ILE/ENTp Subtypes

[Wynch]

I find Ne-sub to be more socially outgoing but more intellectually reserved (note: this means less aggressive in the defense of their ideas, not stupid or illogical) while Ti-sub is more socially reserved but more intellectually outgoing. I think this matches what I've said about emphasis on Fe vs. Si in ILE sub-types as well as what has been expressed by all of the descriptions on the wiki.

well guys, of course i know about the subtype theory, but ARE YOU SURE the 2 ego functions make the difference? why? the only approach to a Ti i see for the Logical subtype would be a kind of "holding back" but is this actually tied to Ti only? for me, one subtype resembles a bit to Si or Fi (named intuitive subtype), the other would look more Te or Fe rather than Ti (named logical subtype).

besides, how can you explain the Ti-inclined subtype is more social, relaxed in society, talkative, etc.? this is in no case a Ti threat! all this subtypes theory has a good observation but a bad explanation.

I blatantly disagree with the bolded statements. In fact, I think the opposite is true and presents itself in the descriptions you're using from the wiki, in practical theory, and in observed trends in the sub-typed ILEs here. Ti-subs seem to resemble Si-subs and valuers while Ne-subs seem to resemble Fe-subs and valuers. I mean the people who identify with Ne sub-type like JRiddy and Allie often present and act in a more Fe-oriented fashion. They participate a lot in the general tom-foolery of fun and animated discussion and seem to stop and consider before jumping into any of the more serious discussions, waiting until they have a very valid point to make and contribute. They're much more easily drawn into the "Fe" atmosphere. Ti sub-types like myself and Steve participate in the "Fe", but I find that we both usually hold back until we have something particularly witty to say. While Steve is certainly more reserved than myself, it's been brought up that both of us have a more relaxed and grounded quality about us in the social setting then Allie or Riddy who almost always have something fun and quirky to add. Wile observing these things on the forum and on stickam, I've noticed that these qualities are a lot like those of Luis or Jessica (Si-ISTp), who tend to hold back on stickam and seem to be a little more self-serving in conversation. Certainly I find myself more concerned with my sense of personal harmony, than the atmosphere of the group. Heck, I often participate in the riling of a rhetorical argument, ruin the F environment, then hypocritically decide that I'm done with it and that the discussion is over because I don't like it anymore and feel it's pointless.

In anycase, I disagree with you entirely here. I don't think Ti is more "social". I think the opposite is true. I think you're reading too much into "Their seemingly shy demeanour combines with coolness and obstinacy when they begin to defend their point of view." from the wikisocion, which I feel refers to the process of intellectual discussion and not to sociability.

The first kind is like JRiddy or hkkmr. They use Ti in a more obvious way than the other kind (NO, not because they are Ti subtype; fuck subtypes for now). They like to have their systematic views etc. all worked out, and will often express these to others. What differentiates them from the LII is that they are quite clearly EP, regardless of how their Ti is expressed.

The second kind is like Allie, Sunshine Lively and maybe Suomea. They're much more playful than the first kind, and can't really be bothered coming up with systematised views. Nonetheless, what makes them ILE is the way their mind works. They enjoy the Alpha atmosphere, and their Fi PoLR is normally quite clear (probably more clear than the first kind).

Wow, Riddy is intensely Ne when you talk to him on Stickam, I have no idea where this idea of yours is coming from. Yes, certainly he has his ideas set out wrt socionics, but I think this has more to do with experience and the taking in of ideas than of any kind of active rearranging and application of theory for himself. Sure, he has opinions on things (so do Allie, SL and Suomea, if you pay attention and talk to them about them), but he doesn't seem to actively pursue the exploration and dissemination of these ideas. I don't think ideas and theories are his ultimate goal, I think he uses Ti to defend his Ne perspective.

Then, with Sunshine_Lively, I've never actually spoken with her personally, but her participation in the playful alpha atmosphere is usually low-key. If anything, I think you're more likely to see her commenting on the more intellectually-oriented discussions than in the playfulness. And when she does choose to comment, she's usually more reserved about it. A little more serious and with some definite opinions of her own.

Also, I think you're failing to take into account other factors like age, maturity, experience, areas of interest etc.

[Wynch]

please stop, you're very wrong. THE WIKI WRITES EXACTLY THE REVERSE!!! i don't want to ignore you just because of a such foolish matter, otherwise you seem to understand the things clearly enough .
on the wiki the descriptions is shown that the Ne subtype is more reserved, cautious but more aggressive in defending his ideas and uncompromising - while the Ti is more ambitious, inpatient, confident and socially outgoing but more prone to make compromises for his plans to go on. no offence, until we clear this up we have nothing to argue about this topic.
one more thing, i think playfulness has nothing to do with any of the ILE subtypes. both can be playful at times and serious and busy about their interests. the Ti subtype is focused on business - the Ne is focused on doctrine but both do only what they are interested in. this is what i call selectivity and don't believe is influenced by the ILE's ego functions.

