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Thread: Fe-Ti vs. Fi-Te and filtering sources of information

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    Default Fe-Ti vs. Fi-Te and filtering sources of information

    Disclaimer: these are indeed my views, that is, it's not something that I can say anyone else in socionics has said in quite that fashion. Although my present view is that it's correct, it's possible that others could make a good case that it's not.

    However, personally I wouldn't consider "I am of type bla-bla, and I don't identify with it" a good case.

    Where I'm coming from:

    It is self-evident that (1) any healthy person, extrovert or introvert, needs the input of external information and (2) no healthy person accepts every external information uncritically. Everyone has what I will call "internal filters" that help them pick up, from external information, what is "useful" or "useless", what "rings true" and what "sounds like nonsense". We all have observed cases - here or IRL - of equally clever individuals saying things to each other like "you're so naive to believe that" or "isn't it obvious?" etc. This happens because people have different "filters". When the "filters" are, say, "calibrated differently", then of course you have different views on what is obvious or not, or on what you should believe or not.


    On the Fe-Ti and Fi-Te divide

    So, everyone is "subjective" at one level regarding external information. However, in different ways.

    One imperfect way of putting it is this:

    Fi-Te: "liking or disliking" (ie being "subective" with regards to) a kind of source of input, "source" also being "individuals"
    Fe-Ti: "liking or dislikng" a kind of input

    Te: takes any input "as it is given" as long as it is from a reliable source (or person)
    Fi: tells you which sources are reliable (or which people to trust)

    Fi is here the filter.

    Fe: takes the input not "as it is given" but "reading between the lines"
    Ti: organizes such input logically, rejecting the bits that do not fit logically.

    Ti is here the filter.

    In both cases, Fe and Te get the external, dynamic, input - they are the "antennae" - and Fi and Ti select what is "correct" according to "static" criteria of how things, or people, connect - they are the "filters".

    Consequences:

    Fi-Te:
    Fi-Te quadra types - in a "pure", "unrealistic" situation - would prefer to communicate in ways that avoid any selection or interpretation of information - in a "robotic" way even. Which is why, by the way, at least the rational Gamma/Delta dual couples become increasingly "unemotional" with time, at least to outsiders -- they find comfort precisely in the reassurance that there is no need to select information with that particular person, no need to "read between the lines".

    So, Fi-Te's way of getting "correct" information is to choose the specific sources of information (not necessarily human beings, but it's more illustrative if we think of it that way) that they can trust, and then in principle take all the information from those sources at face value.

    The downfall of doing this: if you choose badly those specific sources of information (or individuals), because then you're vulnerable to all sorts of misinformation.

    That's what makes Fi-Te types so sensitive to being lied to, or to any other breach of trust, or even to receiving "softened" information even with good intentions.

    Fe-Ti
    Fe-Ti quadra types are far more "open" to the specific sources of information, that is, they are not selecting information based on their sources -- they get it from everyone; however, rather than "filter" it through Fi by selecting the sources carefully, they "filter" it through Fe (which already reads between the lines) and Ti (which sees what really makes sense and what is just, uh, padding or make-up etc).

    The downfall of doing this: your "filter" may lead you to be "biased" towards information that already fits certain already accepted notions; or be open to information that is factually unsustainable, but makes sense according to Fe and Ti.

    That's what makes Fe-Ti types so sensitive to "accusations" that the ideas they most deeply believe in are wrong.

    In both cases, what they are reacting against is anything exposing the vulnerability of their filters.

    Hence the mutual accusations between Fe-Ti and Fi-Te of "narrow-mindedness".

    To Fe-Ti, it looks like Fi-Te will only listen to specific sources or individuals, so "biased" towards them, or "narrow-minded" or "naive".

    To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".

    Unnecessary disclaimer: as in anything in socionics, these are trends, not absolutes; obviously Fe-Ti quadra types will also develop preferences for one source over others, if it turns out to be consistently reliable; and the other way around for Fi-Te. But I think that when there are moments of mutual incomprehension and accusations, that's how it tends to happen.
    Last edited by Expat; 03-09-2008 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Emphasizing again the "people" bit in Fi
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    This makes me think I am Fe/Ti more now.

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    eh, it made me think i'm Fi/Te, actually probably solidified that position.
    Last edited by implied; 03-09-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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    Expat's interpretation makes quite a lot of sense, especially if we look at the behaviour of some clear Fe-Ti types, like for example Sergei Ganin. I have seen these tendencies in other real life INTjs and also in ENTps. I haven't really thought about how much of it I have seen in other Fe-Ti types, but I would not be surprised if I found it there too.

