Male INFj and female ESTj (EII-LSE)

[FiNeAussie]

I'm sure this has been posted before, probably a myriad number of times, but I wonder if it's ever been requested by an INFj male?

So here's the situation. I'm already one of the rarest types on the planet, and I'm male, making me probably about as common as hens teeth or a flying pig.

My question to the veterans of this board is, how does an INFj male go about finding and then attracting an ESTj female? Because hot damn, I want me one, and I'm not aggressive at all, quite shy really, so I need to draw their attention and then let them do all the work!

(If this has been posted before, please don't hesitate to tell me so I can avoid cluttering the forums up! I dislike starting new threads enough as it is!)

[mikemex]

EII males are not rare. LSE girls are not rare either. The problem I think is that logical women and ethical men tend to feel out of sync with the gender stereotype and consciously or not try to act out to conform.

If you want to find LSE girls, just take a look at bureaucratic offices. I've came across several when visiting government buildings.

[istpunk]

gay sex

[jewels]

I know one who is an dental hygenist, another an education administrator. I think most business-y jobs would be a good place to look. ESTJs also seem way into travel/outdoorsy activities, softball, BBQs and drinking beer (based on the ones I know).

A lot of them have trouble finding really good guys (such as nice INFJs) because INFJs probably aren't at the softball BBQ beer fest. There must be some way to bring the INFJs together with the ESTJs...

I do know both INFJs and ESTJs who take ballroom dance classes...perhaps that's one place to find eachother?

[meatburger]

I wouldn't spend too much time seeking your dual. Most relationships (even good ones) are formed because two individuals are together because "this is the best it may get" - Nothing wrong with that. At the very most, try to hook up with another Sensor, you want variety in life.

Eeek. There is some part of that post that rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps when im a lot older i will have this attitude, but i suppose i just have enough self respect to not settle for a shitty relationship. I understand that things could always be better. You could even be with your dual and think hmm im sure theres a better dual out there. At some point you have to accept what you've got.

I see this as the reason why 50% of marriages end in divorce. People get with someone and think lets just go with it. My parents are look alikes and they have been stabily married for ages and ages. At least they managed to stay married and its very noble of them. But now they are arguing and bickering about trivial shit that at their age they should be over. I cant help thinking that if they hadn't just been all "Lets get married forever" they might have found a better match.

[Rubicon]

I wouldn't spend too much time seeking your dual. Most relationships (even good ones) are formed because two individuals are together because "this is the best it may get" - Nothing wrong with that. At the very most, try to hook up with another Sensor, you want variety in life.

That's a bit pessimistic isn't it? "At the very most"? Don't you mean "at the very least"??

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Try to hang out with any mirror people you know. Most people have at least one activator as a friend i've found, and your mirrors activator is your dual...perfect!

[meatburger]

Try to hang out with any mirror people you know. Most people have at least one activator as a friend i've found, and your mirrors activator is your dual...perfect!

Yeah thats very good advice. I knw an ENFp girl and ive been to her house for parties and met INFj's and ISTp's. Always have boyfriends though.

Unfortunately the only INFj girl im in contact with im pretty sure isn't friends with any ISTp's. In fact her friendship group baffles me. Shes friends with said ENFp which is fine but apart from that its INFp, ESFp and some other odd type. She doesn't have many friends either. As her boyfriends enough

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yeah thats very good advice. I knw an ENFp girl and ive been to her house for parties and met INFj's and ISTp's. Always have boyfriends though.

Unfortunately the only INFj girl im in contact with im pretty sure isn't friends with any ISTp's. In fact her friendship group baffles me. Shes friends with said ENFp which is fine but apart from that its INFp, ESFp and some other odd type. She doesn't have many friends either. As her boyfriends enough

I left my old job recently, there's an ESTj girl there who I became good friends with, she's got a partner, she's quite social and we're keeping in touch, some of her friends sound ENFp, defo delta quadra based I would say..i'll see if any of the girls are ISTp and i'll reserve some of them for ya!!

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Infact, one of my friends is ISTp, she's very petite, 5 ft 2, blonde, single, 21..how's this sound?

[Expat]

Eeek. There is some part of that post that rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps when im a lot older i will have this attitude, but i suppose i just have enough self respect to not settle for a shitty relationship.

