Article on presidential candidates; relation to Keirsey and J/P flip

[Jonathan]

This is interesting...the following article has a detailed analysis of presidential candidates. (I know this is Keirsey rather than Socionics, but still this is interesting...)

http://www.slate.com/id/2184696

Using Keirsey's system, it builds detailed cases for:

Hillary Clinton: ESTJ
Bill Clinton: ESFP
Barak Obama: ENFP
John McCain: ESTP

So, if we look at what are widely considered the Socionics types for these people, we have J and P flipped...not the well-known "J/P switch" for introverts...but actually flipping it for extraverts.

(Note...I'm relying here niffweed's typing of McCain as LSE and on those people who see Hillary as SLE, as opposed to LSI.)

[Phaedrus]

Did you notice this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=17041 ?

I know too little of these persons to be sure of their types, but for example Bill Clinton does not look like an ESE on V.I. He both looks more like, and acts more like, an SEE in the interviews I have seen.

There are, of course, some mistyped famous persons in the Socionics community, and those mistypings should be corrected whenever possible. One example is Gordon Ramsay, who is typed by Sergei Ganin as LSI. I have seen many hours of Ramsay in action, and I am very certain that Ramsay is not an LSI. In fact, every other ST type seems more likely than LSI. My current prime bet is LSE, but that bet is not as certain as the bet that he is not an LSI.

[jewels]

This is possible, but Hillary talks in a very ENTJ, big-picture way. Her gestures and speech pattern reminds me of an ENTJ I know.

Also, once ENTJs arrive at conclusions, they can sound ESTJ because they are decisive.

ENTJs focus is on mobilizing groups of people toward and end-result, and I get that vibe from her. It's also possible that she's acting more ESTJ because that's what's expected (as a large portion of presidents tend to be ESTJ).

I think Bill Clinton could be ESFP, but ENFP seems more likely. ENFP guys are just as capable of being players, if not more so. Also, the relation with hilarry makes more sense with ENFP and ENTJ.

Obama is definitely ENFP. He reminds me of the Fi ENFP guys I've known (in a bad way). He just doesn't seem like a good guy to me, and I'm an ENFP saying this. ENFPs are either very good, or very bad. And he unfortunately seems to be one of the cold ones.

McCain, I think could be ESTP or ESTJ. In any event, he seems like a cold selfish man to me.

This is interesting...the following article has a detailed analysis of presidential candidates. (I know this is Keirsey rather than Socionics, but still this is interesting...)

http://www.slate.com/id/2184696

Using Keirsey's system, it builds detailed cases for:

Hillary Clinton: ESTJ
Bill Clinton: ESFP
Barak Obama: ENFP
John McCain: ESTP

So, if we look at what are widely considered the Socionics types for these people, we have J and P flipped...not the well-known "J/P switch" for introverts...but actually flipping it for extraverts.

(Note...I'm relying here niffweed's typing of McCain as LSE and on those people who see Hillary as SLE, as opposed to LSI.)

[Blaze]

if mccain is really an SLE then i think i'm votin for him. we're in a crisis and of the 3, clearly SLE would be the best at handling it.

[marooned]

if mccain is really an SLE then i think i'm votin for him. we're in a crisis and of the 3, clearly SLE would be the best at handling it.

Sunshiny, how can you say this! Even ~if~ SLE would be the best, not all SLEs are the same. Some of them would suck, others wouldn't. Perhaps what you said hinges on that you were mentioning McCain specifically. Why on earth am I contesting this anyway?

[Expat]

If the author is truly knowleadgeable about Keirsey, the article demonstrates how foolish it is to assume that its types or typing assumptions correspond to socionics's.

Also, McCain, both Roosevelts, JFK, and LBJ are all of the same type - ESTP? JFK and LBJ were the same type? Rubbish, in socionics. If they are indeed the same type in Keirsey, all the more evidence that Keirsey is rubbish.

[Wittmont]

if mccain is really an SLE then i think i'm votin for him. we're in a crisis and of the 3, clearly SLE would be the best at handling it.