    And if the interpretation is correct, then I am without doubt a Fi-Te type as I have claimed for years now. According to every criteria or test that Expat has ever produced, I am unquestionably an Fi-Te Gamma type, and therefore an ILI. Can we settle on that and move on now to more interesting subjects?

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    This makes a lot of sense IMO. It explains why when I was younger I seemed to be so gullible, since I tend to trust people as being knowledgeable unless they prove to me otherwise and so, since I trusted them, I took what they said to be true without really questioning it. I suppose this still happens to an extent actually. I end up getting confused if two people that I trust to be knowledgeable on a subject end up giving me different information, because then I don't know who's correct and who isn't (provided that I'm not knowledgeable on said subject, that is).
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    Interesting.

    My elder brother used to play adolescent pranks on me, using the reverence I had for him at the time to deceive me into doing stupid things for his amusement (and I don't begrudge him of this in hindsight). After a short while of this I decided I wouldn't trust him any longer, and any future attempt of his -- malicious or benign -- fell on totally deaf ears. This might sound typically like an instance of response training, but I think this differs because I literally would not listen to him *at all* for days at a time.

    I think now that this infuriated him because he was expecting me to have his very same Ti filter, and approach his schemes with the idea of "reading between the lines", assuming I would listen if he made himself sound plausible enough, and not simply write him off after deciding he was a "bad source".

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    If Fe-Ti people do not equally see the point, then I will have failed, although a couple had told me over PM that they did agree with it.

    I'd like to add that types with Ti in super-id will probably also say that they relate to "needing information from others", but I disagree, what they need from others is help with their filter, as in, "this is what I'm thinking, is that correct?" or "I know everything else, I just need input on this precise bit". What they don't want to hear is suggestions that their filter has got it all wrong so far.

    But, of course, everyone will (say) more or less trust a random stranger on the street when asking for directions, although they will use their filters, in some way, when deciding whom exactly to ask for directions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Expat's interpretation makes quite a lot of sense, especially if we look at the behaviour of some clear Fe-Ti types, like for example Sergei Ganin. I have seen these tendencies in other real life INTjs and also in ENTps. I haven't really thought about how much of it I have seen in other Fe-Ti types, but I would not be surprised if I found it there too.

    And if the interpretation is correct, then I am without doubt a Fi-Te type as I have claimed for years now. According to every criteria or test that Expat has ever produced, I am unquestionably an Fi-Te Gamma type, and therefore an ILI. Can we settle on that and move on now to more interesting subjects?
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    I agree on everything else, but there seems to be something fishy about this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    (a) To Fe-Ti, it looks like Fi-Te will only listen to specific sources or individuals, so "biased" towards them, or "narrow-minded" or "naive".

    (b) To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".
    To me it would usually appear to be people who are weak at Te or are Fe-Ti, who are using Fi-Te at the moment, that are "guilty" of (a). While Te-ego-block Te-Fi, has the downfall of wanting excessive proof, because of lack of trust to external sources (unfulfilled Fi).
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    To tell you the truth, I don't identify more strongly with the Te/Fi "filter" than the Fe/Ti "filter" (or vice versa). Good information and ideas can come from any source, as can bad information and ideas. It's the individual's job to figure out what makes the most sense based on all of the information available. A source's source matters more than the source itself (I want to know where the information originated, such as what studies were done, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    There's also an aspect of it which involves finding a lot of information on a subject and sorting through it relatively quickly to determine which information is most useful for the purpose of effectively accomplishing whatever it is a person is trying to accomplish. If nothing else I can usually make recommendations regarding which information a person should obtain and the best places to start looking for that information.
    When I do this, I scan for information from many sources, some of them reliable, some unreliable, and piece together the bits that make the most sense and filter out the bits that don't make sense. Sometimes the information that doesn't make sense comes from the most reputable sources. Granted, I do look for which sources are most likely to have gotten their information from valuable sources and which are most likely to have gotten inaccurate information, and I certainly look at who's making money off of the information (helps to distinguish bullshit from what's accurate).

    When I report the information to someone I'll say something like "I once read that *insert information here*, but I'm not sure how reliable the source was" or "according to a researcher who's at the top of his specialty field, *insert information here*" or something along those lines.

