knowing what you want and how to get it

[Joy]

I've noticed that the Gamma SF's I've known are typically really good at getting what they want. They are well aware of their likes and dislikes and desires, and they expect that things will go the way they want them to go, even to the extent of looking a bit like a "spoiled brat".

Fortunately, Gamma NT's love that Gamma SF's are so intent on want they want, and they are typically delighted to oblige whenever they can (provided they're getting the Fi they want/need from the Gamma SF, of course).

I've been thinking about this and have decided that knowing what they want is related to Fi and knowing how to get it is related to Se. Obviously, every healthy person has things (s)he wants as well as ways of getting some of those things, but I think there's something to be said for the relation between Se and making things happen. Consider Augusta's description of Se dominants:

Black (extraverted) sensing

Perceives information about what might be called objects' "kinetic energy" — for example, information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. This perception implies the ability to tell what reserves of "kinetic energy" people have and how useful they can be in getting things done. It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.

When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses exceptional personal force/will. He is a born organizer of anything. He has the ability to mobilize people to achieve a goal and is able to make use of and manage animate and inanimate objects. Is able to work with things (objects) and reproduce almost any objects based on available samples. This is a reflection of his ability to organize material. These people are known for their striving to materialize their will, energy, and power, and for their desire to impose their will on others.

I colored the words organizer and organize to note that I believe that "organizer" used in this context refers to the ability to direct different people and energies to a specific goal, and that "organize" refers to the ability to maximize objects' capacity for utilization as desired... it's got nothing to do with being neat and tidy.



So anyways, have others noticed this trait in the Gamma SF's they've known?

[xyz]

[Joy]

omg, shoes.

[Mea]

I'm not sure about getting what they want all the time.
But they seem to usually know what they want.

[Joy]

Not all the time, of course. They're better at it than most though. And they certainly tend to expect it more than most as well.

[BLauritson]

One of my SEE coworkers who I'm quite close with sometimes asks me to do things for her. Well, not so much nowadays because we're in a new office and quite far apart from eachother, but when we used to be in the same office she'd get me to do little things for her, like say if she'd just printed something on the office printer she'd sometimes ask me to fetch it for her. One thing I've noticed in the new office is that occasionally if I'm walking past her, she'll usually do something like put her hand on my upper arm or something like that, almost like grabbing my arm without the gripping motion, in order to get my attention, then asks me to do something. It might be a sort of "could you take this with you" sort of request or something of that nature. It's only little things like that, she wouldn't make me do her shopping for her for example . I don't think she does that with anyone else in the office, or at least not as far as I'm aware. But yeah, little things like that really. Obviously there's a limit to how much I'd do, depending on my energy levels and what it is she asks etc., but I usually oblige. I'm only like this for specific people though; if someone I didn't really like that much asked me to do things for them I'd be reluctant (assuming said person wasn't an authority figure or anything like obviously).

[Joy]

I've learned through observation and experience (in my wilder days) that most men like to be told what to do. Or at least they did when I was the one telling them to do it. Not that this has anything to do with this topic or anything. Your post just reminded me of that for some reason.

I also learned that being obnoxious and bitchy often gets you what you want, too. (I was really not myself for a while there. That's what happens when one's dual seeking function isn't fulfilled! They act out.)

[Not A Communist Shill]

To get what you want with as little effort as possible, make someone else do it.

I find that I like being told what to do, because I perceive follow these orders will improve my chances of success, so to speak. Well, that's the theory anyway. Though I suppose a sense of self-respect is a virtue that can be appreciated by others too...it also means I get to use less energy. If you do what others tell you, they might think you are after something.

Also, if I pretend to be mentally disturbed while holding a knife, people seem to do what ever I ask of them.

...oh, and asking nicely...that's one I hadn't thought of.

[FDG]

I have witnessed some gamma SFs saying that "they always get what they want". To me, it only looked like complete foolishness. To really think that you can always get what you wants means either choosing to small of goals, or being delusional.

