with a lookalike, but it's probably not the BEST. :wink:

The thing about male SEIs is that they are just so damn cute. I mean, when they like someone they cannot hide it. They try and it just finds a way out, even in very subtle ways. It makes me want to poke and tickle and hug them (none of which I do of course). The shy emotional thing is just... adorable.

[Creepy-male]

^^That's Fe resonance ^^

Though, I like to tap the Ni as a way of dealing with problems by intellectualizing them when I'm chucking an IP-Fe emo

Though, I don't know, would it annoy you having to deal with someone relentlessly positive and totally nonjudgemental when you, the IEI, is chucking an emo?

[redbaron]

^^That's Fe resonance ^^

Though, I like to tap the Ni as a way of dealing with problems by intellectualizing them when I'm chucking an IP-Fe emo

Though, I don't know, would it annoy you having to deal with someone relentlessly positive and totally nonjudgemental when you, the IEI, is chucking an emo?

No, I don't think so. But what does annoy me is the lack of Se. I mean, it's not what's THERE that I find annoying about the SEI, it's what's lacking. In theory, SEIs are good with Se but since it's not valued, it's rarely shown in the way I need it to be shown. Then again, I've been without it for so long, I'm use to that.