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Thread: Oh, well

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    Last edited by Kioshi; 03-18-2009 at 06:44 AM.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    I can't tell, but you are you and it sounds like it's working out. Nice!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
    It's nice that your particular way of expressing yourself is not influenced by the people around you. I really can't say the same. I understand myself through my interactions with others. I've had consultants help me develop ideas/concepts about myself and present it. I can't take full credit.

    I also find that people in these forums don't generally make an effort to understand what they read. And for me, being misunderstood is probably the most painful experience imaginable. So my posts tend to go through extensive editing and review.

    The medium itself is also problematic. It's not very interactive. I don't know my audience, and without feedback I can't really adjust. I am comfortable with the style I am using because I've used it successfully in the past.

    I also have a test audience. She provides feedback on many of my posts. She constantly chastises me because I tend to edit out most of the good stuff. It takes much encouragement from her before I risk posting the little I do post.
    I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here?
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post






    I'm not sure I understand the contrast being made.

    I would agree that I am extremely intellectually-oriented. But I was surprised, as were those around me, to discover that interaction with other people seems largely irrelevant to my life. I really don't see how that could be inferred from anything I've written.

    If you can provide examples, then I will be more than happy to discuss it further.


    what influenced this idea was largely your post in the thread where you said "people are naturally my friends." i'm not sure what it really means in terms of Fe/Fi (if anything; it may instead simply be reflective of intuitive introversion). however, the overall impression i got from it was that you were not a social person and you don't interact naturally or comfortably with others unless they actively engage you. perhaps this was an erroneous impression.

    also, one of the things about you is that you give off an extremely similar sort of intellectual feel of how you approach people as does snegledmaca. and so i may be associating some of the things that he says with you as well; this might not be precisely appropriate, but i feel that the two of you are clones in a way and that you are largely speak for each other and see the same thing in a situation. it's actually the same sort of thing in that (even though she's probably still generally regarded as LIE) i feel like salawa is my clone and that she and i could probably speak for each other easily.

    maybe this is a bad strategy. we'll see.

    I made a career out of socializing. And in team environments, I've always been a natural leader. In environments where people were not the task, the most frequent criticism I received from employers was that I spent too much time socializing.

    If I wanted to make a living being myself, then I had to come up with a marketable self-concept. With some guidance I went with "process consulting" as the best fit for my normal social behavior. It is predominately people-oriented and task-directed. More importantly, it contributes to my development or to the development of others.
    why do you think that this is your preferred career? what do you get out of people-oriented work?

    like for example snegledmaca is a comp sci student. you seem very intellectually and logically oriented as well; could you ever see yourself doing something like that?

    I feel that I am ultimately responsible for my own thoughts and actions. I have to make my own decisions. And I'm not inclined to participate in group decisions.

    I generally have more influence over groups/others than they have over me. But while I tend to view myself as an outsider (an advisor, generally to the group leader) many view me as a "natural leader".
    why do you think that is? what kinds of things do you do and how do you act to encourage the natural development of this kind of social structure?



    also, tell me about the people you correspond with and hang out with. what do you get out of interacting with them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
    I spend the vast majority my free time in trying to gain "insight" into myself and into the people and events around me.

    The purpose of process consulting is to provide clients "insight" into themselves and into the people and events around them. In guiding or coaching them through the process, I gain "insight" into them and into their relationships with the people and events around them.

    I have an insatiable thirst. And it's a well that never goes dry.





    If an individual perceives the provision of "insight" as important and scarce, then my control over it gives me power. I don't have to exercise or even be aware of this power for it to be effective.
    what do you really mean when you refer to "insight?" give me an example of some bit of insight that you might have and how this might help you in a group scenario. or how this might help you personally as an individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    what do you really mean when you refer to "insight?" give me an example of some bit of insight that you might have and how this might help you in a group scenario. or how this might help you personally as an individual.

    as in a tangible real world example.

    because just talking about insight as a vague concept doesn't help me to understand a damn thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    also, one of the things about you is that you give off an extremely similar sort of intellectual feel of how you approach people as does snegledmaca. and so i may be associating some of the things that he says with you as well; this might not be precisely appropriate, but i feel that the two of you are clones in a way and that you are largely speak for each other and see the same thing in a situation. it's actually the same sort of thing in that (even though she's probably still generally regarded as LIE) i feel like salawa is my clone and that she and i could probably speak for each other easily.
    The only person from this site that I can speak for is kriistina, and I only know that because I have done so in the past. I don't know if I could speak for kioshi, but if you would ask me I'd say no. Kioshi feels vastly different from me. His approach might be similar, what he does, but I'd say nothing more. Actually, I'd say definitely no, I don't think I could speak on behalf of kioshi nor that kioshi could speak on behalf of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The only person from this site that I can speak for is kriistina
    No one seems to spell her name correctly Anyways, that's an interesting claim. I have never thought you are that similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    No one seems to spell her name correctly Anyways, that's an interesting claim. I have never thought you are that similar.
    i never thought salawa & niffweed were that similar, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    The only person from this site that I can speak for is kriistina, and I only know that because I have done so in the past. I don't know if I could speak for kioshi, but if you would ask me I'd say no. Kioshi feels vastly different from me. His approach might be similar, what he does, but I'd say nothing more. Actually, I'd say definitely no, I don't think I could speak on behalf of kioshi nor that kioshi could speak on behalf of me.
    have you ever talked to kioshi on any kind of extended fashion? because if you did i think you would find yourselves to be the same person on a number of levels. obviously, without having talked to him, you wouldn't be prepared to make that distinction at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i never thought salawa & niffweed were that similar, either.
    nor did i, until i started to have some extended conversations with her relatively recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    have you ever talked to kioshi on any kind of extended fashion? because if you did i think you would find yourselves to be the same person on a number of levels. obviously, without having talked to him, you wouldn't be prepared to make that distinction at all.
    Well I'd say there is a reason why I didn't speak to him. For example, I've never privately talked to phaedrus and would consider him my identical. A bit on the off side, to put it lightly, but I'd definitely say he thinks like me. Or at least is a complementing type. I'd also consider scarlettlux as somebody who thinks like me. I just don't get that from kioshi.