[liveandletlive]

what's weird about this thread is before i opened it up and just read the name of the thread i was like, "oo sounds like me!" haha but yeah i definitely agree with this with me at least. i mean we're realistic and if we think that it's possible we can get something we want then we're gonna do it.

@FDG- we're not delusional and it can be small goals too, but it more stems from the whole blocked with thing.

it's weird cuz im sure i come off as a spoiled brat sometimes when i want something, but in all other cases i couldn't be more opposite. i'm actually pretty low-maintenance and i'm a really generous person... haha just throwing that out there!

[FDG]

@FDG- we're not delusional and it can be small goals too, but it more stems from the whole blocked with thing.

Yeah, okay, I don't want to say that every gamma SF is delusional, that's for sure! But in my opinion, that reasoning can only be applied to small things, because only those things are devoid of uncertainty.

Example: I can too know that I want to climb a given mountain, go there, and climb it the same day I have decided I wanted to. But if I wanted to be a top soccer player, I could not get there by any means since I just don't have the talent.

I've also had a bad experience with an ISFj that had that kind of mindset and the thing she wanted was me. I didn't like her at all so she obviously could not get me, and that drove her mad?? It's just stupid imho.

[Ms. Kensington]

yeah one thing with ESFps is that the immediacy of their desires is difficult to deal with, espeicailly when someone with Ti is not seeing any consistency in them. I think an ISFj is more likely to defer to the desires of others, but they will still have an immediacy to theirs. (i had trouble even understanding your post, lall.. hehe.. like "i act like a spoiled brat but im really generous) i mean i know its possible but i dont know what to think right away.

This thread reminds me of why i would be so confused as to why I didn't seem to be good at planning how to get what I want because I didn't really know what I wanted, and many times getting confused at why this would be because I associated the best (fastest, most efficient way) to get things with Te, which theoretically I am strong in as a Ti dominant. But I guess it would make sense if i had weak and was avoiding conscious use of Se, as well as compensatory use of Si miring in some comfortable, still activity.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

I've never been a spoiled brat. I've known as long as I can remember that there are some things you can't or shouldn't have. I only pursue those things that I want and that would in my opinion be good to have. I really couldn't take advantage of someone without feeling really bad, and that's what comes to mind when I think of a spoiled brat - someone without too many scruples doing whatever they can to get what they want.

If something is mine, or should be mine I will certainly fight for it and not give up. But, I try to respect other people and what's theirs too.

This is consistent with the "spoiled brat" thing I was talking about, actually. It's not like Gamma SF's just randomly decide that they have to have all of this frivolous stuff (especially ESI's). And they aren't greedy or mean or anything like that (though any type can be, of course). But if there's something that they decide they want and should have, they're good at getting it (not that they always do, of course). Things that are perfectly reasonable given the situation, but if you look at it from an outside perspective it may seem like those around that person are giving them more or doing more for them than they would most people (not that it's not mutual, of course). When they're younger, someone might say "wow, your parents let you do that?" or "wow, your parents let you get away with that?" or something along those lines. When they get older, they get privileges and special treatment with bosses, coworkers, spouses, friends, etc. They don't see it that way because they understand it as perfectly fair and reasonable (and it probably is), but it's still not something that just anyone can easily get or that's all that common.

I think part of this talent lies in their ability to understand what other people want, too (sometimes even better than they do) and their ability to give them what they want. Maybe this is what the descriptions are talking about when they say that Gamma SF's (especially SEE's) are good at gaining power through "social maneuvering" or building relationships or whatever?

[Logos]

Therefore, I am now a Gamma SF.

[MysticSonic]

Yea, to be honest I know how I want and also how to get it it most of the time. The issue is working up the will power to PURSUE it.

[Gilly]

I would say they can run into some big obstacles, compared to other types, with figuring out exactly how to get what they want; this is what their duals are for. Implementing those methods once they have them, well, that would probably be a better compliment for Beta STs. But on the whole I guess I can see where you're coming from; as an Alpha NT my biggest problem, without a doubt, is knowing what I want. Getting it once I do know, well, nothing could be easier.