    I guess I use a combination of these "filters". I think I use Ni as much as I do Ti to determine which bits of information "fit" (and which don't) though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    When I do this, I scan for information from many sources, some of them reliable, some unreliable, and piece together the bits that make the most sense and filter out the bits that don't make sense. Sometimes the information that doesn't make sense comes from the most reputable sources. Granted, I do look for which sources are most likely to have gotten their information from valuable sources and which are most likely to have gotten inaccurate information, and I certainly look at who's making money off of the information (helps to distinguish bullshit from what's accurate).
    This would make sense based on what I just said above.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You're not the only person who matters, Phaedrus.
    That's exactly my point. So it's time for you and others to move on to more interesting problems -- just like I said.

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    The Fe-Ti description here sounds very foreign to me. Are there specific examples or analogies about how Fe "reads between the lines"?

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    @ Joy and Warlord: my original concept was that the "sources" were mostly "other individuals"; perhaps it makes the most sense if we stay with that, and see Fi mainly as a filter for which people to trust, rather than which books (or whatever) to use as source, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    The Fe-Ti description here sounds very foreign to me. Are there specific examples or analogies about how Fe "reads between the lines"?
    Tone of voice and inflection. Reading body language. When what someone says does not seem to match with other factors that may be in play. Or even in poetry; there are the words on the page which are seen and read in a flow (Te) and then there is the emotion or feeling that exists in that word(s) of the poem in that moment of reading (Fe). Then you could say that the poem is structured syntactically (Ti) in a way to obtain that reaction to which the reader or author may or may not have an attachment to (Fi).

    The Ti-Fe description was well done. Expat, I did not detect any bias in this write-up, so good job. Ti also works well with Fe since it holds sources, events, and ideas on mostly neutral terms (though still in a subjective logical system) not so much on a basis of what is or works (external dynamics), but whether or not it makes sense as presented based upon the objects' external statics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    @ Joy and Warlord: my original concept was that the "sources" were mostly "other individuals"; perhaps it makes the most sense if we stay with that, and see Fi mainly as a filter for which people to trust, rather than which books (or whatever) to use as source, etc.
    Okay, then it works well for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Tone of voice and inflection. Reading body language. When what someone says does not seem to match with other factors that may be in play. Or even in poetry; there are the words on the page which are seen and read in a flow (Te) and then there is the emotion or feeling that exists in that word(s) of the poem in that moment of reading (Fe). Then you could say that the poem is structured syntactically (Ti) in a way to obtain that reaction to which the reader or author may or may not have an attachment to (Fi).
    That's a very good example, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The Ti-Fe description was well done. Expat, I did not detect any bias in this write-up, so good job. Ti also works well with Fe since it holds sources, events, and ideas on mostly neutral terms (though still in a subjective logical system) not so much on a basis of what is or works (external dynamics), but whether or not it makes sense as presented based upon the objects' external statics.
    Thanks!
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    (in response to initial post)

    This is very good imo. Thank you for sharing.

    I very much relate to the Fe-Ti one.

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    A great description, Expat. Thank you. This confirms I am from a Te-Fi quadra.
    Last edited by Park; 03-10-2008 at 03:25 AM.
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    I 'll take my behavior on this forum as an example to show that what Expat says holds the ground. There's people for instance, whose posts I never even bother to read, and there's people (like Expat) whose posts I always enjoy reading and will never regret spending time with and trust their information almost unconditionally. Many times I would be skimming through threads quickly and only stop to read Expat's and a few other people's posts, completely ignoring the rest. So yeah, I am very selective when it comes to sources of information.


    edit: (just to add something.) I really hate it when people instead of listening to the content of what I am saying they pay more attention to the tone of my voice, my articulations, the ways I hold my hands, the way I look at them and all that secondary (for me) unimportant info.
    Last edited by Park; 03-10-2008 at 03:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    edit: (just to add something.) I really hate it when people instead of listening to the content of what I am saying they pay more attention to the tone of my voice, my articulations, the ways I hold my hands, the way I look at them and all that secondary (for me) unimportant info.
    1) Fe is more involved than that, 2) Fe is not an anti-content listening function, and 3) while you may think of it secondary importance, sometimes what is more important is not what is said, but what remains unsaid or lurks behind what is being said. This 3rd element is particularly important for counseling where listening beyond the words is required.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    1) Fe is more involved than that, 2) Fe is not an anti-content listening function, and 3) while you may think of it secondary importance, sometimes what is more important is not what is said, but what remains unsaid or lurks behind what is being said. This 3rd element is particularly important for counseling where listening beyond the words is required.
    Yeah, I understand that. But listening beyond the words without listening to the words is definitely not cool and it pisses the shit out of me.
    Last edited by Park; 03-10-2008 at 03:59 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. But listening beyond the words without listening to the words is definitely not cool and it pisses the shit out of me.
    I agree with you, and I also agree that I never regret reading Expat's very informative posts.