Aww, this is appalling logic. McCain's platform is to do more of exactly what has put the US economy in the hole in the first place. The US is buckling under excessive debt, much of it caused by war spending and inflationary economic policies which have led to to the housing bubble, credit crunch, declining (dying) dollar among other troubles. McCain promises more war, and more spending at a time when the US banking system is reeling and inflation is taking off big time in basic survival commodities like food and oil, and the dollar is diminishing at an astonishing rate (over 60 % against the euro since Bush came into power and the real fall is starting only now).

The US needs someone sane at the wheel. Unfortunately it looks like a choice between McCain and Hillary (Tweedledum or Tweedledee), ie full speed off the cliff.

Ok, sorry for rant but someone's type cannot possibly be the sole basis for a vote.

[Phaedrus]

If the author is truly knowleadgeable about Keirsey, the article demonstrates how foolish it is to assume that its types or typing assumptions correspond to socionics's.

Also, McCain, both Roosevelts, JFK, and LBJ are all of the same type - ESTP? JFK and LBJ were the same type? Rubbish, in socionics. If they are indeed the same type in Keirsey, all the more evidence that Keirsey is rubbish.

Your attitude here is exactly the one we should not have if we want to get a better understanding of these famous persons. You dismiss everything the Keirseyans are saying (including their typings) and you dismiss their theory without even considering what might be true in it.

Some of the things that are true in that article (and the links) include the facts that I have mentioned, for example that Rick's typing of Bill Clinton is highly questionable on Socionic grounds. He does not look like an ESE, and I haven't seen him act like one either. Maybe I have missed something about his person, but SEE really seems like a better typing from a Socionic perspective.

And what shall we say about the typing of Al Gore as INTP? That typing may be wrong, but what is indisputable from a Socionic perspective is that Gore is a ego type. That is totally obvious. So if a socionist claims that Al Gore is a ego type of some sort, that socionist is clearly wrong.

What this clearly demonstrates is that those Keirseyans are not totally wrong about everything, and that they have got at least something right when they have tried to type those famous people. And we should try to understand what we have in common in our typings instead of dismissing their theory and their typings as crap.

[Blaze]

Aww, this is appalling logic. McCain's platform is to do more of exactly what has put the US economy in the hole in the first place. The US is buckling under excessive debt, much of it caused by war spending and inflationary economic policies which have led to to the housing bubble, credit crunch, declining (dying) dollar among other troubles. McCain promises more war, and more spending at a time when the US banking system is reeling and inflation is taking off big time in basic survival commodities like food and oil, and the dollar is diminishing at an astonishing rate (over 60 % against the euro since Bush came into power and the real fall is starting only now).

The US needs someone sane at the wheel. Unfortunately it looks like a choice between McCain and Hillary (Tweedledum or Tweedledee), ie full speed off the cliff.

Ok, sorry for rant but someone's type cannot possibly be the sole basis for a vote.

i know. i'm just trying to stir the pot here a little. you know what though? we are in a a crisis and we're going to have to stop dicking around and finish this war. hillary is clearly an insider with ambition and her own agenda....obama is too much of a novice. so prolly has to be mccain.

[marooned]

As long as you're not voting for McCain because you think he's a particular type.

[Blaze]

As long as you're not voting for McCain because you think he's a particular type.

actually SLE would be good at handling what i think is definitely the beginning of a long drawn out crisis. this is based on another theory....turnings theory.....you kind of have to be familiar w turnings theory to get why i would think an SLE would be good.

[marooned]

actually SLE would be good at handling what i think is definitely the beginning of a long drawn out crisis. this is based on another theory....turnings theory.....you kind of have to be familiar w turnings theory to get why i would think an SLE would be good.

I don't think McCain's SLE... not that I have a lot of confidence in my typing ability... He seems LSE.

[Jonathan]

Did you notice this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=17041 ?.

No, I didn't see that someone had already posted on this, but it makes sense that others would notice it too.

