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Thread: The "ambivert" issue - conflicts between Socionic and Classical E/I

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    Default The "ambivert" issue - conflicts between Socionic and Classical E/I

    Of course, such "ambiverts" don't really exist. I'm talking of course of Extrovert Introtims and Introvert Extrotims.

    I mean, there are many conflicting definitions of E/I. No dichotomic trait pair is more polysemic than it.

    Classical E : outgoing, social, loud, afterthinking, public
    Classical I : reserved, lonely, quiet, forethinking, private

    Socionic E : active, energy-expanding, initiating, focus on bodies, gives others attention (like "electricity")
    Socionic I : passive, energy-saving, responding, focus on fields, attention-seeking (like "magnet")

    Most of the time (I think 62% or something), such definitions don't conflict. But on certain cases, they conflict. When they conflict, we can say that we're in an ambivert case.

    I mean, there are two types of ambiverts :

    - Extrovert Introtims
    - Introvert Extrotims

    When we're in such case, there's a risk of mistyping or self-mistyping.

    Examples of Extrovert Introtims (may contain errors)

    Nicolas Sarkozy
    Monica Lewinsky
    Catherine Zeta-Jones
    Theodore Roosevelt
    Sean Connery
    Marilyn Monroe
    Reese Witherspoon

    Examples of Introvert Extrotims (may contain errors)

    Adolf Hitler
    Albert Einstein
    Bill Gates
    Marlon Brando
    Gurdjieff


    Most likely ambiverts are : ILE, LSI, IEI, LIE, and IEE.

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    I'm LII - ENTJ myself.

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    *reads first post* Hm. *shrugs* With one exception, I always came out a classic I. I'm actually very social, but only on my terms, which does not involve being outgoing and socializing with the people physically around me. I tend to get my socialization on the comp.
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    I think I'm a classical E I and a socionic E I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think I'm a classical E I and a socionic E I
    Can you explain?
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Can you explain?
    I can be all those things depending on my mood or the circumstances that I find myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I can be all those things depending on my mood or the circumstances that I find myself
    Classical E/I is more correlated to neurotransmitter amounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    Classical E/I is more correlated to neurotransmitter amounts.
    Which means what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Which means what?
    serotonin, norepinephrin, and dopamin

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    serotonin, norepinephrin, and dopamin
    Not quite what I meant. How does E/I relate to it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Not quite what I meant. How does E/I relate to it?
    S+N+D higher = more lively = extrovert (not necessarily extrotim)

    Calculate your rates - they may be high, moderate, or low.

    Add 1 for each high rate, and subtract 1 for each low rate.

    If your "liveliness score" is positive, you're more likely an extrovert. If it's negative, you're more likely an introvert. If zero, then... one of both are possible.

    If you want to know the role of such neurotransmitters, you can search on Wikipedia or such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    serotonin, norepinephrin, and dopamin
    I've read that external signals received in the brain follow a different pathway for E and I. Also that E people are less sensitive to these chemicals you mention, which means they need to do more to get a 'buzz' of them.

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    @ machintruc: I already know their roles. Thanks, though. Norepinephrin is similar/somehow related to adrenaline, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    @ machintruc: I already know their roles. Thanks, though. Norepinephrin is similar/somehow related to adrenaline, right?
    Yes. Norepinephrin has a role in vigilance and concentration (as well as dopamin).

    When too low, you can't concentrate on anything, and your thinking process is "deliberate".

    When too high, you tend to concentrate or random and useless things, and your thinking process is "restless". You can't focus on adequate things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    Yes. Norepinephrin has a role in vigilance and concentration (as well as dopamin).

    When too low, you can't concentrate on anything, and your thinking process is "deliberate".

    When too high, you tend to concentrate or random and useless things, and your thinking process is "restless". You can't focus on adequate things.
    So what if you can concentrate on something if interested and can concentrate on useless/random things?

    And what about Es who prefer noise but physically feel better without it/can get overstimulated by it?
    Johari/Nohari

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    It's relevant to the thread so...