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    To me it seems as if everything Kioshi has said about himself in this thread, and the way he has said it, is consistent with him being an IEI. Some of the things he has said, and also his self-image, is very uncommon -- or even inconsistent -- with the assumption that he is an ILI or LII. The similarities others may perceive, and the similarity I can sense myself, are of the same kind that I feel with an IEI friend of mine that I have known for many years. He senses that kind of similarity towards me too. We are both observers, we both strongly identify with, and act according to the IP temperament, and we are both clearly intuitives and feel that we can sort of "sense" the flow of time in the typical Ni-dominant way that is described in Socionics.

    But my IEI friend and I are at the same time clearly different in many respects -- both in attitudes and behaviours. We have different focus. He is people-oriented in the same way Kioshi has described himself in this thread. His preferred role in groups are as the mediator or the catalyst, he wants to act in the background as a consultant, and he has helped many individuals, as well as companies, to reach their true potential and to gain financial benefit from their products. He is a true idealist in spirit, he loves art, and he trust his intuition (more than I trust mine). He would probably identify with most, if not all, of the traits that Kioshi has attributed to himself in this thread.

    I, on the other hand, would never identify with, for example, this description:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi
    Essentially, people do not consult with me because of any technical knowledge/expertise I might possess, but rather because I am extremely sensitive to discrepancies, disparities, deviations, variance, conflict, and so forth, and because I can help them in exploring possibilities, options, alternatives, and so forth.


    Possible personal benefits:

    Observing people around me, getting feedback from others, and so forth provides me with insight into my own nature and allow me to achieve the consistency between thoughts/feelings and actions that I mention to Dee.


    Possible benefits in a social context:

    My actions are acceptable to others to the degree that others perceive them as an immediate source of satisfaction or as a means of future satisfaction. Being aware of the needs and feelings of others allows me to decide a course of action which generally meets with little or no resistance. If I'm good at nothing else, it's being able to achieve an objective with minimal conflict.
    This is typically IEI, perfectly consistent with every IEI type description. But it is not me. And this is not me either:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi
    I spend the vast majority my free time in trying to gain "insight" into myself and into the people and events around me.

    The purpose of process consulting is to provide clients "insight" into themselves and into the people and events around them. In guiding or coaching them through the process, I gain "insight" into them and into their relationships with the people and events around them.
    I don't understand how people can possibly believe that what Kioshi describes here is consistent with ILI (or LII for that matter). It is not. Or it is at least very, very untypical of an ILI to express such an attitude and behave in such a way.

    Compared to my IEI friend, I am much more theoretical, much more into analyzing theories, searching scientific knowledge of the world, I am more insensitive to others, much less interested in other people, more aggressive in debates, more trusting in my logical abilities and my reason than in my intuition and my feelings (and in that he and I have opposite attitudes).

    Based on what I have read from Kioshi, I cannot see him and me as identicals. I would say that it is almost impossible. Snegledmaca, on the other hand, could very well be the same type as I am. I'm not 100 % sure about it, but it is certainly much easier for me to imagine him as my identical than Kioshi, and I see it as a strong possibility that snegledmaca and I are both ILIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
    Essentially, people do not consult with me because of any technical knowledge/expertise I might possess, but rather because I am extremely sensitive to discrepancies, disparities, deviations, variance, conflict, and so forth, and because I can help them in exploring possibilities, options, alternatives, and so forth.


    Possible personal benefits:

    Observing people around me, getting feedback from others, and so forth provides me with insight into my own nature and allow me to achieve the consistency between thoughts/feelings and actions that I mention to Dee.


    Possible benefits in a social context:

    My actions are acceptable to others to the degree that others perceive them as an immediate source of satisfaction or as a means of future satisfaction. Being aware of the needs and feelings of others allows me to decide a course of action which generally meets with little or no resistance. If I'm good at nothing else, it's being able to achieve an objective with minimal conflict.

    This doesn't really resound with me... I don't see why this can be used as evidence of being IEI and not EII, if anything the latter seems more likely
    INFp-Ni

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    @ kioshi. those are fascinating examples.

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    Kioshi, you seem very interesting. I enjoy reading your posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
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