First: The wiki is not the oracle of all wisdom on socionics. Most of it is written by people like you and me who are merely expressing their interpretations of translations from russian sources.

Second: You are selectively choosing which of the descriptions you feel suits your understanding best, it appears. I think it's important to consider the theory and practical evidence more than one description on a wiki.

Third: There is nothing in the descriptions you favour that speaks of out-goingness or reservation. Certainly there seems to be evidence of your selective vs. non-selective theory there, though I think I would rename those categories as decisive vs. considering. From there, if you think of Ti as decisive and Ne as considering (which you seem to do) you can see the relationship between those and IJ vs. EP temperaments. Ti will lean towards IJ temperament while Ne will lean even more strongly towards EP temperament.

[Blaze]

i think subtype theory is splitting hairs anyway. there's tons of variation within type that can't be accounted for by using socionics theory.

[Not A Communist Shill]

One interesting subtype theory I heard:

being less dominant in the forground implies an increase in the use of as an element. being less dominant implies greater use of .

Since a Ti-subtype restricts his use of Ne in favour of Ti, this necessiates greater activity in his use of Se. Since an Ne-subtype presumably restricts his use of Ti in favour of Ne, then this necessiates greater activity in his use of Fi.

What exactly do you mean by use? Perhaps it could be like this:

Ti subtype - greater activity in his use of SuperEgo block Se
Ne subtype - greater activity in his use of SuperEgo block Fi

i.e. maybe a Ti subtype individual becomes more averse to Se?

[EllaC]

Are Ti's more boring than the latter? I swear they seem less excitable and happy! What other differences are there?

[Khola aka Bee]

Not in the bedroom! No, Ti = more awesome. More tolerant of my constant prodding and whining about random stuff while force-feeding cups of tea from my experiences..

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

gilly and discjoe were funny and endearing back then.

[chemical]

I think if you don't get too caught up in the inert/contact stuff and just view vertical subtypes as stemming from the basic Jungian oppositions, one way to tell the difference is that Ne-subtype should be the one you much less likely could mistake for a logic base, and may appear more like an ethical type, to the point where you sort of have to decide between the two kinds of ethics. The two "contact" subtypes are ones that sort of straddle the lines.
Basically with say LII, you trace the course of cognition and see how much does someone seem to proceed from a logic/thinking standard of inquiry purely, where intuition simply underscores the kinds of contents they are working with rather than truly speaking to the nature of their process. (Note - I'm trying to do this for myself so not claiming it's all straightforward, but I'm finding it useful)

Side note, I wonder what Gulenko's subtype is.

[chemical]

Now I think about it, another comment: in subtypes, strengthening happens in pairs. However, in practice, this doesn't mean that both pairs will show the strength equally - the strengthening occurs on the potential level, not the practical. If your ethics potential is strengthened, and you exhibit a marked Fe over Fi preference, then you will tend to show a similar disposition towards Fi-POLR that the Ti-subtype does. However it'll be Fe, not Ti, blocking Fi.

Now that I think about it though, this effect where one thing strengthens and the other is left totally bereft might just be more applicable to the lower level information elements. While I'm sure a Ti-LII might not exactly be thrilled when Te comes about as the main perspective, I think simply the fact of the matter that no complete cognitive process is wholly introverted or extraverted might lead them to roll with the little Te needed in an automatic way when they continue with their Ti thought activity. I've been thinking Kant must be a Ti-subtype. I think perhaps the way it works is if you truly suppress Te that much, the principle that some level of extraverting must happen despite predominance of introversion is carried by the intuitive function. In other words, when one must acknowledge connections inherent to objects, however much one's cognitive aims always move back to something rational and introverted, one must do so intuitively rather than through the attitude of technical implementation of a program. The way to say this might be that the thinking subtype remains ignoring of Te, but it occurs automatically, whereas the intuitive subtype might more directly experience the frustrations inherent to the unpreferred side of thinking, because they aren't entirely logical/categorical in judgment. Just so many ways everything interplays and affects everything else.

[Soupman]

By the way, you are only a T subtype when your preference is ''terminal'', ie you enjoy finishing all your projects. You are ''initial'' if and only if you are someone that is constantly open to new projects

[SlavaPHP]

I noticed that ENTP n subtype organizes concepts while t subtype explains what his n absorbed

[Dionysius]

According to Gulenko, Logical subtype goes to parties and is very business oriented, while it's not that common for Intuitive subtype.