[meatburger]

I have witnessed some gamma SFs saying that "they always get what they want".

I was in the car once with an ESFp girl we know and thats exactly what she said. My ENTj friend said "well you wanted me but you never got me....". Owned.

She is only of average charisma and attractivenss though. I could imagine some attractive ESFp's actually getting what they want most of the time.

[Expat]

Once I was talking to a SLE work colleague about things in general; at one point he said "before I got married, I got to have every woman that I wanted to have".

I said, "I think it's more likely that, when you could not have a woman, you then decided that you hadn't really wanted her in the first place".

[Joy]

I was in the car once with an ESFp girl we know and thats exactly what she said. My ENTj friend said "well you wanted me but you never got me....". Owned.

She is only of average charisma and attractivenss though. I could imagine some attractive ESFp's actually getting what they want most of the time.

I think they tend to think that they always get what they want because it's their general attitude. It's not that they don't think they're capable of losing or failing, it's just that their mindset (and I'm talking about SEE's here) is one of focusing on their successes. And it's an attitude and mindset that serves them well.

Once I was talking to a SLE work colleague about things in general; at one point he said "before I got married, I got to have every woman that I wanted to have".

I said, "I think it's more likely that, when you could not have a woman, you then decided that you hadn't really wanted her in the first place".

Yeah, like with meatburger's friend, she probably thought/said something like "I just decided that you're not worth the effort" or "I could have eventually had you if I wanted to, but I changed my mind".

[Logos]

I completely understand. This morning I said, "I want waffles." So I went to the local IHOP and said, "Waitress (that was her real name, by the way, it said so on her badge), I would like to partake in eating the waffles of your dining establishment, because waffles are what I want, and I know how to get them and I will not take no for answer." And just like that, she brought me out a plate of waffles after 15 minutes of waiting.

[Joy]

Your mother must be proud.

[Joy]

I'll be sure to tell her next time I see her.

[ScarlettLux]

Old thread, but I came across it and wow, does it ever sound like me O__o

I never really doubt whether I am capable of getting what I want - I usually have those immediate desires that Ms. Kensington finds inconsistent.

However, my problem lies more in finding the best way to get what I want, the path of least resistance, the method that will guarantee me easiest & fastest success.

In this, I guess I could see it as dual seeking. I always have whimsical desires such as my recent one - changing my name legally - and ask for any information I can get on the process. Then I just dive headlong into it.

Btw: It's actually pretty complicated to do so and it costs $

[ScarlettLux]

I think they tend to think that they always get what they want because it's their general attitude. It's not that they don't think they're capable of losing or failing, it's just that their mindset (and I'm talking about SEE's here) is one of focusing on their successes. And it's an attitude and mindset that serves them well.



Yeah, like with meatburger's friend, she probably thought/said something like "I just decided that you're not worth the effort" or "I could have eventually had you if I wanted to, but I changed my mind".

Yep, this is a mindset that I relate to.

[mikemex]

I have witnessed some gamma SFs saying that "they always get what they want". To me, it only looked like complete foolishness. To really think that you can always get what you wants means either choosing to small of goals, or being delusional.

Amen!

[Joy]

Yep, this is a mindset that I relate to.

I sorta wonder if this is in part a positivist thing?

[Joy]

This is consistent with the "spoiled brat" thing I was talking about, actually. It's not like Gamma SF's just randomly decide that they have to have all of this frivolous stuff (especially ESI's). And they aren't greedy or mean or anything like that (though any type can be, of course). But if there's something that they decide they want and should have, they're good at getting it (not that they always do, of course). Things that are perfectly reasonable given the situation, but if you look at it from an outside perspective it may seem like those around that person are giving them more or doing more for them than they would most people (not that it's not mutual, of course). When they're younger, someone might say "wow, your parents let you do that?" or "wow, your parents let you get away with that?" or something along those lines. When they get older, they get privileges and special treatment with bosses, coworkers, spouses, friends, etc. They don't see it that way because they understand it as perfectly fair and reasonable (and it probably is), but it's still not something that just anyone can easily get or that's all that common.