You don't necessarily lose your self-respect as you get older, you know.

[meatburger]

Infact, one of my friends is ISTp, she's very petite, 5 ft 2, blonde, single, 21..how's this sound?

Very nice. how much?

]You don't necessarily lose your self-respect as you get older, you know.

Expat im sorry but your wrong..

nah let me rephrase this sentance (actually what i was thinking in my head).

Perhaps if im a lot older and still desperately single i will have this attitude. Even then i wont. I think im having a bad communication day. A firery red-haired drum playing hippie may be ready to hunt me down after a post i made at uni about our city not having any culture. She approached FiNeAussie thinking it was me.. She will probablly kidnap me and fire twirl me into submission.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Very nice. how much?

Well, she's kind of plain to a point, not like stunning but kind of nice, attractive, you know? She's always very well presented, nicely dressed and funky hair do. She's a light weight with a penchant for cider. Just buy her a drink and ENFp charm her!
[/QUOTE]
Expat im sorry but your wrong..

nah let me rephrase this sentance (actually what i was thinking in my head).

Perhaps if im a lot older and still desperately single i will have this attitude. Even then i wont. I think im having a bad communication day. A firery red-haired drum playing hippie may be ready to hunt me down after a post i made at uni about our city not having any culture. She approached FiNeAussie thinking it was me.. She will probablly kidnap me and fire twirl me into submission.[/QUOTE]
I think I know what you mean. If you've had a few relationships and they sucked because you settled for second best..to a point previously. Then your gonna know what you want less of and want more of, so you'll be more cert on settling for a good 'un.

I'll set you up with Joanne.

[meatburger]

Well, she's kind of plain to a point, not like stunning but kind of nice, attractive, you know? She's always very well presented, nicely dressed and funky hair do. She's a light weight with a penchant for cider. Just buy her a drink and ENFp charm her!

I'll set you up with Joanne.

No worries, she sounds wonderful. I like Cider too! Does she come from a powerful clan and have a nice tartan?

I see your ISTp girl and raise you an ENFp one. I know a couple of single ENFp girls at the moment. One is a blonde who works as a waitress and one is a redhead. Shes quite nice, long legs, happy demeanour, good at her uni and she writes her name all funky like.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

No worries, she sounds wonderful. I like Cider too! Does she come from a powerful clan and have a nice tartan?

HELL yes my friend!

I see your ISTp girl and raise you an ENFp one. I know a couple of single ENFp girls at the moment. One is a blonde who works as a waitress and one is a redhead. Shes quite nice, long legs, happy demeanour, good at her uni and she writes her name all funky like.

Funky stuff. I see a quadruple forming. Thats when us I's become all extroverted like, and we're all fit like. Which is all funky. Lets paint the town a funky colour, like.

But how can an ENFp girl be single? Some of them are? The world is full of Goodies!!!!

[Minde]

But how can an ENFp girl be single? Some of them are? The world is full of Goodies!!!!

My sister, ENFp, is single right now. So, yes, it is possible.

[meatburger]

My sister, ENFp, is single right now. So, yes, it is possible.

Yeah its quite common i think. I know two dualed up ENFp's and two singles. One of the dual pair dropped in the other night to our friends house. We were going out for dinner but they were off to the Jetty to catch squid and crabs. Shes like "were off to catch crabs", and the ENTj said "make sure you get cream for that"

I think ENFp's are often single, were like pfft. That reminds me theres a new scottish girl in my class. We seemed curious about each other, i think shes another ENFp. lol

[atavist]

Hello Delta, I'm a male EII/INFj. (Please, no "aww's.") I really ought to contribute some to the board before I solicit relationship advice, but since we love discussing duality here and cutting to the chase befits the quadra, I'd might as well dive in. Forgive me if it's too much too soon.

Over the last four months, I've been developing a relationship in college with my dual, ESTj (female), and it's the first of this sort that I've experienced. She's hyper-rational, efficient with her time and effort, frugal, practical, ambitious, principled. All those good LSE traits. And as for almost all the less ideal tendencies, such as her flashes of temper at the slightest perceived disrespect and her undeniable workaholism -- well, I find them adorable.