ILE-Ne is a fucked up type: impractical, naive and more socially awkward. Ti sub is more active and "ESTp"-like.

"Because of his innate impracticality and gullibility, he can be easily fooled." (Intuitive subtype, Meged and Ovcharov)

ILE-Ne has an abnormal body, clothes don't fit well, often with stocky built. ILE-Ti is more normal in his bodily structure.

Ne sub is also more prudent and diplomatic (Si/Fi enforced)
Ti sub is often hot-tempered and audacious. (Se/Fe enforced)

Basically Ne subtype is what Meged calls as "floating in the clouds, childishly naive", totally abstract and crazy. His thoughts are somewhat disorganized.
Ti sub is more adapted to real life: "Projects an impression of a serious person". His thoughts are way more organized.

[Dionysius]

Side note, I wonder what Gulenko's subtype is.

I've seen one time a page with socionist's types which listed Gulenko as LII-Ne.

[chemical]

@Viktor - happen to have the link?

[Dionysius]

@chemical

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ory:Socionists

[chemical]

@Viktor - any idea whose typings those are: Dmitriy Lytov commonly goes by ILE and is listed as LII there, so probably isn't his typings

[Dionysius]

@chemical

I don't have any idea of the author, but the couple indeed seems ILE-Ti (his wife) and LII-Ne (Dmitriy):

lytov.jpg

[chemical]

Fair enough; my understanding is Lytov does tend to have a slightly different take on typing than other socionists on some matters, i.e. to be understood for his own viewpoint rather than taking as mainstream or discarded either.

[Avalonia]

I've met many other Russian socionists who currently have differing opinions on the subtype theory.

Some people like it, others use it as if it were a pure theory with no practical base at all, and even some socionists refuse to regard it's existence.

Whether or not you believe it is "heresy" it provides a valid understanding on why people of the same type still have different external and internal behavioral patterns.

The ILE type is quite capable of using their to the point of desiring to express themselves and fascinate others with their knowledge of new and unusual phenomena of how the external world works, while at the same time using their as a cold and rational substitution of to categorize, research, and perfect their ideas to the point of stemming the innovation of the creation of new technological processes.

The subtype is focused on the creation of ideas and theories, without them needing to be complete for his or the satisfaction of others.
The subtype is focused on the depth of ideas and theories, increasing and mobilizing their capacity for quality and development of the overall main idea or question that it relates to.

[silke]

Side note, I wonder what Gulenko's subtype is.

His would be the Ne subtype. Reading his articles I've noticed that he tends to gallop through the conceptual space without carefully treating each subject and explaining what he means in all detail (which has a side effect of complicating the translations). Such strong associative ability in place of a more analytical approach is indicative of heightened intuition.

[Dionysius]

The answer for the main difference between subtypes is in Meged's subtype theory, which is fundamentally based on the dichotomies Internal x External, and Involved x Abstract.

In ENTp Ne-subtypes, Ne sub is Internal (NF), and Ti sub is External (ST). Their different filters of reality produce very different perspectives/worldviews, as well as different attitudes toward the world and people.

Ne subtype see the world in a much more colorful and idealistic way. Has a broader perspective, but with less focus and depth. Strenghtened imagination (Ni), alongside with romantic beliefs about politics and societal ethics often causes a naive faith about humanity and people. They might believe that people are good (Fi) and could live in a harmonious (Ne) society. Karl Marx is probably an ILE-Ne subtype.

Ti subtype is more skeptical about people and ethics, and has a narrower focus. Often deeply immersed in analysis, with attention to details (Si). Stronger Se and Te give them a more grounded, realistic sense of reality. Gives less importance to broader societal problems, as his main concern are his own things: work, research, art, etc. Einstein is a classic example of an ILE-Ti subtype.

Both subtypes can be charismatic or anti-social, although friendliness and sociability comes much easier to Ne subtype, while Ti subtype more likely will show a serious, darker vibe. However, Fe Hidden Agenda is relatively strong, so it can be used whenever ILEs want.

With regards to professional pursuits, Ti subtype generally has a clearer inclination towards business Te and wealth Se. Some may engage in sports taking good care of their bodies - Se. Main focus generally are science and business, although when not well-developed in Logic, might express themselves through art.

Ne is more likely to be a lazy hobo, accepting of a simple life, if just it's fulfilled of good emotions Fe and someone providing comfort Si to them. (I have 2 ILE Ne subtype friends: one dates an SLI for more than 3 years, another dated an SEI for years, and now dates an LSI. All types with 4D-Si. Both are not very ambitious and just seek to enjoy life.)