I think part of this talent lies in their ability to understand what other people want, too (sometimes even better than they do) and their ability to give them what they want. Maybe this is what the descriptions are talking about when they say that Gamma SF's (especially SEE's) are good at gaining power through "social maneuvering" or building relationships or whatever?

Do you relate to this, ScarlettLux?

btw, in my state all you really need to do to change you name on your driver's license is go down to the DMV and say "I'm known in my community as *insert new name here*, and they'll make a new driver's license for you (at least that's what an attorney told me a number of years ago). Changing it on your social security card requires a court order though.

[ScarlettLux]

Do you relate to this, ScarlettLux?

btw, in my state all you really need to do to change you name on your driver's license is go down to the DMV and say "I'm known in my community as *insert new name here*, and they'll make a new driver's license for you (at least that's what an attorney told me a number of years ago). Changing it on your social security card requires a court order though.

Yep, I definitely relate to that. A lot of my friends usually are very surprised by how much I seem to "get" from my parents in terms of freedom, etc. ... just in general whatever I want. It does appear that I am a spoiled brat on the outside, but I would never take/ask for something I didn't think was rightfully mine, so to speak. I sort of reason it out to myself that I do need whatever it is that I want. In terms of generosity like liveandletlive was saying about herself, I think I'm more generous with my personal resources than anything else. I consider taking time to listen to people, etc. generous.

Do Alpha quadra members have some weird thing with gift-giving? It's something I've noticed, at least in ESEs... they take it pretty seriously, it's kind of funny. I think gifts should be given not because "they have to be" but if you really, really value that person.\

ETA: I do consider myself good at social manipulation - err, I don't really like that word, it makes me sound bad, but I suppose that is what describes it. When I really try, I can pretty much weasel myself into any "group", become close with certain select members and thus, appear to be very important within the group dynamic in a short while.

[Rubicon]

Yeah - I love picking out presents for people.

[snegledmaca]

It's fun to give presents.

I view it as in insult. That is, if I don't know the person or don't feel that "close" to them. I keep silent, as I have learnt that if you voice any kind of disapproval in such a situation you are labeled as a monster, but I will make sure to limit my contact with the person, preferably avoid them in the future. Much like scarlettlux mentioned, gifts are to be given as a reflection of ones bond with another. If they are to be given.

[Joy]

I wonder if this does strongly relate to Fe valuing versus Fi valuing?

Sounds more like bitter and defensive vs. not.

(And yes, this applies to me to some extent as well in the way I feel about Christmas. I do think that my distaste for holidays is type related, but the level of resentment I've felt about them in the past wasn't.)

[Joy]

thanks

(someone PMed me and told me it was creepy )

[Joy]

Yep, I definitely relate to that. A lot of my friends usually are very surprised by how much I seem to "get" from my parents in terms of freedom, etc. ... just in general whatever I want. It does appear that I am a spoiled brat on the outside, but I would never take/ask for something I didn't think was rightfully mine, so to speak. I sort of reason it out to myself that I do need whatever it is that I want. In terms of generosity like liveandletlive was saying about herself, I think I'm more generous with my personal resources than anything else. I consider taking time to listen to people, etc. generous.

Do Alpha quadra members have some weird thing with gift-giving? It's something I've noticed, at least in ESEs... they take it pretty seriously, it's kind of funny. I think gifts should be given not because "they have to be" but if you really, really value that person.

ETA: I do consider myself good at social manipulation - err, I don't really like that word, it makes me sound bad, but I suppose that is what describes it. When I really try, I can pretty much weasel myself into any "group", become close with certain select members and thus, appear to be very important within the group dynamic in a short while.

This does indeed sound SEE.

[Logos]

Do Alpha quadra members have some weird thing with gift-giving? It's something I've noticed, at least in ESEs... they take it pretty seriously, it's kind of funny. I think gifts should be given not because "they have to be" but if you really, really value that person.

Why do you think that they do not? I do not think that this is something that is necessarily restricted to quadras or types.