    The transcendent function has a great deal to do with "ambivert" scores on tests. (still working on what motivates it, though) Dual-type function pairings of E with I direct one to consider external information that can be directed toward controlling internal energies (how objects can control fields, specifically); I with E asks what internal situations can do to control external conditions, and considers only those observations or inferences that can are relevant to the control of objects. For example, what the the logical principles underlying a person's emotional state? Understand those and you can shape emotion somewhat, at least enough to dissuade what would otherwise be dangerous overreactions to seemingly frightening factual data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    Of course, such "ambiverts" don't really exist. I'm talking of course of Extrovert Introtims and Introvert Extrotims.

    I mean, there are many conflicting definitions of E/I. No dichotomic trait pair is more polysemic than it.

    Classical E : outgoing, social, loud, afterthinking, public
    Classical I : reserved, lonely, quiet, forethinking, private

    Socionic E : active, energy-expanding, initiating, focus on bodies, gives others attention (like "electricity")
    Socionic I : passive, energy-saving, responding, focus on fields, attention-seeking (like "magnet")

    Most of the time (I think 62% or something), such definitions don't conflict. But on certain cases, they conflict. When they conflict, we can say that we're in an ambivert case.
    According to those definitions, I am definitely Classical I and Socionic E. And that is the reason for most often testing as INTJ in MBTI and similar.

    I think that's an important issue.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    Of course, such "ambiverts" don't really exist. I'm talking of course of Extrovert Introtims and Introvert Extrotims.

    I mean, there are many conflicting definitions of E/I. No dichotomic trait pair is more polysemic than it.

    Classical E : outgoing, social, loud, afterthinking, public
    Classical I : reserved, lonely, quiet, forethinking, private

    Socionic E : active, energy-expanding, initiating, focus on bodies, gives others attention (like "electricity")
    Socionic I : passive, energy-saving, responding, focus on fields, attention-seeking (like "magnet")

    Most of the time (I think 62% or something), such definitions don't conflict. But on certain cases, they conflict. When they conflict, we can say that we're in an ambivert case.

    I mean, there are two types of ambiverts :

    - Extrovert Introtims
    - Introvert Extrotims

    When we're in such case, there's a risk of mistyping or self-mistyping.

    .
    I really doubt that there are "extrovert introtims" and "introvert extrotims". For example, Socionics tests usually measure classical E/I.

    http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_turbo_xl.html

    Often reserved and quiet?
    Outgoing and talkative?
    Appreciate solitude?
    etc.

    http://socionist.blogspot.se/2008/03...traverted.html

    "The extraverted introtim

    These people tend to be socially involved and feel comfortable expressing themselves publicly without feelings of self-consciousness. They tend not to think a lot or hesitate before speaking out loud and are highly verbal."

    Some introtims, like myself, are fairly comfortable expressing themselves in public etc. His argument assumes that there are only two levels; extroverted and introverted. But classical E/I is related to neurotransmitters, Dopamine etc, so there are many possible levels.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-28-2016 at 07:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    I really doubt that there are "extrovert introtims" and "introvert extrotims".
    I find the structure of this sentence very odd. Are you saying you doubt someone could be an extrovert in the common sense and an introvert in the socionic sense, and vice versa?
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I find the structure of this sentence very odd. Are you saying you doubt someone could be an extrovert in the common sense and an introvert in the socionic sense, and vice versa?
    He thinks that socionics and Myers-Briggs types are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    When an introverted extratim uses his creative function (and other introverted functions), he does so "carelessly" or "for fun" -- more just to get a kick out of it (suggestive function) or because he is in the mood at the moment (creative function). When an introtim uses his leading function, there is a sense of seriousness and greater concern and carefulness about what he is saying and doing.

    Compare, for instance, the playful theorizing of ILEs and SLEs with the weighty thoughts of LIIs and LSIs. Or the haphazard and situational emotionality of SEIs and IEIs with the deliberate and focused emotions of ESEs and EIEs. The situational technical solutions of SLIs and ILIs and the productivity and efficiency-based life philosophy of LIEs and LSEs. Or the playful and changeable friendliness of SEEs and IEEs with the long-term alliances and moral awareness of ESIs and EIIs.
    This is a VERY important point. Energy levels vary drastically within the same type. ( @Petter Rick was definitely not of the view that there are only two different levels, btw.) The main thing is to see which ego function is more important to someone (the leading function), and what someone is really unable to do (the suggestive function) with vs. what they can sort of do on their own, albeit clumsily (mobilzing function).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I find the structure of this sentence very odd. Are you saying you doubt someone could be an extrovert in the common sense and an introvert in the socionic sense, and vice versa?
    An introtim has a Leading white information aspect. Introversion in the common sense is used in Socionics as well, right?