[The Exception]

By the way, you are only a T subtype when your preference is ''terminal'', ie you enjoy finishing all your projects. You are ''initial'' if and only if you are someone that is constantly open to new projects

Supposedly I'm an "initial" subtype but I relate to both of these statements. I'm always open to new projects and like starting them AND I want to finish what I start. I don't like having loose ends.

I've seen one time a page with socionist's types which listed Gulenko as LII-Ne.

Also Creative subtype in DCNH. Although lately, he's gotten a bit too creative with the theory.

[Jerdle]

The subtypes are simple.

NeTi

FiSe

FeSi

NiTe

Ne-sub has stronger inert IMEs, whereas Ti-sub has stronger contact IMEs.

So ILE-Ne is more similar to IEE-Ne (and so Delta), whereas ILE-Ti is more like SLE-Ti (and so Beta).

[Disturbed]

Few things are more mysterious to me as to the Ne subtype being so commonly seen as friendlier, fatter, or more creative. The opposite is true from my observations although TBFair I haven't met many Ne subs but from all that I've seen and I've seen a lot, the Ti subs are playful, more relaxed, and not as serious; they can and often do have a dark vibe, but they're really not very serious except in the workplace when they're trying to accomplish a goal (e.g., my ILE-Ti 4th grade teacher was pretty serious in the classroom, but not so much outside the classroom, distrusting, and not super-creative but still kind of creative, and she was quite unpredictable, and MOST ILE-Ti are VERY light-hearted or give the impression that they are if they have no heart than she was) in demeanor IMO. ILE-Ti speech sounds more upbeat to me too and in a more questioning tone and their language usage is more original. Kimberly Kaine is probably the most serious, angriest ILE-Ti I can think of, but she's also one of the like, 3, most creative people ever. She has excellent Ni-imagination. Her IQ has to be off the charts.

I agree with @Jerdle that ILE-Ti is more like SLE-Ti and Beta but they're still almost always distinguishable to me.

Sarah Silverman is the Ti subtype and Conan O'brien is the Ne subtype. How the hell could anyone find Conan O'brien more playful and especially more dynamic and more creative than Sarah Silverman? Of course there are Ti subtypes that aren't super strong in logic and they go into comedy and art instead. And they're more melodramatic since they VALUE Fe more (SLE-Ti are more melodramatic than IEE-Ne).

I find Ne type really boring and a lot less exciting and less sexy, and they have a lot less variety in their lives and do a lot less actions (unless they're really fixated on something). The Ti subtype goes everywhere at any random times, the Ne subtype tries to stay home or just in a few places. Ti subtype seems to be asking and tactical and creating original things while Ne sub seems more declaring and strategic and more into consuming innovative things. Same goes with Fi (less creative, seems more strategic and declaring, consumes art more) and Se (creates more art, entertains more, watches other people less, consumes less art, seems more tactical and asking) subs of ESI. ILE-Ti is probably the least predictable type in the socion followed by SEE-Se and then maybe IEE-Fi and LSI-Se. Most predictable (and monotonous and uncreative) would probably be ESI-Fi and LSI-Ti.

Also, Ti subtype is also quite naive (not socially, but about their proposed solutions), as they're more likely than most people to oppose euthanasia (they're big believers in psychiatry and that's one reason I say they're naive, because my brain is hardwired for me to never get enough satisfication from life and nothing an ILE-Ti, as much as I love them, could ever do to end my demons and I would imagine they couldn't use any psychiatric methods to end some other peoples' demons to that person's satisfaction), and often quite vehemently and violently. While, there are a few who are ok with it, they are still more against voluntary euthanasia than the average person. They are also often quite religious, devout believers in God simply because EIE clerics or their EIE fathers have conditioned them to believe in it.

[Rebelondeck]

"Subtype" is misleading terminology because it suggests uniqueness in information processes when there's no difference. "Imbalance" is perhaps a more accurate term; an ILE can have an input (Ne) or output (Ti) imbalance meaning too much time is habitually spent on one or the other set of processes, which indicates an overall inefficiency in the information control system. There's only a small percentage of people with such imbalances, but spending, for example, 10% more time on one side isn't a significant imbalance. One has to look beyond public images to the actual data processing for a proper type assessment keeping in mind that much of the behaviour that we observe is due to baggage from life experiences not type.

a.k.a. I/O

[CR400AF]

What I find is that ILE-Ne tends to be mistyped as INTP(Ti-Ne) in the broken MBTI theory. This is due to their socially awkwardness. Also they tend to have an obvious Fi-PoLR which is often mistakenly considered as Fi-demon in Beebe's model.