But the first stumbling block has been getting on the same page of emotional communication with her, and it's been very difficult for me. She seems uncomfortable with expressing her feelings, and will only do so infrequently and meekly and after a long time together physically. Plus, she seems to follow the gender norm of expecting me to initiate almost all our contacts, and this is quite hard for me to do. Since (1) I admire and respect her so much, (2) I don't exactly have the strongest self-esteem, and (3) the relationship is young and still rather vague definitionally, I've often found myself wracked with feelings of uncertainty about whether she does, might, or could possibly love me. And since I'm afraid that my value will decrease in her eyes if I reveal how intensely anxious I am about her approval, appreciation, and affection, I have been letting this problem get worse and have actually begun to hurt (as irrational as this may be).

In case this sounds like a story of unrequited love, let me be clear that I do believe she has strong feelings for me. It's just that the infrequency and utter mildness of her emotional expressions have been driving me up and down a rollercoaster of self-doubt and uncertainty that I do not necessarily endorse on a conscious, rational level.

She's returning from our school's winter break this weekend. The long-distance communication was very unsatisfying for me and I've become neurotic as the time has passed being apart. It seems to me that it's time we discuss my need for reminders of affection, but I don't want to scare her off. I want to level with her.

For lack of a better conclusion -- help?

[Jarno]

For lack of a better conclusion -- help?

it seems you haven't start dating yet?

go out to the movies or something. oh and some alcohol always loosens both parties up :-)

emphasize the things you have in common (since that is what the layman thinks is important for a relationship)

And at some point try to touch her in some way. Talking means you are nothing more than an information spiller to her, touching her makes you a possible partner. It's a common trick...

You don't need to kiss on the first date, ask her for the second date at your home.

oke so far my tips :-d

[tiny_dancer]

I'd say relax. That's (way) easier said than done, but if you put too much pressure on her she's going to feel that subconsciously and let go of the relationship. I know you're feeling anxious, but if you let things develop naturally, it'll go easier.

...says the woman who's permanently single. lolz

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Do you socialise outside of college? Need to take it to that level if you haven't.

Ask her what she's up to that evening as part of the conversation, if she's not up to anything ask him to come along to something or other. Maybe this way it is still sort of informal and you can take it from there.

I remember an extraverted girl told me that her and her friend were going out for a drink after work, and asked me to come along. Anyway i'm pretty poor at reading stuff like this, I took it at face value and went along. As the night progressed she would do stuff like put her head on my shoulder and touch my hand and stuff and we eventually kissed at the end of the night. It wasn't till this happened that I realised I liked her, lol. So I guess her and her friend set me up. Maybe you could do something similar?

If you don't make a move then, then you could tell her afterwards you had a really good time and say you'd really like to do go out with her at the weekend, but I do think the physical thing is necessary, whether it's like I mentioned or holding his hand or something at some point during it.

My take fwiw.

[DirectorAbbie]

Have you told her you're shy of her? Ask her to take some of the initiative. I'm sure she will.

[atavist]

I have dated before. This is my fourth relationship, but it's the first time I've been involved with a girl whose preference for Te is so strong.

We're well beyond early stages of physical intimacy. Getting those basic things going is not the issue. It's more a matter of whether her communication style, which is very much characteristic of LSE, can meet my emotional needs as explained in my first post.

I know I do need to relax, and I do relax when we're together. Maybe it's just me, and I need cognitive therapy rather than advice from socionics. Figured it was worth a try, though.

[atavist]

Have you told her you're shy of her? Ask her to take some of the initiative. I'm sure she will.

Yes. We've discussed it before, as I've misinterpreted her waiting for me as an indicator of her losing interest. She still insists on my sharing the initiative, which pans out in practice as my having to take nearly all of it.

[DirectorAbbie]

Yes. We've discussed it before, as I've misinterpreted her waiting for me as an indicator of her losing interest. She still insists on my sharing the initiative, which pans out in practice as my having to take nearly all of it.

I personally don't see why anyone would be shy with someome they know cares about them. Try setting up a predetermined routine schedule. An LSE would like that. Then you wouldn't have to initiate it; it'd automatically flow into place.