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...hov_and_Tsypin

    This dichotomy, apparently, is a motivating one: it determines what "triggers" information metabolism. For the extrovert the "trigger" occurs when a signal is received about events in the outside world, while for the introvert – with a change in his inner condition.

    Definition:

    Extraversion – the predominant motivation of thinking by developments in the outside world.

    Introversion – the predominant motivation of thinking by intrapersonal (or individual) factors.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-31-2016 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    He thinks that socionics and Myers-Briggs types are the same.
    No, I don't think the types themselves are the same. Descriptions of types by socionists differ from descriptions of types by MBTI typologists. But a socionics type corresponds to exactly one MBTI type; ILI corresponds to INTJ etc.

    @Petter Rick was definitely not of the view that there are only two different levels, btw
    I don't think that was his view, but he argues (in the blog post) as if there are only two levels.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-31-2016 at 05:09 PM.

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    Originally posted by Rick:

    When an introverted extratim uses his creative function (and other introverted functions), he does so "carelessly" or "for fun" -- more just to get a kick out of it (suggestive function) or because he is in the mood at the moment (creative function). When an introtim uses his leading function, there is a sense of seriousness and greater concern and carefulness about what he is saying and doing.

    Compare, for instance, the playful theorizing of ILEs and SLEs with the weighty thoughts of LIIs and LSIs. Or the haphazard and situational emotionality of SEIs and IEIs with the deliberate and focused emotions of ESEs and EIEs. The situational technical solutions of SLIs and ILIs and the productivity and efficiency-based life philosophy of LIEs and LSEs. Or the playful and changeable friendliness of SEEs and IEEs with the long-term alliances and moral awareness of ESIs and EIIs.
    @thehotelambush I don't know where you found this quote. I absolutely give it the thumbs up.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Originally posted by Rick:


    @thehotelambush I don't know where you found this quote. I absolutely give it the thumbs up.
    That's from the blog post linked above

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    I don't understand Rick's argument. He's saying an extratims will use their introverted functions "carelessly" or "for fun" while introtims will use their introverted functions with "a sense of seriousness and greater concern and carefulness about what he is saying and doing".

    But the example suggest more of a J vs P dichotomy:

    "Compare, for instance, the playful theorizing of ILEs and SLEs with the weighty thoughts of LIIs and LSIs. Or the haphazard and situational emotionality of SEIs and IEIs with the deliberate and focused emotions of ESEs and EIEs. The situational technical solutions of SLIs and ILIs and the productivity and efficiency-based life philosophy of LIEs and LSEs. Or the playful and changeable friendliness of SEEs and IEEs with the long-term alliances and moral awareness of ESIs and EIIs."

    Moreover, in the introtims we have "weighty thoughts" and "long-term alliances", but then we have "haphazard and situational emotionality" and "situational technical solutions". The introtims-acting-with-a-sense-of-seriousness backflips.

    And why, to illustrate his case, does he use extroverted functions? (Fe for SEI/IEI vs ESE/EIE and Te for SLI/ILI vs LIE/LSE)
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    As an introvert extratim I used to think the idea of introversion and extraversion in psychology was nonsense since my scores on things like MBTI and Big 5 were all over the place from one extreme to another, which I related to an extravert introtim and got hearty agreement. Then, I learned socionics and looked back in shame. The whole "50% of the population is ambiverts" is easily explainable in terms of socionics if everyone gets introvert/extravert and introtim/extratim at random, and then only introvert intratrim and extravert extratim are actually considered introverts and extraverts with the rest as ambiverts, but I haven't posted that before because I thought it was obvious and wanted to focus on other things. The irritating thing is that apparently introtims are allowed to call themselves introverts while acting extremely gregarious and outgoing, but I have to call myself an ambivert because introvert extratims are

    71e402f30c2b741ecd69ba3ae4baf90bb45b7443c52422de88cf02f4802a5a19.jpg

    THIS IS DISCRIMINATION! DISCRIMINATION I SAY!