    But I think you and I have a losing battle here, Winterpark. I think most people will look at our outward actions and make judgements on us. It blows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. But listening beyond the words without listening to the words is definitely not cool and it pisses the shit out of me.
    I do not think that would please anybody, so I would not expect it to be particular to a Fe/Te divide.
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    I am having serious trouble explaining my point to a person who watches and mainly responds to my gestures or goes into "aha, so you mean that and that or that..." mode. I say what I mean. Most of the time there's no reason to search for hidden meanings in my verbal output (or try to find them in my physical appearance and outward emotional expression) in order to understand me. And I think this is related to Te/Fe.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I am having serious trouble explaining my point to a person who watches and mainly responds to my gestures or goes into "aha, so you mean that and that or that..." mode. I say what I mean. Most of the time there's no reason to search for hidden meanings in my verbal output (or try to find them in my physical appearance and outward emotional expression) in order to understand me. And I think this is related to Te/Fe.
    One of the things I have learned in life is that people rarely if ever say what they truly mean. And I do think that you are understating how importance body language (roughly 80-90 percent of the human language) is when saying what you mean. So while you may say what you mean, saying what you mean involves far more than just the content of your words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    So while you may say what you mean, saying what you mean involves far more than just the content of your words.
    I wouldn't agree. I 'd say "the extra" goes in varying degrees, starting from near zero, if not zero.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I wouldn't agree. I 'd say "the extra" goes in varying degrees, starting from near zero, if not zero.
    Then you would seem to have a lot to learn still of the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Then you would seem to have a lot to learn still of the world.
    No, it would seem that you will have to do a lot of accepting and adjusting to things that don't fit your viewpoint.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I wouldn't agree. I 'd say "the extra" goes in varying degrees, starting from near zero, if not zero.
    Yeah I agree. Body language/expressions/intonation etc. are just as misinformative as the content of the speech, if not more since people seem to trust it more. I would say that 90% of time, other than the content of my speech would be misinformative if/when someone tries to read it.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Yeah I agree. Body language/expressions/intonation etc. are just as misinformative as the content of the speech, if not more since people seem to trust it more. I would say that 90% of time, other than the content of my speech would be misinformative if/when someone tries to read it.
    The importance and the use of body language =! the success in interpreting it. But my point was more that our body language is a fairly large component of our language whether or not it is interpreted correctly. The content of your words is just as liable to be lost in translation in definitions, connotations, structure, emphasis, etc. Welcome to Reality 101.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The importance and the use of body language =! the success in interpreting it. But my point was more that our body language is a fairly large component of our language whether or not it is interpreted correctly. The content of your words is just as liable to be lost in translation in definitions, connotations, structure, emphasis, etc. Welcome to Reality 101.
    Body languages importance diminishes when it doesn't convey any meaningful message. Over-emphasizing it's importance means that you get lot of meaningless information, that you interpret as somehow relevant.

    According to Mehrabian rule 55% of communication comes from body language. But that's just amount. It's importance should largely depend on how meaningful the information exchange is through body language.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    One of the things I have learned in life is that people rarely if ever say what they truly mean.
    God, you sound like my mother. And you're both wrong. Like I constantly say to her I will say to you, stop projecting, just because you're like that doesn't make everybody like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Body languages importance diminishes when it doesn't convey any meaningful message.
    How then is this any different from content?

    Over-emphasizing it's importance means that you get lot of meaningless information, that you interpret as somehow relevant.
    And deemphasizing it's importance robs you of potentially useful information that is not strictly within the content of the words.

    According to Mehrabian rule 55% of communication comes from body language. But that's just amount. It's importance should largely depend on how meaningful the information exchange is through body language.
    But look at the other percentages: words account for 7%, tone of voice accounts for 38%, and body language accounts for 55% of our "liking for the person who puts forward the message." Tone of voice + body language = 93% of communication versus strictly 7% of words, that may or may not be meaningful or coherent.

    So it can be little denied that body language informs the content of what we say. How seriously can we take a man saying that he is mad when he says it daintily while frolicking through the fields with loose facial muscles and a big grin on his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    God, you sound like my mother. And you're both wrong. Like I constantly say to her I will say to you, stop projecting, just because you're like that doesn't make everybody like that.
    And how do you know this?
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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    This is starting to irk me. The way people says things, their gestures, their expressions (body language), their intonations, the way they organize and present their information, how their presentation of information relates to previous ways they have presented information, the trend of how they've been expressing themselves in general, things you know about them from memory, when they pause in their speech or not, when they look at you or not, how they attempt to affect the flow of conversation, etc. All of these things speak volumes about what they mean. This cannot be denied. The content of what they say *also* speaks volumes about what they mean.