[Marie84]

LSE's seem to take a bit longer to really officialize a relationship, they need to first recognize their own feelings as well as make sure that you're on the same wave length.
I don't think there's anything you can really say or do to further the process, it probably just takes a constant showing of consistency, on your part, and if you're an EII (or any Ij) that should happen automatically. As the trust builds and the relationship is constantly being nurtured (which Fi's do naturally) she'll likely be more confident about her bond with you, and thus be more open to sharing her own sentiments.

[Marie84]

Try setting up a predetermined routine schedule.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I have dated before. This is my fourth relationship, but it's the first time I've been involved with a girl whose preference for Te is so strong.

We're well beyond early stages of physical intimacy. Getting those basic things going is not the issue. It's more a matter of whether her communication style, which is very much characteristic of LSE, can meet my emotional needs as explained in my first post.

I know I do need to relax, and I do relax when we're together. Maybe it's just me, and I need cognitive therapy rather than advice from socionics. Figured it was worth a try, though.

I'm not sure then, I look to F types to be the guide of such things in a relationship, it's kinda like me complaining about an IEE not being logical enough.

Maybe try and talk to her, as she probably won't be aware unless you say, hmmm, dunno, hope it works out and all.

If you guys can't communicate without the difficulty you elude to closer you get maybe you guys aren't INFj-ESTj, or one likes one more than the other? Relationship developments and such aren't my forte, so I don't know.

[Creepy-]

LSE's seem to take a bit longer to really officialize a relationship, they need to first recognize their own feelings as well as make sure that you're on the same wave length.
I don't think there's anything you can really say or do to further the process, it probably just takes a constant showing of consistency, on your part, and if you're an EII (or any Ij) that should happen automatically. As the trust builds and the relationship is constantly being nurtured (which Fi's do naturally) she'll likely be more confident about her bond with you, and thus be more open to sharing her own sentiments.

This is exactly what I have observed in more than one LSE.

As an example, I know an LSE woman who is now engaged to be married... she and her fiance [don't know his type] are very happy, but it took them a while to get to this point [not that they haven't usually gotten along well, but that she had doubts that kept her from committing herself all the way for a while] This may have to do w her being an E6, but she tested him a bit over the course of their relationship... not in a malicious or even overt way, but definitely testing.

In the beginning she refrained from showing just how much she liked him, as if to make sure he was steady w his feelings and devotion first. And throughout their early relationship she has always been very... watchful, I guess, as if on the lookout for non-trustworthiness on his part. But as he "proved" himself - just by being consistently there and keeping the bond going strong, which I agree w Marie is only natural for a healthy Fi type in love - she reciprocated all the way. She is probably one of the most loyal people I know, and once she was sure that her loyalty wouldn't be abused, she allowed herself to be completely devoted. This took a while, though... it took a lot of patience on the guy's part, I would imagine.

[atavist]

Marie and SoapOfSapphire, thank you. This is an important insight about LSEs' approach to relationships, and it seems to be exactly what she is doing. At some level, I already knew this, but second-guessing myself while we've been apart for the past month has been throwing me off my more evidentially grounded intuitions about the situation.

She has certainly been vigilant for proof of my consistency and trustworthiness, and given what has been verbally and nonverbally expressed in a couple of the more serious and direct conversations we've had, this seems to be the major prerequisite for her to be willing to demonstrate emotions that might position her to seem and/or feel vulnerable. Otherwise, she keeps a rather tough front. Perhaps guarding against the possibility that my feelings are no more than flash in the pan infatuation with no staying power.

I'll chill out and persist.

[tiny_dancer]

That sounds exactly like an EII-LSE couple I know. As the last test, she started treating him like crap. He asked her what the deal was and said if she's no longer interested, they shouldn't be dating, and they broke up for a couple of months... which made her realize she really did like him, and they got married.

And now she's fine and doesn't do that stuff. (thank God. heh)

It doesn't always work the way they want it to, though. My ex did that to me, and while we got back together, I never fully trusted him after that point because his actions were arbitrary, malicious, and unwarranted. I figured he was just getting off on being a jerk. It was the beginning of the end for us.

I noticed the guy I was most recently semi-involved with did the prodding thing too. I never realize it until I've already said something off-the-cuff that probably isn't what they want to hear. Of course, as I'm busy saying something stupid, I realize they have a suspicious look on their face. I love how they think they're unreadable. heh

SLIs, I find your surreptitiousness adorable. You are not as sneaky as you think you are.