    P.S. Gotta love how the first example of introvert extratim is ol' Adi...

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    LoL @ you ppl for bumping a thread over 8 years old. scary thought.... babies born that time are now going to be 9 this coming march. Time moves by too fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I don't understand Rick's argument. He's saying an extratims will use their introverted functions "carelessly" or "for fun" while introtims will use their introverted functions with "a sense of seriousness and greater concern and carefulness about what he is saying and doing".
    But the example suggest more of a J vs P dichotomy:
    "Compare, for instance, the playful theorizing of ILEs and SLEs with the weighty thoughts of LIIs and LSIs. Or the haphazard and situational emotionality of SEIs and IEIs with the deliberate and focused emotions of ESEs and EIEs. The situational technical solutions of SLIs and ILIs and the productivity and efficiency-based life philosophy of LIEs and LSEs. Or the playful and changeable friendliness of SEEs and IEEs with the long-term alliances and moral awareness of ESIs and EIIs."
    Moreover, in the introtims we have "weighty thoughts" and "long-term alliances", but then we have "haphazard and situational emotionality" and "situational technical solutions". The introtims-acting-with-a-sense-of-seriousness backflips.
    And why, to illustrate his case, does he use extroverted functions? (Fe for SEI/IEI vs ESE/EIE and Te for SLI/ILI vs LIE/LSE)

    I agree with Rick that ILEs theorize in a playful manner. But that is not because their introverted functions are used carelessly. It is because Ti is a producing function. And an accepting Ne makes ILE appear playful when it comes to theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    As an introvert extratim I used to think the idea of introversion and extraversion in psychology was nonsense since my scores on things like MBTI and Big 5 were all over the place from one extreme to another, which I related to an extravert introtim and got hearty agreement. Then, I learned socionics and looked back in shame. The whole "50% of the population is ambiverts" is easily explainable in terms of socionics if everyone gets introvert/extravert and introtim/extratim at random, and then only introvert intratrim and extravert extratim are actually considered introverts and extraverts with the rest as ambiverts, but I haven't posted that before because I thought it was obvious and wanted to focus on other things. The irritating thing is that apparently introtims are allowed to call themselves introverts while acting extremely gregarious and outgoing, but I have to call myself an ambivert because introvert extratims are...
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/intro...ork-kurt-cagle

    "Perhaps about 60% of all people are extraverted, with perhaps 25% then being introverted and 15% being ambiverted. "

    Are you saying that there are extroverted INTJs, INFJs, ISFJs etc (in MBTI)?

    Do you claim that an introtim in Socionics can be an extroverted type in MBTI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Are you saying that there are extroverted INTJs, INFJs, ISFJs etc (in MBTI)?

    Do you claim that an introtim in Socionics can be an extroverted type in MBTI?
    Yes and yes. I don't live in ivory-towerland and I know a lot of people who do these tests and discuss them (it seems to be a popular conversation topic generally). And as I said, I got both introvert types and extravert types in MBTI, sometimes very high scores either direction (based on whether I'd rather read a book or go to a party at the time, since that seems to be what those questions are about). So logically either one or the other would have to be true, but I think both are because MBTI is just kind of nonsense...

    Those statistics are also pretty outdated, and the article doesn't describe real people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I don't understand Rick's argument. He's saying an extratims will use their introverted functions "carelessly" or "for fun" while introtims will use their introverted functions with "a sense of seriousness and greater concern and carefulness about what he is saying and doing".

    But the example suggest more of a J vs P dichotomy:

    "Compare, for instance, the playful theorizing of ILEs and SLEs with the weighty thoughts of LIIs and LSIs. Or the haphazard and situational emotionality of SEIs and IEIs with the deliberate and focused emotions of ESEs and EIEs. The situational technical solutions of SLIs and ILIs and the productivity and efficiency-based life philosophy of LIEs and LSEs. Or the playful and changeable friendliness of SEEs and IEEs with the long-term alliances and moral awareness of ESIs and EIIs."