    The problem is that you can't pay attention to all of this at once. Just because someone has more of a slant towards paying attention to the direct literal content of what someone else says over that other stuff *does not* mean it's more likely to give more accurate information on what that person means. For instance someone could be lying through their teeth and this could be very evident in the way they're expressing themselves, but you might miss it because you're paying attention to just the content of what they say. Or, someone could be saying exactly what they mean at face value, but because you've been paying attention to their "body language," etc. (and possibly misinterpreting it), you miss their meaning. You can screw it up either way.

    The other thing is what people mean precisely can sometimes be very difficult to express in words. Sometimes words can only approximate precise meaning, but never quite hit it (some might argue all the time).

    It's fine to object to Fe>Te... this is to be expected. But to say one way is superior to the other or somehow more accurate seems silly to me. And by the way, no one said it was superior. I was reading between the lines.

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    Exactly!
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    How then is this any different from content?
    Content is usually understandable, it's an exception when it's not. Try to send your message only by using only auxiliary body language. And you notice the difference how meaningful the convesation becomes. If that's not already self-evident now.

    And deemphasizing it's importance robs you of potentially useful information that is not strictly within the content of the words.
    Maybe, but it's far more likely that it cuts off more misinterpretations, than what's gained by over-concentration and interpretation of body language, and trying to interpret what every body posture, chin rubbing etc. supposedly means.

    So it can be little denied that body language informs the content of what we say. How seriously can we take a man saying that he is mad when he says it daintily while frolicking through the fields with loose facial muscles and a big grin on his face?
    Well I would certainly think he's mad in the classic sense

    The problem there is exactly what Winterpark said: trusting body language/expressions instead of content of speech.

    There are lot of people who are close to snapping point or suicidal etc., and nobody can tell it by looking at them.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Content is usually understandable, it's an exception when it's not.
    Content on its own is usually understandable, but it is not always meaningful.

    Try to send your message only by using only auxiliary body language. And you notice the difference how meaningful the convesation becomes. If that's not already self-evident now.
    Now try and send that same message without body language or tone of voice. How much meaning is transmitted in that?

    Maybe, but it's far more likely that it cuts off more misinterpretations, than what's gained by over-concentration and interpretation of body language, and trying to interpret what every body posture, chin rubbing etc. supposedly means.
    But what you seem to be missing is that most of the interpretation of body language is done subconsciously.

    Well I would certainly think he's mad in the classic sense
    Why?

    The problem there is exactly what Winterpark said: trusting body language/expressions instead of content of speech.

    There are lot of people who are close to snapping point or suicidal etc., and nobody can tell it by looking at them.
    I think you have it reversed. In my example, what he says is not what he means as he reveals in his actions. He is clearly not mad, but the mere content of his words would suggest otherwise.

    Why do you continue to deemphasize the importance of body language and tone of voice? I do not think that it is superior to the content - only a fool would say that - but so would the fool also ignore the prominence of body language and tone of voice whether it be interpreted consciously or not. Body language, connotation, and tone of voice infuse our words with meaning beyond mere definitions and face-value content. It is an essential part of communication and just as much as the words that are transmitted. The what is often made meaningful by the how. Have you not read what Loki wrote, or do you continue to persist in this argument for the sake of arguing? I have the feeling that we would most agree, but you seem to always be trying to get a leg-up where there is no need to do so.
    Last edited by Logos; 03-10-2008 at 06:43 AM.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You can screw it up either way.
    Trust no one
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Content on its own is usually understandable, but it is not always meaningful.
    Well yeah.

    Now try and send that same message without body language or tone of voice. How much meaning is transmitted in that?
    I think I did, this is text only.

    But what you seem to be missing is that most of the interpretation of body language is done subconsciously.
    Not really. You can't make your subconscious to read more or less, or display more body language.

    Well I would certainly think he's mad in the classic sense
    Why?
    That's not rational behaviour, he should be doing something profitable instead./joke

    I think you have it reversed. In my example, what he says is not what he means as he reveals in his actions. He is clearly not mad, but the mere content of his words would suggest otherwise.
    He could be either way.

    Why do you continue to deemphasize the importance of body language and tone of voice?
    I'm down-emphasizing your over-emphasis. And trying to find out makes you think it's so important that it would require your initial reaction to Winterpark.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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