[FDG]

That sounds exactly like an EII-LSE couple I know. As the last test, she started treating him like crap. He asked her what the deal was and said if she's no longer interested, they shouldn't be dating, and they broke up for a couple of months... which made her realize she really did like him, and they got married.

Jesus...what a genius. Lol.

[tiny_dancer]

*sigh* Weak ethics and a penchant for sadism, whaddya do?

[UDP]

Unfortunately, (generally) even if an LSE wants to have relational closeness with someone, they have to wait for 'evidence' to accrue. This takes longer the more serious the situation, because the more serious the feelings, and the more serious the risk.

Consistency is important, and more than anything else or any expressions, it will impact things. Sometimes, in an LSE's mind, things just click slowly. I think, for me at least, information concerning people's real relationship to me is so poorly understood that I'm very conservative about it, and tend to err on the side of negativity rather than positivity - so it takes time. But there will be certain things that 'click', that connect and make me realize that someone really feels a certain way about me. Like when someone said that we *better* stay in touch; or, when someone went out of their way to not only spend time with me before I went away, but also brought me cookies and money even though they had little of both, it really made it clear. It actually made me cry because nobody ever really showed that level of deeply caring about me before. . . and sometimes it seems strange when things like happen because I generally assume that people don't feel that way about me or will not in the future.

I've had mixed feelings about some things. It's strange because I'm very sure about how I feel about other people, and if I like someone and like them enough to let the feeling grow, it can become very strong. And yet, when I'm not sure about someone, it makes it very difficult to deal with my own feelings. A lot of LSEs, and delta STs in general, may apply the strategy of "trying to not get to close so as to avoid having to lose someone", especially if they have some relational scar tissue.

I think it is difficult for LSEs to balance the two - the very strong and intense feelings that develop, and the difficulty that comes when you want someone to reciprocate those feelings. And the additional internal stress of realizing that your own personal feelings can make one's analysis less objective, even.

Also, another related but somewhat separate factor is that it really seems like things change all the time. I don't want them to, in terms of having a good positive relationship in someone. But things change so much it is hard for me to accept that something really is stable. Even in the light of evidence, of someone being very stable, it takes me a long time to accept it, to trust it.

It is very strange, because the desire to initiate or start or pursue someone and put effort into someone is there, but it's like I have a hard time interpreting how someone feels about what I'm doing. I actually seem somewhat reserved about actual relationship forming, and I'd like it if someone else was able to take the lead in that or at least 'demonstrate' or indicate that something is there.


PS: when I have someone's full attention for a while and they really do focus on me, that seems to help me relax my 'defenses' about the person having in a relationship with me.

[Marie84]

That sounds exactly like an EII-LSE couple I know. As the last test, she started treating him like crap. He asked her what the deal was and said if she's no longer interested, they shouldn't be dating, and they broke up for a couple of months... which made her realize she really did like him, and they got married.

btw Ryu, that was a very insightful post. I really do love that Delta ST's have all these hidden vulnerabilities and that they place such a high importance in the strength of their relations

[Trevor]

Jesus...what a genius. Lol.

lol yes

[atavist]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, Ryu.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think it's astonishing how people can give advice to a person (two people in this instance) who've known each other for ages and having what seems to be a difficult stage in their relationship, who they don't even know and even over internet but somehow think that their own relationship fears etc can somehow translate into being useful and not condescending or something.

Everyone's different and there are too many factors involved which socionics doesn't necessarily have to do with.

Say the person isn't providing enough effort or w/e, you can say it's because they are such and such a type, but if you're not happy with what they are doing, can't force the person to change.

So maybe you are looking for advice on how to make her "change", can't help you there speak to one of her pals or something.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

For instance,

btw Ryu, that was a very insightful post. I really do love that Delta ST's have all these hidden vulnerabilities and that they place such a high importance in the strength of their relations

Who doesn't?

[Marie84]

For instance,



Who doesn't?

I was referring to Ryu's post, as in the vulnerability that Delta ST's have when it comes to needing someone else to supply the emotional input and security in relationships. The divide between wanting and needing it but being without the skills to supply it, relying on others for assistance and reassurance

I thought that was obvious and didn't require an echoing of what Ryu already posted