    Moreover, in the introtims we have "weighty thoughts" and "long-term alliances", but then we have "haphazard and situational emotionality" and "situational technical solutions". The introtims-acting-with-a-sense-of-seriousness backflips.

    And why, to illustrate his case, does he use extroverted functions? (Fe for SEI/IEI vs ESE/EIE and Te for SLI/ILI vs LIE/LSE)
    The point is to contrast the greater significance of the leading function with the creative/non-constant/less significant quality of the creative function. Creative Ti vs leading Ti etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Yes and yes. I don't live in ivory-towerland and I know a lot of people who do these tests and discuss them (it seems to be a popular conversation topic generally). And as I said, I got both introvert types and extravert types in MBTI, sometimes very high scores either direction (based on whether I'd rather read a book or go to a party at the time, since that seems to be what those questions are about). So logically either one or the other would have to be true, but I think both are because MBTI is just kind of nonsense...

    Those statistics are also pretty outdated, and the article doesn't describe real people.
    Okay, so you are saying that confirmed extroverts sometimes test as INTJ, INFJ or ISFJ etc. But you are not saying that a confirmed extrovert can actually have Ni as the dominant function in MBTI, or a Leading white information aspect in Socionics, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Okay, so you are saying that confirmed extroverts sometimes test as INTJ, INFJ or ISFJ etc. But you are not saying that a confirmed extrovert can actually have Ni as the dominant function in MBTI, or a Leading white information aspect in Socionics, right?
    Well, I think MBTI is nonsense but if it weren't, then no, and the same goes for introverts testing as ENTJ, ENFJ, ESFJ etc. since in socionics (as well as even recent statistics outside of socionics) there are a lot more introverts and "extraverted until proven otherwise" is a bad idea. As to the latter, that's a logical contradiction, since socionics introversion and extraversion are defined by the leading function, not by how socially extraverted someone acts. There are a lot of IEE social introverts and SLI social extraverts, for example, and even social ambiverts (there seem to be a lot of EIE social ambiverts here, for instance).

    Also this: http://www.sociotype.com/tools/statistics/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Well, I think MBTI is nonsense
    Why do you think MBTI is nonsense?

    but if it weren't, then no, and the same goes for introverts testing as ENTJ, ENFJ, ESFJ etc.
    Good

    since in socionics (as well as even recent statistics outside of socionics) there are a lot more introverts and "extraverted until proven otherwise" is a bad idea.
    Are there more introverts than extroverts in Socionics? Can you provide an article that supports this view?

    As to the latter, that's a logical contradiction, since socionics introversion and extraversion are defined by the leading function
    No, it is not. Intratimness and extratimness is defined by the Leading function. See post 21 (including link)

    , not by how socially extraverted someone acts. There are a lot of IEE social introverts and SLI social extraverts, for example, and even social ambiverts (there seem to be a lot of EIE social ambiverts here, for instance).
    Can you define "social extraversion"?

    What are you referring to?

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    This is SSS's view:

    Extraversion is the attitude, i.e. "the movement of interest directed to the object". Extrovert is the sequence of aspects: BWBW|WBWB

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    SSS:

    "In theory, there are accepting and producing functions (we recently discussed). So the movement of interest directed to the object is just objective (essence) leading function. Another words it is just about sequence of elements. From this sequence will depend on whether we call type extroverted or introverted. This sequence does have some influence on people's behavior. This can be called attitude, yes. But this influence controversial. It can not always be described as simple as 'open minded' or 'talkative'. Socionic extraversion better to call extraTIM (to avoid confusion)."

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    According to those definitions I'm... air... maybe.
    Ambiversion is essentially reaction to black and with extroversion and introversion stereotyping. Besides, being ethical vs logical is oftn mixed up as well to this.
    When most people claim to refer to Jung they almost never use Jung's own definition. Oh the y (chemistry jokes combined with socionics ftw. There needs to be one special crowd to understand them.)
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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    because enneagram is just too simple and therefore we need to develop a new classification system called Rhombic triacontahedron with life module containing eukaryotes, prokaryotes and virus.

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