It's interesting that as soon as I post this, a lot of people say that yes, they can see these people as those types. The power of suggestion.

What I find interesting here is the reasons that quasi-identical types are so often in dispute.

One of the main issues here is that what appears "irrational" to some people appears "Si" to others. Similarly, what appears "rational" to some appears "Se" to others.

It's interesting though that if two typists are consistently off from each other in terms of quasi-identical types, then the intertype relationships will still work for both, for the most part. (Business and kindred types would get mixed up, but even here, there seems to be enough variation in the descriptions of these two relations to cast doubt on how different they really are, or how reliably people can tell the difference.)

[mikemex]

Bill Clinton: ESE (Ne HA)
Hillary Clinton: ILE (Fe HA)

Barack Obama could be IEE.

[Phaedrus]

Bill Clinton: ESE (Ne HA)

No. You will not get away with it so easily. Bill Clinton is probably not an ESE, and Rick has him mistyped. Take a fresh look at Clinton again, please.

[mikemex]

Done, and I'm sure of what I stated before. Barack Obama is IEE for sure.

It explains why Obama and Clinton are friendly toward each other and at the same time overly critical of each other. Obama criticizes Clinton in Fi grounds while Clinton criticizes Obama on Ti grounds.

[liveandletlive]

This is interesting...the following article has a detailed analysis of presidential candidates. (I know this is Keirsey rather than Socionics, but still this is interesting...)

http://www.slate.com/id/2184696

Using Keirsey's system, it builds detailed cases for:

Hillary Clinton: ESTJ
Bill Clinton: ESFP
Barak Obama: ENFP
John McCain: ESTP

So, if we look at what are widely considered the Socionics types for these people, we have J and P flipped...not the well-known "J/P switch" for introverts...but actually flipping it for extraverts.

(Note...I'm relying here niffweed's typing of McCain as LSE and on those people who see Hillary as SLE, as opposed to LSI.)

i didn't read the article but i disagree with all of those typings. IMHO:

Hill- LSI
Bill- ESE
Bam- EIE
Mc- SLI

[Jonathan]

i didn't read the article but i disagree with all of those typings. IMHO:

Hill- LSI
Bill- ESE
Bam- EIE
Mc- SLI

Right, that was the point. They put each of these people in what would be the opposing quadra from if one maps the letters directly (according to your analysis and others).

I don't have a firm opinion on these people's types, especially mcC, whom I haven't watched much, but I found that this "flip" was interesting.

[JRiddy]

Aww, this is appalling logic. McCain's platform is to do more of exactly what has put the US economy in the hole in the first place. The US is buckling under excessive debt, much of it caused by war spending and inflationary economic policies which have led to to the housing bubble, credit crunch, declining (dying) dollar among other troubles. McCain promises more war, and more spending at a time when the US banking system is reeling and inflation is taking off big time in basic survival commodities like food and oil, and the dollar is diminishing at an astonishing rate (over 60 % against the euro since Bush came into power and the real fall is starting only now).

The US needs someone sane at the wheel. Unfortunately it looks like a choice between McCain and Hillary (Tweedledum or Tweedledee), ie full speed off the cliff.

Ok, sorry for rant but someone's type cannot possibly be the sole basis for a vote.

This isn't a political debate forum, so I shouldn't say too much, but the threat of overspending is not limited to McCain. Clinton and Obama would cut back on war spending, but likely spend even more domestically.

But in concord with what you said--perhaps even taking it a step further--socionic type shouldn't even really be an issue in decided who to vote for. My understanding is that you should take a look at the candidates to see which ones will do the best job of achieving the goals that you find important. The arguments should center on "What goals are important?" and "How effective will this candidate be at achieving said goals?"

[tcaudilllg]

actually SLE would be good at handling what i think is definitely the beginning of a long drawn out crisis. this is based on another theory....turnings theory.....you kind of have to be familiar w turnings theory to get why i would think an SLE would be good.

Someone should put a picture of Dubya on the deck of the U.S.S. Cole in response to this one.

Type has nothing at all to do with suitability for any public office.